Energy Melee - Does not need

[Mystic_Cross]

On 9/28/2020 at 11:14 AM, siolfir said:

 

PBU would affect click defense buffs that don't also offer resistance (more specifically, those that are flagged to ignore outside buffs which is every non-bugged power that provides resistance due to how +damage effects +resistance if allowed), heals that don't provide resistance, absorb powers that end up hitting the absorb cap with little to no slotting, and +regen powers that are, again, not flagged. The duration on a toggle would be depend on the frequency that the toggle activates, but would only be around 15 seconds regardless since the toggle would have to tick after PBU activates, then each tick until it wears off would have the boosted value. 

Hmm, I suppose that is a lot more to consider than just +defense... at the same time I'm not sure I feel it would be any more unreasonable of a buff, especially on a largely Single Target oriented set that could typically have more enemies surrounding it for longer periods than a more AoE oriented set. If anything I think it would serve to provide a unique niche for EM and "level the playing field" against other sets in regards to survivability vs kill speed.

 

Martial Arts can get +10% to all defense positions and also has Disorient. Dark Melee has a self heal, reliable debuff potential and a great +Dam boost. Super Strength has its huge AoE and long duration +dam/+tohit with Rage. So I don't think it would be out of line with tools that other melee sets have access to. 

 

In your honest opinion, Do you think a 15s duration, 43% +special buff would push it into being too OP? 

 

On 9/28/2020 at 11:14 AM, siolfir said:

As for Energy Aura being more OP than Super Reflexes, I don't necessarily agree with the assertion the one is OP on Tanker numbers while the other isn't, but SR's only advantages comparing the two sets is in defense debuff resistance and in not having a psi hole (barring a few Mind Control powers that don't have a positional tag). On the other side, Energy Aura gets a self heal (Energize), endurance refill (Energy Drain), the passive resistances are consistent instead of scaling, and while it's rarely taken and/or used, the tier 9 has +maxhp for more layers of mitigation than SR offers.

I think the difference in debuff resistance somewhat balances out at least some of the extra tools EA gets over SR. It more or less requires the static resistances and self heal because otherwise it likely wouldn't survive when defense fails. It needs more layers because it can't perfectly rely on defense by design. Energy drain I see as more of a thematic staple, although it does have a small +def component per target I think. Overall I don't think it would have as easy of a time getting to softcap as SR does either.

 

On 9/28/2020 at 11:18 AM, Haijinx said:

Thematically it fits of course, since Energy Manipulation has it and that's the Blaster version of Energy Melee. 

Blaster Energy Manipulation gets Power Boost, which is a (close to) 80% +special buff only (no +dam/+tohit) but is generally where I got the idea. That and it's thematically relevant.  Power Build Up is in the Defender APP Power Mastery and gives the +dam/+tohit with a 98% +special buff, which was pointed out to me by @siolfir and I felt it would be a better choice since it maintains the normal Build Up function that it would be replacing.

 

*Edited because I realized I've been tagging the wrong person in these posts... more than once! oh dear me...

Edited September 30, 2020 by Mystic_Cross

[ABlueThingy]

As long as the feel of EM holds true. Being raining down endless blows and pounding one guy so hard he can't even react. Putting your actual lifeblood into the attacks to fuel the omega-level ass beating you're unleashing? I'll be happy.  I don't need it to be a technical or finicky set.  Just raw power.

 

If any changes enhance that feeling I think they'd be for the better.  (just make sure we change the animation first.)

[siolfir]

6 hours ago, Mystic_Cross said:

In your honest opinion, Do you think a 15s duration, 43% +special buff would push it into being too OP? 

 

I think the difference in debuff resistance somewhat balances out at least some of the extra tools EA gets over SR. It more or less requires the static resistances and self heal because otherwise it likely wouldn't survive when defense fails. It needs more layers because it can't perfectly rely on defense by design. Energy drain I see as more of a thematic staple, although it does have a small +def component per target I think. Overall I don't think it would have as easy of a time getting to softcap as SR does either.

