Are Player Defenses too high

[Glacier Peak]

14 hours ago, Hero_of_Light said:

I don't see a 'in pvp' option on the vote 😞 [answer= def is crap in pvp]

 

In PvE I think it's fine as is, unless incarnate abilities are used, but that's everything and not just def.

 

I like the idea but I feel like incarnate abilities should maybe offer scaled benifits when not doing incarnate stuff.

Can you elaborate on your "def is crap in pvp" statement for me? I am not disagreeing with you, and I know that damage output is king in pvp, but what makes defense crap for pvp?

[Solarverse]

Honestly, I miss the days when only Super Reflexes had insane defense. Now, almost any build can cap defense. The game is so broken now there simply isn't any fixing it. At this point you just play it for what it is and have fun. The days of me caring about what is too high are long gone. It's too broken to fix IMO.

[Hero_of_Light]

4 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Can you elaborate on your "def is crap in pvp" statement for me? I am not disagreeing with you, and I know that damage output is king in pvp, but what makes defense crap for pvp?

Builds focusing on Def get melted pretty easy since It's really easy to bypass def, plus just being in pvp brings your def stats down too.

[Solarverse]

4 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Builds focusing on Def get melted pretty easy since It's really easy to bypass def, plus just being in pvp brings your def stats down too.

Man, I am not trying to pick a fight with you, so just want to get that out there. I do want to say that Defense in PvP is a HUGE factor though. People without high defense melt. Unless Homecoming has done something different with PvP in this game, you can';t go in PvP with a defense weak build or you won't last very long. Regen can pull it off to a degree because if you stack Resist with Regen it works wonders, however, any other build will need to cap defense or else they simply won't be able to hold their own.

[Hero_of_Light]

6 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Man, I am not trying to pick a fight with you, so just want to get that out there. I do want to say that Defense in PvP is a HUGE factor though. People without high defense melt. Unless Homecoming has done something different with PvP in this game, you can';t go in PvP with a defense weak build or you won't last very long. Regen can pull it off to a degree because if you stack Resist with Regen it works wonders, however, any other build will need to cap defense or else they simply won't be able to hold their own.

All good haha.  It's just my thoughts after making a pretty good min/maxed SR build and unless I use elude or the incarnate bubble, I get hit 8 out of 10 times while I can run any +4/8 content in pve that ive tried so far.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Hero_of_Light

[Solarverse]

3 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

All good haha.  It's just my thoughts after making a pretty good min/maxed SR build and unless I use elude or the incarnate bubble, I get hit 8 out of 10 times 

I used Energy Aura for my Stalker on the Cake Server and was practically a living god. Psi/EA was just insane and I was very hard to kill, even for Regen Scrappers who are usually a Stalker's bane. My suggestion is to stack more resist with SR so that SR's natural scaling resist stacks with the resist you build in to it with set bonuses. SR's lack of a self heal hurts the set in PvP, which is why I went with EA. Not to mention, EA has practical immunity to every CC in game, which gives it a HUGE advantage in PvP. However, if SR is your thing (I get it, I used to be in love with SR in the old days, in those days I was a living god in PvP, taking on 4 to 5 players at once was insane) be sure to pick up a self heal.

[macskull]

Defense in PvP has the unique problem of being at the mercy of luck far more than resist-based or regen/heal-based builds.. Someone playing a resist-based build knows they're probably going to get hit most or all of the time but they'll reduce that incoming damage by a fixed amount. With a defense-based character, your attacker could have a 40% chance to hit you and get lucky four times in a row, or they could whiff all four times. It isn't as reliable a form of mitigation as resistance/regen/heal/absorb in PvP because unlike in PvE your opponents are going to have lots of acc and tohit bonuses. That being said, elusivity does make a pretty noticeable difference, and the effective DR cap on tohit bonuses for any AT is way lower than the effective DR cap on defense for melee ATs.

[Hero_of_Light]

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I used Energy Aura for my Stalker on the Cake Server and was practically a living god. Psi/EA was just insane and I was very hard to kill, even for Regen Scrappers who are usually a Stalker's bane. My suggestion is to stack more resist with SR so that SR's natural scaling resist stacks with the resist you build in to it with set bonuses. SR's lack of a self heal hurts the set in PvP, which is why I went with EA. Not to mention, EA has practical immunity to every CC in game, which gives it a HUGE advantage in PvP. However, if SR is your thing (I get it, I used to be in love with SR in the old days, in those days I was a living god in PvP, taking on 4 to 5 players at once was insane) be sure to pick up a self heal.

