Energy Melee - Does not need

[Vanden]

14 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I don't recall on the endurance, but recharge, yes.

It does indeed include endurance.

[Mystic_Cross]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

If anyone is saying Whirling Hands getting 18% more damage would make it similar to Spin, they are mistaken. It would make it more like Dragon's Tail or Whirling Mace if you want a good comp. But surely, any damage increase would technically move it closer to Spin (given it's top dog of them all).

 

I pulled these numbers from my spreadsheets and added a Dmg Formula calculation so you can see what various 8 ft radius PBAoE attacks should be doing compared with what they actually do. You'll see I provided an adjusted Spin calculation to accomodate the fact that Spin gets a 20% recharge discount (so it should be treated like a 17.5s recharge, not 14s). You'll see Spin is still more than 30% of what the damage formula would dictate while powers like Whirling Axe and Whirling Hands are producing 15% below what the damage formula would dictate. We could argue the Whirling Axe is actually the worst of the bunch as it has a slower cast time than Whirling Hands, but it makes no difference. Both are badly underperforming.

 

 

*Edit: These numbers are pulled from Brutes, but should translate to the other ATs as well

I see. As I said, I was using Mids numbers... but I was looking under Tanker AT. It seems there is something wonky going on with the tanker damage calculations in Mids. Set to "Damage per activation at 50" it says Whirling Hands would deal 94.25 damage and Spin would deal 126.5, meanwhile Whirling Axe is only at 50.19 and Whirling Sword is at 74.28. I should have realized that those numbers didn't look right to begin with.

 

In any case, that was the basis for me saying the 18% increase would put WH closest to Spin, but it was obviously dead wrong. Completely my fault for not validating those numbers in-game before speaking. Thanks for the clarity @Bopper

[Bopper]

42 minutes ago, Mystic_Cross said:

I see. As I said, I was using Mids numbers... but I was looking under Tanker AT. It seems there is something wonky going on with the tanker damage calculations in Mids. Set to "Damage per activation at 50" it says Whirling Hands would deal 94.25 damage and Spin would deal 126.5, meanwhile Whirling Axe is only at 50.19 and Whirling Sword is at 74.28. I should have realized that those numbers didn't look right to begin with.

 

In any case, that was the basis for me saying the 18% increase would put WH closest to Spin, but it was obviously dead wrong. Completely my fault for not validating those numbers in-game before speaking. Thanks for the clarity @Bopper

No worries, you're actually the 2nd person in the last 24 hours to tell me the numbers look off with Energy Melee. Check out Energy Transfer on a tanker and I bet your jaw will drop. I would fix it, but since Energy Melee is getting looked at in Page 6, might as well wait until then. No point in doing the same work twice.

[Golden Azrael]

Every time I'm in a mission with Overdrive...I'm reminded of what Energy Melee 'should be' in my mind.

 

Overdrive hits like a truck.  An NPC that has the mob 'arrested' long before I get my 1st attack out.  (Bang.  Bang BANG!  Dead.  'Arrested.'  With a head dangling off a neck.)

 

I'm getting the feeling Overdrive wasn't game balanced.  But I'd take that for Energy Melee.

 

Fist Mother Trucker.  (Overdrive.)

 

Changes to Energy Melee for tanks in Page 6?  I hope they're creative.

 

Azrael.

 

PS.  I keep hearing about how 'good' things were for the Energy Melee tank in the owden days...but do we have any numbers for then vs now?  Any actual % over the set from then to now?

Edited September 24, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[siolfir]

28 minutes ago, Golden Azrael said:

PS.  I keep hearing about how 'good' things were for the Energy Melee tank in the owden days...but do we have any numbers for then vs now?  Any actual % over the set from then to now?

Most of the attacks people actually use remained the same except for Energy Transfer, which had a 1 second animation where all of the damage hit in 0.5 seconds. The magnitude of the stun attached to Total Focus went from mag 4 to mag 3, so it wasn't a one-shot stun on Bosses anymore. Here's a link for the patch notes.

 

For performance numbers on that, the DPA (damage per second of activation) of Energy Transfer went from scale 3.838 damage per second - at a time where second place was Blaze at 2.294 overall (with about a quarter of that damage as DoT ticks) and Seismic Smash at 2.075 - to it's current scale 1.570 per second.

 

Currently, the top single-target DPA available outside of Stalkers or critical damage is Freezing Touch, which does just over half of the damage and uses the old ET animation: it's at 2.454 but is a pure DoT. Within melee sets, Rend Armor is 2.212 with Momentum - a touch below Blaze, although on Scrappers a critical will cause that to double. Including Stalkers, KM's Assassin's Strike is 2.987 scale per second without a critical.

[Troo]

Off the top of my head:

pre 2008 energy melee nerf, I believe there was a competitive event where 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place all went to energy melee characters.. it was already understood that it was an over performer.