 

Blaster Energy Manipulation gets Power Boost, which is a (close to) 80% +special buff only (no +dam/+tohit) but is generally where I got the idea. That and it's thematically relevant.  Power Build Up is in the Defender APP Power Mastery and gives the +dam/+tohit with a 98% +special buff, which was pointed out to me by @Sovera and I felt it would be a better choice since it maintains the normal Build Up function that it would be replacing.

No. See the part in red below.

 

Energy Aura isn't completely lacking in defense debuff resistance - it has as much as any set other than Super Reflexes, such as Ice, Ninjitsu, or Shield if they don't stack their mez protection, and has more than a hybrid set like Invulnerability, which has more than Willpower. And I think that the "easy time" hitting the softcap is due to Energy Drain providing +defense per target hit. I'll admit, I haven't done a build for Energy Aura in months, and have never run it with Tanker numbers, but it was not difficult to softcap to all but Psi for a Stalker even without Energy Drain.

 

I pointed out Power Build Up in a reply to your post in the Weekly Discussion thread when you suggested Power Boost:

For Blasters, Energy Manipulation also contains Build Up. If I had to pick one of the two, I'd rather have Build Up than just Power Boost - but Power Build Up would give it a unique (to melee) boost without sacrificing the +to-hit and +damage that Build Up provides, allowing you to use it either offensively, defensively, or for both.

Edited September 29, 2020 by siolfir

[Mystic_Cross]

4 hours ago, siolfir said:

No. See the part in red below.

Yes, I recall that post and conversation. I only asked in order to confirm your stance definitively, because the other details you mentioned above weren't really discussed in that thread. 🙂

 

Now, I don't want to derail the thread excessively, but I wanted to address this:

4 hours ago, siolfir said:

Energy Aura isn't completely lacking in defense debuff resistance - it has as much as any set other than Super Reflexes, such as Ice, Ninjitsu, or Shield if they don't stack their mez protection, and has more than a hybrid set like Invulnerability, which has more than Willpower. And I think that the "easy time" hitting the softcap is due to Energy Drain providing +defense per target hit. I'll admit, I haven't done a build for Energy Aura in months, and have never run it with Tanker numbers, but it was not difficult to softcap to all but Psi for a Stalker even without Energy Drain.

I've only recently used EA on a Stalker myself (currently level 28), and once a very long time ago (on live) with a Brute that never got out of his teens. I've never used Ice Armor at all (simply because I don't like the FX). So, far from an expert with either.

 

From what I can tell though, Ice Armor has more or less all of the same utility that Energy Aura does, with a more accessible +MaxHP click, Same Energy Drain with +def per target for "easy" softcap, and a T9 with healing (that is probably taken far more often than EAs T9), it also has a damage aura and vaunted DeBuffs. EA in turn gets some stealth and also has the +recharge-self/-recharge-foe aura that is a per target buff/debuff. I think they're both fairly balanced against eachother for an apples to apples comparison.

 

The only real difference (defensively) is that Ice gets no F/C/T defense (but has capped Cold resists and decent 25% Fire resists instead, both unslotted) while EA, if on a Tank, would have probably about 15-20% max to its resists for S,L,N,T and maybe slightly better for Energy resist, But no F/C resist. At least these are the main differences I see from a very quick Passover in Mids.  (Disclaimer: Tank EA resist numbers were pulled out of a hat, based loosely on differences between other tank/brute armors available to both). Obviously it's not my decision to make, but given the similarities... and the fact that SR, Ice and Shield are all available on Tanks already... I don't see any outlier reasons why EA couldn't (or shouldn't) be ported over.

 

The only possible explanation I can come up with, is that EA can get capped defense debuff resistance on top of everything, but only while the T9 is active. I suppose the +recharge per target aura could be another consideration, but I don't think that's something that would improve by being on a Tank over a Brute.