I definitely noticed the need for a self heal haha. I have a energy aura in working on that I think will out perform SR when I'm done with it.

 

If you're willing and able, I could send you my mids build and show you what I'm packing. I think for a pretty good min/max going on,  but if I messed some things up I'd love to fix it.

[Solarverse]

10 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

I definitely noticed the need for a self heal haha. I have a energy aura in working on that I think will out perform SR when I'm done with it.

 

If you're willing and able, I could send you my mids build and show you what I'm packing. I think for a pretty good min/max going on,  but if I messed some things up I'd love to fix it.

This build can most certainly be improved, I made this build almost a year ago but have not updated it since then. However, it gives you a pretty good idea of what you can achieve.

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Ghost: Level 50 Magic Stalker
Primary Power Set: Psionic Melee
Secondary Power Set: Energy Aura
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Blaze Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Mental Strike -- SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAssMar-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), SprAssMar-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprAssMar-Rchg/Rchg Build Up(11)
Level 1: Hide -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 2: Psi Blade -- OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg(A), OvrFrc-End/Rech(13), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End(13), OvrFrc-Dmg/End/Rech(15), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(15), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(17)
Level 4: Telekinetic Blow -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(17), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(21), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(21)
Level 6: Assassin's Psi Blade -- SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprStlGl-Dmg/Rchg(7), SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), SprStlGl-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), SprStlGl-Rchg/Hide%(11)
Level 8: Concentration -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 10: Entropy Shield -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Placate -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 14: Kinetic Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(25), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31), LucoftheG-Def(33), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(33)
Level 16: Power Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(31), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33), LucoftheG-Def(34), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(34)
Level 18: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 20: Kinetic Dampening -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(34), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(36), RctArm-ResDam(36)
Level 22: Combat Jumping -- ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(A), Rct-ResDam%(36), LucoftheG-Def(37), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(37), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(39)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 26: Greater Psi Blade -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(27), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), Hct-Acc/Rchg(29), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(29), Hct-Dam%(31)
Level 28: Energy Drain -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(39), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40), LucoftheG-Def(40), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(40)
Level 30: Stealth -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 32: Mass Levitate -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(42), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 35: Energize -- NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(A), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(37), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(43), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(43), NmnCnv-Heal(46)
Level 38: Overload -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 41: Ring of Fire -- Acc-I(A)
Level 44: Fire Blast -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(45), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(46), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(46)
Level 47: Fire Ball -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(48), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(50), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(50)
Level 49: Recall Friend -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Assassination
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Run-I(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(25)
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 50: Resilient Core Paragon
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment
Level 50: Diamagnetic Core Flawless Interface
------------
------------
Set Bonus Totals:

• 11% DamageBuff(Smashing)
• 11% DamageBuff(Lethal)
• 11% DamageBuff(Fire)
• 11% DamageBuff(Cold)
• 11% DamageBuff(Energy)
• 11% DamageBuff(Negative)
• 11% DamageBuff(Toxic)
• 11% DamageBuff(Psionic)
• 18.5% Defense(Smashing)
• 18.5% Defense(Lethal)
• 26% Defense(Fire)
• 26% Defense(Cold)
• 13.5% Defense(Energy)
• 13.5% Defense(Negative)
• 6% Defense(Psionic)
• 16% Defense(Melee)
• 9.75% Defense(Ranged)
• 23.5% Defense(AoE)
• 72% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 60% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 6% Enhancement(Heal)
• 94.87 HP (7.88%) HitPoints
• Knockback (Mag -4)
• Knockup (Mag -4)
• MezResist(Confused) 97.5%
• MezResist(Held) 97.5%
• MezResist(Immobilized) 97.5%
• MezResist(Sleep) 97.5%
• MezResist(Stunned) 97.5%
• MezResist(Terrorized) 97.5%
• MezResist(Teleport) 100% (20% chance)
• 20% (0.33 End/sec) Recovery
• 64% (3.21 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 60% ResEffect(SpeedFlying)
• 60% ResEffect(RechargeTime)
• 60% ResEffect(SpeedRunning)
• 30.5% Resistance(Smashing)
• 30.5% Resistance(Lethal)
• 38% Resistance(Fire)
• 38% Resistance(Cold)
• 8% Resistance(Energy)
• 8% Resistance(Negative)
• 14% Resistance(Toxic)
• 14% Resistance(Psionic)
  