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, Troo said:

Off the top of my head:

pre 2008 energy melee nerf, I believe there was a competitive event where 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place all went to energy melee characters.. it was already understood that it was an over performer.

When the competitive event is PvP, not so sure that means it was an over performer.

 

Especially considering PvE does not equal PvP.

[Troo]

troo

 

[Golden Azrael]

17 hours ago, siolfir said:

Most of the attacks people actually use remained the same except for Energy Transfer, which had a 1 second animation where all of the damage hit in 0.5 seconds. The magnitude of the stun attached to Total Focus went from mag 4 to mag 3, so it wasn't a one-shot stun on Bosses anymore. Here's a link for the patch notes.

 

For performance numbers on that, the DPA (damage per second of activation) of Energy Transfer went from scale 3.838 damage per second - at a time where second place was Blaze at 2.294 overall (with about a quarter of that damage as DoT ticks) and Seismic Smash at 2.075 - to it's current scale 1.570 per second.

 

Currently, the top single-target DPA available outside of Stalkers or critical damage is Freezing Touch, which does just over half of the damage and uses the old ET animation: it's at 2.454 but is a pure DoT. Within melee sets, Rend Armor is 2.212 with Momentum - a touch below Blaze, although on Scrappers a critical will cause that to double. Including Stalkers, KM's Assassin's Strike is 2.987 scale per second without a critical.

An interesting post.  Thank you for the informative response.  It's good to see some hard numbers so we can 'see' what we're discussing here.

 

The former 3.838 to the current 1.570 is quite the fall of grace.  That's less than half...and takes almost three times longer and still uses your HPs after the nerf (I did muse that you could double Energy Melee's damage output to get it 'reasonable.'  Ironic.  If HC did that it still wouldn't match the 'pre-nerf.'  It would explain why Overdrive NPC hits like a Truck.  Her numbers must be pre-nerf.)

 

I wonder.  Do EM fans want all that damage for ET back?  Or the amount spread over the entire Energy Melee set?

 

Freezing Touch's DoT at 2.454 is good news for my ice tanker.

 

Azrael.

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Mystic_Cross]

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

I wonder.  Do EM fans want all that damage for ET back?  Or the amount spread over the entire Energy Melee set?

For this threads purpose, yes the goal was to have ET returned to its original design.

For EM fans (and other interested parties) I’d say the above statement was not the only desire for the set.
 

There have been many suggestions in various threads, but I don’t recall any of them being to disperse ETs damage across the set. 

[tidge]

4 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

I wonder.  Do EM fans want all that damage for ET back?  Or the amount spread over the entire Energy Melee set?

PVP isn't a concern for me (and never was). I also don't need every melee set to be optimized to quickly clear x8 missions by itself.

 

I don't know that I necessarily need all the damage back but I'm completely ok with ET being the gem of the set instead of simply spreading more damage out over the set (or adding another AoE).

[Golden Azrael]

5 hours ago, Mystic_Cross said:

For this threads purpose, yes the goal was to have ET returned to its original design.

For EM fans (and other interested parties) I’d say the above statement was not the only desire for the set.
 

There have been many suggestions in various threads, but I don’t recall any of them being to disperse ETs damage across the set. 

If you doubled the current ET it would be 3000 say.

 

Leaving 800 points from the old ET to spend on 'doubling' up the numbers for the rest of the set?  (whilst I can understand having ET back to its former glory...perhaps having more 'one' highlight in a set would be more progressive meaning you can get a few good hits in on a 'rolling' 8 man team?)

 

Making eg. Bone smasher a real 'BONE smasher!' and making Energy Punch less limp.  And Barrage a real barrage.  Or adding some dam' to the stun... and Total Focus totally hurt?  And Whirling hands whealy hurt.

 

Is that allowed?

 

I had this idea that Tanks should hit really hard.  But like the game formula says.  They're slower and more piston like.  And that justifies them hitting like trucks.  Single target specialists.  They're strong and controlled.  Focused strength.  (Brutes more wild and lashing out so their AoE may be better...but their single target focus less so.)  And that means solo...I have the satisfaction of wiping out mobs with one or two punches.  *points to mob.  'And you..., 'Arrrh...'  (taunts.)'.  

 

Have we seen the way Overdrive goes into a mob and decks...him...and him...and that other one in what seems like 3 or 4 punches.  We're talking flat out pancake.  I have Overdrive envy..?

 

I wouldn't mind the rest of the team melting the mobs if I could get one super truck punch in...

 

Slow.  But hard.  Well.  *coughs.*  You know what I mean. 😉

 

Azrael.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Troo]

No need to over complicate it. Bone Smash works. Old ET works. Old TF stuns. The other quick attacks help stack and damage.