[siolfir]

9 hours ago, Mystic_Cross said:

The only real difference (defensively) is that Ice gets no F/C/T defense (but has capped Cold resists and decent 25% Fire resists instead, both unslotted) while EA, if on a Tank, would have probably about 15-20% max to its resists for S,L,N,T and maybe slightly better for Energy resist, But no F/C resist. At least these are the main differences I see from a very quick Passover in Mids.  (Disclaimer: Tank EA resist numbers were pulled out of a hat, based loosely on differences between other tank/brute armors available to both). Obviously it's not my decision to make, but given the similarities... and the fact that SR, Ice and Shield are all available on Tanks already... I don't see any outlier reasons why EA couldn't (or shouldn't) be ported over.

I'm willing to jump on the tangent for a post or two, so I decided to actually convert and check the numbers.

 

Now, I'm using the archived City of Data page since I'm not in a position to check in-game numbers to see if things have changed, but looking at the numbers again, ignoring Entropic (it's mez and recharge) and Energize (same % as heals) to basically just get its consistent defense numbers for Energy Aura:

Energy Aura, converted to Tanker numbers:
Kinetic Shield: 17% def (S/L), 2.5% def (E)

Dampening Field: 12.5% res (S/L), 10% res (E)

Power Shield: 20% def (E/F/C), 14% def (N)

Energy Protection: 12.5% res (E/N/T)

Energy Cloak: 5% def (all)

Energy Drain: 1.5% def (S/L/E/N/F/C) for first target, +0.5% for additional targets to max of 6% at 10 targets

 

Compare that to Ice Armor - again, just going with the consistent defense numbers: 

Frozen Armor: 17% def (S/L), 30% res (C), 12.5% res (F)

Hoarfrost: 20% res (T); +maxHP is effectively res (all)

Chilling Embrace: -14% dam (purple patch applies, though)

Wet Ice: 1% def (S/L/E/N/F/C), 30% res (C)

Permafrost: 30% res (C), 12.5% res (F)

Glacial Armor: 17% def (E/N), 30% res (C), +perception

Energy Absorption: 1.6% def (S/L/E/N/F/C) for first target, +0.6% for additional targets to max of 7% at 10 targets.

 

I'll call Energy Drain and Energy Absorption a wash, even though that actually helps Ice slightly more, because it means I don't have to create a range.

So totaling the numbers up:

Damage Type	Energy Aura	Ice Armor
Smashing/Lethal	22% def, 12.5% res	18% def
Energy	27.5% def, 12.5% res	18% def
Fire	25% def	25% res
Cold	25% def	90%+ res
Negative	19% def, 12.5% res	18% def
Toxic	12.5% res	20% res

 

For comparison's sake, Tanker Super Reflexes is 26% base defense to the three positions; multiply by 1.6 for ED-capped slotting to get 41.6% defense after slotting with no set bonuses: 28.125% base defense gives you 45% defense with 60% slotting in all relevant powers. So the numbers above don't seem too gaudy for EA, really - it does slightly better than SR at Energy defense only, which is its specialty, and sure it has higher defense numbers than Ice across the board, but Ice has +maxhp, a -damage aura, and a damage aura.

 

But then you add Energy Drain, which has a recharge (60s) and duration (45s) that allows the numbers to be permanent:

• A saturated Energy Absorption puts Ice Armor at 25% defense for S/L/E/N. It's still under SR for everything, and only gets to 40% with basic ED-capped slotting on the best numbers. There are still holes outside of Psi and Toxic.
• A saturated Energy Drain, on the other hand, puts Energy Aura at 25% defense for N, 28% for S/L, 31% for F/C, and 33.5% for E: just SOs puts it over the softcap for 3 types (E/F/C) and just under (44.8%) for 2 more (S/L) using Tanker base numbers.

 

So yeah, I'd say it's probably because of Energy Drain.

Edited September 29, 2020 by siolfir
reformatting for energy drain points

[Mystic_Cross]

8 hours ago, siolfir said:

I'm willing to jump on the tangent for a post or two, so I decided to actually convert and check the numbers.