 

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[Solarverse]

14 minutes ago, macskull said:

Defense in PvP has the unique problem of being at the mercy of luck far more than resist-based or regen/heal-based builds.. Someone playing a resist-based build knows they're probably going to get hit most or all of the time but they'll reduce that incoming damage by a fixed amount. With a defense-based character, your attacker could have a 40% chance to hit you and get lucky four times in a row, or they could whiff all four times. It isn't as reliable a form of mitigation as resistance/regen/heal/absorb in PvP because unlike in PvE your opponents are going to have lots of acc and tohit bonuses. That being said, elusivity does make a pretty noticeable difference, and the effective DR cap on tohit bonuses for any AT is way lower than the effective DR cap on defense for melee ATs.

I agree, it's always a good idea to have a well rounded build, defense/resist +Self Heal or Regen/Both.

I find most of the damage comes from Damage Procs. I messed around with Psi Blade and put three different damage procs in Greater Psi Blade and can pretty much 2 shot anyone I target...with exceptions of course. Just straight up lethal.

[Solarverse]

48 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

I definitely noticed the need for a self heal haha. I have a energy aura in working on that I think will out perform SR when I'm done with it.

 

If you're willing and able, I could send you my mids build and show you what I'm packing. I think for a pretty good min/max going on,  but if I messed some things up I'd love to fix it.

 

Bah, that was my PvE build, sorry about that. Here is the PvP version.

P.S. Would love to see your build.
 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Ghost PvP: Level 50 Science Stalker
Primary Power Set: Psionic Melee
Secondary Power Set: Energy Aura
Power Pool: Force of Will
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Mental Strike -- SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAssMar-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), SprAssMar-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprAssMar-Rchg/Rchg Build Up(7)
Level 1: Hide -- Rct-ResDam%(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(27), Rct-Def(48), Rct-Def/EndRdx(48), Rct-Def/Rchg(48)
Level 2: Psi Blade -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(13), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(15), Mk'Bit-Dam%(40)
Level 4: Telekinetic Blow -- GldStr-Acc/Dmg(A), GldStr-Dam/Rech(17), GldStr-Dam/End/Rech(17), GldStr-Acc/End/Rech(19), GldStr-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(19), GldStr-%Dam(21)
Level 6: Assassin's Psi Blade -- SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprStlGl-Dmg/Rchg(7), SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), SprStlGl-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), SprStlGl-Rchg/Hide%(11)
Level 8: Concentration -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Kinetic Shield -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(21), ShlWal-EndRdx/Rchg(23), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), ShlWal-Def(25), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(25)
Level 12: Placate -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 14: Power Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(31), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(34), LucoftheG-Def(36), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(36)
Level 16: Entropy Shield -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Kinetic Dampening -- GldArm-ResDam(A), GldArm-Res/Rech/End(27), GldArm-End/Res(29), GldArm-3defTpProc(29), GldArm-RechEnd(31), GldArm-RechRes(31)
Level 20: Mighty Leap -- Jump-I(A)
Level 22: Super Speed -- Run-I(A)
Level 24: Stealth -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 26: Greater Psi Blade -- Hct-Dmg(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(36), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Hct-Acc/Rchg(37), TchofDth-Dam%(37), Hct-Dam%(40)
Level 28: Energy Drain -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50), EndMod-I(50), EndMod-I(50)
Level 30: Invisibility -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Mass Levitate -- FuroftheG-Acc/Dmg(A), FuroftheG-Dam/Rech(33), FuroftheG-Dam/End/Rech(33), FuroftheG-Acc/End/Rech(33), FuroftheG-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(34), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(34)
Level 35: Energize -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(43), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(45), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(45), Pnc-Heal(45), Pnc-Heal/+End(46)
Level 38: Moonbeam -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(39), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Dark Blast -- GldJvl-Acc/Dmg(A), GldJvl-Dam/Rech(42), GldJvl-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(42), GldJvl-Dam%(42), GldJvl-Acc/End/Rech(43), GldJvl-Dam/End/Rech(43)
Level 44: Maneuvers -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 47: Tactics -- ToHit-I(A)
Level 49: Overload -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Assassination
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Run-I(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(46), PrfShf-End%(46)
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 0: Born In Battle
Level 0: High Pain Threshold
Level 0: Invader
Level 0: Marshal
Level 50: Resilient Core Paragon
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment
Level 50: Diamagnetic Core Flawless Interface
------------
------------
Set Bonus Totals:

• 18% DamageBuff(Smashing)
• 18% DamageBuff(Lethal)
• 18% DamageBuff(Fire)
• 18% DamageBuff(Cold)
• 18% DamageBuff(Energy)
• 18% DamageBuff(Negative)
• 18% DamageBuff(Toxic)
• 18% DamageBuff(Psionic)
• 17.69% Defense(Smashing)
• 17.69% Defense(Lethal)
• 8.63% Defense(Fire)
• 8.63% Defense(Cold)
• 12.38% Defense(Energy)
• 12.38% Defense(Negative)
• 3% Defense(Psionic)
• 12.69% Defense(Melee)
• 9.56% Defense(Ranged)
• 9.56% Defense(AoE)
• 4.5% Max End
• 15% Enhancement(Range)
• 6% Enhancement(Heal)
• 80% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 75% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 171.7 HP (14.26%) HitPoints
• Knockback (Mag -9)
• Knockup (Mag -9)
• MezResist(Confused) 127.5%
• MezResist(Held) 127.5%
• MezResist(Immobilized) 127.5%
• MezResist(Repel) 5000% (10% chance)
• MezResist(Sleep) 127.5%
• MezResist(Stunned) 127.5%
• MezResist(Terrorized) 127.5%
• MezResist(Teleport) 100% (20% chance)
• 28.5% (0.48 End/sec) Recovery
• 30% (1.51 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 60% ResEffect(SpeedFlying)
• 60% ResEffect(RechargeTime)
• 60% ResEffect(SpeedRunning)
• 34.25% Resistance(Smashing)
• 34.25% Resistance(Lethal)
• 35.75% Resistance(Fire)
• 35.75% Resistance(Cold)
• 19.25% Resistance(Energy)
• 19.25% Resistance(Negative)
• 19.25% Resistance(Toxic)
• 19.25% Resistance(Psionic)

 

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Edited June 5, 2020 by Solarverse

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Hero_of_Light said:

I definitely noticed the need for a self heal haha. I have a energy aura in working on that I think will out perform SR when I'm done with it.

 

If you're willing and able, I could send you my mids build and show you what I'm packing. I think for a pretty good min/max going on,  but if I messed some things up I'd love to fix it.

EA already outperforms SR because it gets almost as much defense, some decent resistance right out of the gate, and Overload gives extra elusivity (it is the only t9 that does this).

 

EDIT: There's also a balance aspect to defense in PvP, and between elusivity and diminishing returns I don't think it's in a terrible spot. Elusivity values could probably use a bit of tweaking - they're currently at 10% and I think they were originally at 20% or 30% when I13 dropped and it made defense-based builds way too good. You can't just have so much defense that you completely floor your opponent's chance to hit because at that point you're basically unkillable, but anything less feels weak to the player with the defense-based build.

Edited June 5, 2020 by macskull

[Glacier Peak]

9 hours ago, macskull said:

EA already outperforms SR because it gets almost as much defense, some decent resistance right out of the gate, and Overload gives extra elusivity (it is the only t9 that does this).

 

EDIT: There's also a balance aspect to defense in PvP, and between elusivity and diminishing returns I don't think it's in a terrible spot. Elusivity values could probably use a bit of tweaking - they're currently at 10% and I think they were originally at 20% or 30% when I13 dropped and it made defense-based builds way too good. You can't just have so much defense that you completely floor your opponent's chance to hit because at that point you're basically unkillable, but anything less feels weak to the player with the defense-based build.

With Brute hard capped defense being around 225% (both situational and typed)  - at what point will the game guarantee that only a 5% chance to-hit will occur? I know 45% seems to work well in PvE. With Elusivity in PvP, and on a defense focused SR Brute, that cap isn't terribly hard to attain - assuming no debuffs in play from another player, what is that magic number to only allow them a 5% chance to hit you?

[MrCuddles]

What solves this problem for me is more challenging end game content. Content that is hard to beat aven for 50+3 characters with ios.

 

I get around it by running hard content with smaller teams of 2-4 which gives me the challenge, and the personal impact on a team I like to have.