 

This is why folks want the former Energy Melee back.. and then possibly make some adjustments. Making Energy Transfer less effective to boost other things.. no thanks.

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Troo

[BrandX]

Energy Melee needs Whirling Hands put into the Stalker version too 🙂

[Mystic_Cross]

On 9/25/2020 at 10:00 AM, Golden Azrael said:

 

I had this idea that Tanks should hit really hard.  But like the game formula says.  They're slower and more piston like.  And that justifies them hitting like trucks.  Single target specialists.  They're strong and controlled.  Focused strength.  (Brutes more wild and lashing out so their AoE may be better...but their single target focus less so.)  And that means solo...I have the satisfaction of wiping out mobs with one or two punches.  *points to mob.  'And you..., 'Arrrh...'  (taunts.)'.  

 

Slow.  But hard.  Well.  *coughs.*  You know what I mean. 😉

 

Azrael.

The way I see it, Tanks and Brutes are currently opposite in-game from what you describe here... in an AoE vs ST comparison at least. The reason they are slow is simply because they do less damage. Their description in-game is misleading because nearly every other AT hits harder in practice.

 

Tanks plainly get better AoE now in any set that has 10’ or less PBAoE radius or sub-90 degree (I think?) cones due to their inherent.
 

Brutes have far better damage due to their inherent which in turn gives them better ST output while still maintaining decent AoE range, and still better damage in that regard as well. So long as the targets are closer.

 

Brutes are akin to the Bull charging after the red and directing all their rage at it. Tanks are more like the Matador, controlling the arena and directing their opponent’s’ fury.

This isn’t Tank vs Brute discussion though, so pardon my off topic rant. 
 

What I’d personally like to see from EM In a nutshell:

 

- reduced activation/animation times for Barrage, Whirling Hands, Energy Transfer and Total Focus. I think these four powers make the entire set unnecessarily slow-feeling. It’s possible that simply reverting ET would be enough, but I wouldn’t stake the future on it so...
 

- IF ET wasn’t fully reverted for whatever reason, then either removing the self damage, adding an energy return or slightly increasing it’s damage further  (yes I know it already gets bonus damage etc) or some combination there of might be acceptable recompense.
 

- Increase Whirling Hands damage reasonably and/or give it 50% stun chance (mag 2) with a 2nd %chance (20-30%?) for additional +1 mag.

 

- Replace Build Up with Power Build Up, 80% damage, 20% tohit, 43% special enhancement (est.) with 15s duration and 120s recharge. (the %special and recharge are reduced approx. 50% from the APP version). Duration of special buff should be made finite regardless of power type (i.e. click, toggle, etc.)

 

- Make Stun a 10’-15’ PBAoE stun (mag 3) with minor damage (so it could still be proc’d if desired) or a 10’ PBAoE damaging power with a stun component (50% mag 2, 20% chance for +1 mag or similar). Making it a proper AoE would give that benefit to Stalkers as well.
 

That’s my Christmas wish list anyway. Fairly certain is doesn’t matter either way because as I understand it, EM is already on closed beta, and has been since possibly even before the “weekly discussion” on EM took place.

At the very least, changes were likely already in progress prior to the discussion. I can’t imagine it would’ve been available for CB so soon otherwise. I suppose that doesn’t mean changes can’t be made, however I doubt it will change drastically from whatever has been decided already.

 

Guess time will tell.

[Golden Azrael]

Some good suggestions there like speeding up the 'four' key 'slow' powers.

 

Power Build Up is a good suggestion.   Though I'd like to see it last longer than 15 sec.

 

I like the idea of an AoE stun and upping the AoE mag chance.

 

ET being faster, returning end or providing and some bonus burst damage to tier 1, 2 and 3 would be nice.

 

EM already in beta?  So it's something they've been working on for a while given the En' Melee 'Energy Focus' for the Dominator.  A derived version for EM Tank might not be out of the question.  I could get behind that.

 

I'm intrigued to see what they come up with.

 

Azrael.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Haijinx]

On 9/27/2020 at 7:15 AM, Mystic_Cross said:

 

- Replace Build Up with Power Build Up, 80% damage, 20% tohit, 43% special enhancement (est.) with 15s duration and 120s recharge. (the %special and recharge are reduced approx. 50% from the APP version). Duration of special buff should be made finite regardless of power type (i.e. click, toggle, etc.)

 

This might be considered OP for Melee ATs since it would supercharge their Defense powers.  

 

I personally don't think it would matter that much.  But remember Capt Ph won't give Tankers Energy Aura as it is now explicitly for the reason their Defense would be too high. 

[WindKnight]

I wouldn't be opposed to getting the old Energy Transfer animation back on Brutes. I still took it and Total Focus and just sucked it up. While the "Fab 3" get better results, I need more variety. Now, if they made EM more akin to boxing style moves I'd be okay with that too! Or hell, I'll even take the KB Blow animation for Total Focus! If you're gonna' make me hang out and watch, at least give me something SPECTACULAR to watch!