[macskull]

7 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

With Brute hard capped defense being around 225% (both situational and typed)  - at what point will the game guarantee that only a 5% chance to-hit will occur? I know 45% seems to work well in PvE. With Elusivity in PvP, and on a defense focused SR Brute, that cap isn't terribly hard to attain - assuming no debuffs in play from another player, what is that magic number to only allow them a 5% chance to hit you?

It is extremely hard to guarantee a 5% chance for another player to hit you - you likely couldn't get your defenses high enough, and accuracy is applied after the 5% clamp. If the enemy player had no acc slotted, no acc bonuses, and no sources of tohit, and you had 45% defense, your opponent would have a 5% chance to hit you. That being said, in order to actually get to 45% defense in PvP you'd need to have 77% defense in PvE because of diminishing returns. This is pretty much unattainable without either outside buffs or being in Elude, Overload, Retsu, or whatever other defense-based T9 you could be running. So here's where we are so far:

• You need 77% defense pre-DR to get to 45% defense in PvP.
• 45% is only a magic number if your opponent has no accuracy slotted in their attacks, no global acc bonus, and no sources of tohit.

So let's figure out accuracy and tohit and how that'll work into the equation, but this discussion is going to be hypothetical since there are a myriad of ways powers can be slotted, some powers have a higher base accuracy, etc. We'll start with tohit, and we'll assume that the attacker is a Blaster running ED-capped Tactics (10% base, enhanced to about 16%) and a Kismet IO (6%). That's a total of about 22% tohit, which after factoring in diminishing returns gives us about 16%. With that 16% extra tohit you now need 61% defense (45+16) to keep your attacker's chance to hit at 5%. Not bad, right? Well.. to hit 61% defense after diminishing returns you'd need roughly 245% defense pre-DR, which is possible but you'd need a team of buffers or several T4 purple inspirations to get there. "But that's above the hard cap," you're saying, and you're right, but the game continues to calculate values past the hard cap and applies DR to that value. So here's where we are with some tohit in the mix:

• If your target has 16% tohit after DR, you need to add an extra 16% defense on top of the 45% you already have.
• In order to get there, you'd need to go to extreme lengths so it isn't practical for anything other than a minute or two here or there.

Now we'll move on to accuracy. The PvP formula for chance to hit is this:

HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × (1 - TargetElusivity) × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )

where

AccMods  =  the power's inherent Accuracy  ×  (1.0 + the power's Accuracy Enhancements + all global Set Accuracy bonuses)

As an SR character you get 10% elusivity in your defense toggles (but no extra in Elude). We will assume, for our purposes here, that your attacker has slotted 66% acc into their attacks and has 50% global acc bonus. I picked those numbers as reasonable guesses because most PvP-centric builds will build for enough acc to get 95% hit rolls against a ranged AT with a small amount of defense, and those acc numbers will make that happen. With that combination of tohit, acc slotting, and global acc bonus, your attacker will end up with a 9.72% chance to hit you. If you decided that you couldn't make 61% defense and stuck it out with 45%, your attacker would have a 40.82% chance to hit you.

Edited June 5, 2020 by macskull

[capricorpse]

maybe the higher difficulty settings should be dramatically higher, so that they test upper-tier builds more, without making the leveling content too rough.  A lot of people do NOT play optimized builds and have little interest in it, so much of the game rewards creativity over distilled numbers.  We don't want solo/casual players to be punished for not having the time or resources to optimize every character.  But i recognize a lot of people do like to get super tight with their build, and it's impressive.  They shouldn't be barred out of enjoying the content for being good at putting solid builds together.

 

So i guess adjusting the difficulty scaling would be the answer that gets closest to addressing the issue that some people have but not everyone. 

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

It is extremely hard to guarantee a 5% chance for another player to hit you - you likely couldn't get your defenses high enough, and accuracy is applied after the 5% clamp. If the enemy player had no acc slotted, no acc bonuses, and no sources of tohit, and you had 45% defense, your opponent would have a 5% chance to hit you. That being said, in order to actually get to 45% defense in PvP you'd need to have 77% defense in PvE because of diminishing returns. This is pretty much unattainable without either outside buffs or being in Elude, Overload, Retsu, or whatever other defense-based T9 you could be running. So here's where we are so far:

• You need 77% defense pre-DR to get to 45% defense in PvP.
• 45% is only a magic number if your opponent has no accuracy slotted in their attacks, no global acc bonus, and no sources of tohit.

So let's figure out accuracy and tohit and how that'll work into the equation, but this discussion is going to be hypothetical since there are a myriad of ways powers can be slotted, some powers have a higher base accuracy, etc. We'll start with tohit, and we'll assume that the attacker is a Blaster running ED-capped Tactics (10% base, enhanced to about 16%) and a Kismet IO (6%). That's a total of about 22% tohit, which after factoring in diminishing returns gives us about 16%. With that 16% extra tohit you now need 61% defense (45+16) to keep your attacker's chance to hit at 5%. Not bad, right? Well.. to hit 61% defense after diminishing returns you'd need roughly 245% defense pre-DR, which is possible but you'd need a team of buffers or several T4 purple inspirations to get there. "But that's above the hard cap," you're saying, and you're right, but the game continues to calculate values past the hard cap and applies DR to that value. So here's where we are with some tohit in the mix:

• If your target has 16% tohit after DR, you need to add an extra 16% defense on top of the 45% you already have.
• In order to get there, you'd need to go to extreme lengths so it isn't practical for anything other than a minute or two here or there.

Now we'll move on to accuracy. The PvP formula for chance to hit is this:

HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × (1 - TargetElusivity) × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )

where

AccMods  =  the power's inherent Accuracy  ×  (1.0 + the power's Accuracy Enhancements + all global Set Accuracy bonuses)

As an SR character you get 10% elusivity in your defense toggles (but no extra in Elude). We will assume, for our purposes here, that your attacker has slotted 66% acc into their attacks and has 50% global acc bonus. I picked those numbers as reasonable guesses because most PvP-centric builds will build for enough acc to get 95% hit rolls against a ranged AT with a small amount of defense, and those acc numbers will make that happen. With that combination of tohit, acc slotting, and global acc bonus, your attacker will end up with a 9.72% chance to hit you. If you decided that you couldn't make 61% defense and stuck it out with 45%, your attacker would have a 40.82% chance to hit you.

Mac, thank you for all of this. I did not know that DR affected defense so much. I remember seeing a scaling table for defense on the PvP Discord, along with other values, but I am just surprised when you lay out the math like that. And I did not realize accuracy was applied AFTER the 5% clamp, wow! Makes so much more sense with the transition from PvE to PvP - defense centric characters get hit much more in PvP than the latter.

[macskull]

15 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Mac, thank you for all of this. I did not know that DR affected defense so much. I remember seeing a scaling table for defense on the PvP Discord, along with other values, but I am just surprised when you lay out the math like that. And I did not realize accuracy was applied AFTER the 5% clamp, wow! Makes so much more sense with the transition from PvE to PvP - defense centric characters get hit much more in PvP than the latter.

The concept of diminishing returns isn't too hard to understand, but the application of it is next to impossible unless you know the math and what attributes scale in what way on what AT. Even the in-game combat attributes don't correctly reflect DR for some things (recharge and damage are the two big offenders but there are several more). As an example, given 45% defense in PvE, that will DR to about 33% for melee ATs, 18.26% for all ranged ATs (including Sentinels, which means defense-based Sentinel builds get really hosed), and about 28% for Warshades (yes, they have their own DR curves for defense and resistance for some strange reason). Tohit DR's at the same rate for all ATs, and it follows the same curve as ranged AT defense.

 

Also worth noting, accuracy bonuses apply after the 5% clamp in PvE as well. 45% defense is thrown around as a magic number because in the absence of enemy tohit buffs anything over that is "useless" but in reality even with 45%+ defense you're going to see most enemies will have hit chances above 5%, sometimes as high as 10.5% - and there's nothing you can do to make that any lower. Enemies get acc bonuses based on their rank and relative level to you, which is a way of ensuring defense isn't too good - as you fight higher-level or higher-rank enemies your 45% defense isn't as effective as it would be against lower-level/rank enemies.

 

So, I guess, to answer the OP's question of "are player defenses too high?" - no, I don't think so, and the game already has a mechanism in place to ensure defense is less powerful when you're fighting more difficult enemies.

[ZeeHero]

On 5/17/2020 at 10:51 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

I agree that the combat mechanics can be... archaic, but there is a line to be drawn where continual buffs no longer "work" as it gets kinda ridiculous. 

 

The Force Field example I feel is  a good one as the more people who slot for personal defenses, the less and less value that set has and there isn't much buffing you could do to the set to help out in that regard. 

The solution to that is not nerfs, but buffs to force field. Force Field should be granting affected players a small amount of absorb every second.