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, WindKnight said:

I wouldn't be opposed to getting the old Energy Transfer animation back on Brutes. I still took it and Total Focus and just sucked it up. While the "Fab 3" get better results, I need more variety. Now, if they made EM more akin to boxing style moves I'd be okay with that too! Or hell, I'll even take the KB Blow animation for Total Focus! If you're gonna' make me hang out and watch, at least give me something SPECTACULAR to watch!

Allowing the animation for the T1 for Street Justice as an alternate for the goofy Barrage animation would be cool IMO. 

 

Some of the STJ uppercuts might make good alternates for the other powers too.  

[Mystic_Cross]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

This might be considered OP for Melee ATs since it would supercharge their Defense powers.  

 

I personally don't think it would matter that much.  But remember Capt Ph won't give Tankers Energy Aura as it is now explicitly for the reason their Defense would be too high. 

I think it would possibly be equal to something like a 15s duration Medium defense inspiration at most for defense powers. I think the only "click" defense powers Melee ATs have are their T9s, and a few have Anti-Mez clickies... but if it were made to be a static 15s duration regardless, as suggested, I doubt it would have that large of an impact on defense. Especially with only half of the original +special% buff. It's something like +98% originally.

 

I can't really see why Energy Aura would be more OP on Tanks than Super Reflexes is. I wasn't aware of that decision, but it seems like an odd one to me *shrug*

[BrandX]

44 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Allowing the animation for the T1 for Street Justice as an alternate for the goofy Barrage animation would be cool IMO. 

 

Some of the STJ uppercuts might make good alternates for the other powers too.  

 

Goofy?  It's a great 1 - 2 Punch! 🙂  Wish it was better damage 🙂

[Haijinx]

7 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Goofy?  It's a great 1 - 2 Punch! 🙂  Wish it was better damage 🙂

Initial Strikes is a so much cooler 1-2 punch though.  

 

 

[BrandX]

22 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Initial Strikes is a so much cooler 1-2 punch though.  

 

 

 

Eh, I prefer Barrage 🙂

[siolfir]

 

1 hour ago, Mystic_Cross said:

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

This might be considered OP for Melee ATs since it would supercharge their Defense powers.  

 

I personally don't think it would matter that much.  But remember Capt Ph won't give Tankers Energy Aura as it is now explicitly for the reason their Defense would be too high. 

I think it would possibly be equal to something like a 15s duration Medium defense inspiration at most for defense powers. I think the only "click" defense powers Melee ATs have are their T9s, and a few have Anti-Mez clickies... but if it were made to be a static 15s duration regardless, as suggested, I doubt it would have that large of an impact on defense. Especially with only half of the original +special% buff. It's something like +98% originally.

 

I can't really see why Energy Aura would be more OP on Tanks than Super Reflexes is. I wasn't aware of that decision, but it seems like an odd one to me *shrug*

PBU would affect click defense buffs that don't also offer resistance (more specifically, those that are flagged to ignore outside buffs which is every non-bugged power that provides resistance due to how +damage effects +resistance if allowed), heals that don't provide resistance, absorb powers that end up hitting the absorb cap with little to no slotting, and +regen powers that are, again, not flagged. The duration on a toggle would be depend on the frequency that the toggle activates, but would only be around 15 seconds regardless since the toggle would have to tick after PBU activates, then each tick until it wears off would have the boosted value. 

 

As for Energy Aura being more OP than Super Reflexes, I don't necessarily agree with the assertion the one is OP on Tanker numbers while the other isn't, but SR's only advantages comparing the two sets is in defense debuff resistance and in not having a psi hole (barring a few Mind Control powers that don't have a positional tag). On the other side, Energy Aura gets a self heal (Energize), endurance refill (Energy Drain), the passive resistances are consistent instead of scaling, and while it's rarely taken and/or used, the tier 9 has +maxhp for more layers of mitigation than SR offers.

Edited September 28, 2020 by siolfir
removed "only" at the beginning of the list of things PBU would affect

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Mystic_Cross said:

I think it would possibly be equal to something like a 15s duration Medium defense inspiration at most for defense powers. I think the only "click" defense powers Melee ATs have are their T9s, and a few have Anti-Mez clickies... but if it were made to be a static 15s duration regardless, as suggested, I doubt it would have that large of an impact on defense. Especially with only half of the original +special% buff. It's something like +98% originally.

 

I can't really see why Energy Aura would be more OP on Tanks than Super Reflexes is. I wasn't aware of that decision, but it seems like an odd one to me *shrug*

I actually agree.  

 

I just thought I'd mention it since these big defense numbers have come up before. 

 

Thematically it fits of course, since Energy Manipulation has it and that's the Blaster version of Energy Melee.