[Black Zot]

12 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

The solution to that is not nerfs, but buffs to force field. Force Field should be granting affected players a small amount of absorb every second.

 

Good luck convincing the nerfherders who think threads like this are justified of that point.

[Leo_G]

4 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

Good luck convincing the nerfherders who think threads like this are justified of that point.

Justified? Are you saying the argument has no merit? 

 

Well here's an attempt to help you share their perspective: once you get your IO build over soft cap and you've got a fair amount of resistance to survive most +4/x8 encounters without taking into account incarnate, what effects do you start focusing on? Do you take barrier? Do you aim for even more resistance? Do you pivot toward +Regen?

 

... Or perhaps you start to value +rech or damage instead?

 

When you get a couple of effective supports like Time or cold dom, which effects do you stay to value more, survival buffs/debuffs or offensive buffs /debuffs? 

[ForeverLaxx]

15 hours ago, Leo_G said:

Justified? Are you saying the argument has no merit?

Pretty sure they're a hardline "buff everything, no nerfs ever" person, judging from the posts I see them reacting to.

[Sakura Tenshi]

semi off-topic, but I think a big issue is that a lot of invention sets, as they are right now, just don't offer enough, much less good enough bonuses to build for anything but +defense and +recharge. I recently just tried to build a blaster heavily towards +damage sets, and you know what I managed? +35% damage, which isn't anything to sneeze at necessarily, but still quite dismal, especially since getting sufficient recharge effectively is doubling your damage output, and you can't really put out damage if you're dead. So I sort of view part of the issue is that other sets just don't offer sufficient bonuses in areas other than defense and recharge to really appeal.

 

As a side note, the matter is further complicated by how resistance has a hard cap on it compared to defense, which further incentivizes towards defense focused building. On the otherhand, sets like Ninjutsu (even scrapper and sentinel versions) and super reflexes which are extremely defense focused with almost no resistances to speak of feel incredibly fragile because as much as they can ram their defenses, the moment they are hit, they go down and go down hard. So defenses are basically 'too high' for characters who are using sets not built for defense, but can achieve it anyway, while it hovers nearly 'too low' for defense oriented sets.

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

semi off-topic, but I think a big issue is that a lot of invention sets, as they are right now, just don't offer enough, much less good enough bonuses to build for anything but +defense and +recharge. I recently just tried to build a blaster heavily towards +damage sets, and you know what I managed? +35% damage, which isn't anything to sneeze at necessarily, but still quite dismal, especially since getting sufficient recharge effectively is doubling your damage output, and you can't really put out damage if you're dead. So I sort of view part of the issue is that other sets just don't offer sufficient bonuses in areas other than defense and recharge to really appeal.

 

That was my argument, buried back near the beginning of the thread... the set bonuses for Defense and Recharge are out of whack with regards to other set bonuses like Accuracy, Damage, Regeneration, etc. Some of it is because of high bonuses (Defense) compared to low bonuses (Damage), and some of it is because of the diminishing value of bonuses (enough +Recovery is enough, so building for more is wasting set bonuses that could go to something that is actually needed). Everyone in build-design threads suggests raising Defense and Recharge... unless a character is just cripplingly low in value, nobody suggest making major changes to get Recovery in, +Damage is almost never mentioned, etc. Resistance gets a nod as probably being in 3rd place, but well behind the two leaders. This is unbalanced, and should be addressed... which would open up more builds as competitive against the best other builds.

[ZeeHero]

On 6/10/2020 at 7:29 AM, ForeverLaxx said:

Pretty sure they're a hardline "buff everything, no nerfs ever" person, judging from the posts I see them reacting to.

No but from your post I can tell you are a hardline "Nerf everything nerfs are always the answer" person so I cant take anything you say seriously.

 

This is COH. it sucks from a gameplay/combat perspective, and the engine is old enough its impossible to make a truly fun challenge in the gameplay. Leave. It. Alone.

90% of the people who are playing HC now will probably leave if they do any significant nerfs to survivability in most sets. 

 

We dont play for challenge becuase COH isnt a challenge and never was and never will be a truly fun challenge. sure, COH was harder back in the day, but not in a good way at all given the combat system and mechanics.

 

If you want a challenge go raid in FFXIV or play Dark Souls games. COH is never going to deliver a fun challenge to intelligent players. give up the nerf herding. go whine in another game.