 

Now, I'm using the archived City of Data page since I'm not in a position to check in-game numbers to see if things have changed, but looking at the numbers again, ignoring Entropic (it's mez and recharge) and Energize (same % as heals) to basically just get its consistent defense numbers for Energy Aura:

 

What a wonderful post! I have to say, I wasn't expecting you to do all of that in relation to a hypothetical tangent... but it's marvelous, so Thank You! Hopefully the City of Data... uhhh... data, is correct. I don't know that I'd be able (willing?) to convert the in-game numbers to Tank values. Even if I wanted to, my tendencies are to avoid doing math whenever possible. In light of that, I'm just gonna "borrow" a few pieces of your post if you don't mind... 

 

Quote

For comparison's sake, Tanker Super Reflexes is 26% base defense to the three positions; multiply by 1.6 for ED-capped slotting to get 41.6% defense after slotting with no set bonuses: 28.125% base defense gives you 45% defense with 60% slotting in all relevant powers. So the numbers above don't seem too gaudy for EA, really - it does slightly better than SR at Energy defense only, which is its specialty, and sure it has higher defense numbers than Ice across the board, but Ice has +maxhp, a -damage aura, and a damage aura.

 

But then you add Energy Drain, which has a recharge (60s) and duration (45s) that allows the numbers to be permanent:

• A saturated Energy Absorption puts Ice Armor at 25% defense for S/L/E/N. It's still under SR for everything, and only gets to 40% with basic ED-capped slotting on the best numbers. There are still holes outside of Psi and Toxic.
• A saturated Energy Drain, on the other hand, puts Energy Aura at 25% defense for N, 28% for S/L, 31% for F/C, and 33.5% for E: just SOs puts it over the softcap for 3 types (E/F/C) and just under (44.8%) for 2 more (S/L) using Tanker base numbers.

 

So yeah, I'd say it's probably because of Energy Drain.

 

It does appear that Energy Drain would make things a bit too robust, given everything else. So I can see the hang-up now. Still, I can't help but wonder if there would be an "easy" fix to make it possible. What if we removed Energy Cloak and replaced it with the same power that (more or less) replaced it on Stalkers... Disrupt? It's a PBAoE foe Disorient toggle with an 8' radius that pulses a Mag 2 stun every 4s. I mean, if you think about it... Tanks don't really need a stealth toggle anyway, do they? (Dark Armor doesn't count 😛). Based on the numbers you provided, it would be a 5% (unslotted) loss in defense.

 

So, I stole... *ahem*... "borrowed" your tables for a comparison and adjusted the base EA numbers by -5% to account for the loss of Energy Cloak:

 

Damage Type	Energy Aura	Ice Armor
Smashing/Lethal	17% def, 12.5% res	18% def
Energy	22.5% def, 12.5% res	18% def
Fire	20% def	25% res
Cold	20% def	90%+ res
Negative	14% def, 12.5% res	18% def
Toxic	12.5% res	20% res

 

Those numbers still look reasonable to me. EA remains best with E, still good with F/C, slightly worse for S/L (but has resists) and remains worst for N, but still not horrible. 

 

I took the same table again, and adjusted the above to add in saturated (unslotted) Energy Drain and Energy Absorbtion values into the mix, for a side-by-side view:

 

Damage Type	Energy Aura - w\ Energy Drain (saturated)	Ice Armor - w\ Energy Absorbtion (saturated)
Smashing/Lethal	23% def, 12.5% res	25% def
Energy	28.5% def, 12.5% res	25% def
Fire	26% def	25% res
Cold	26% def	90%+ res
Negative	20% def, 12.5% res	25% def
Toxic	12.5% res	20% res

 

With these base values and standard triple-defense SO slotting EA would be at 35.88% S/L, 44.46% Energy, 40.56% F/C and 31.2% Neg. A 3-def SO slotted Weave and the two Unique +3%def IOs would get all S/L/F/C/N values at or above softcap, meanwhile Energy defense would be approaching Incarnate softcap at that point. Keep in mind that this is all with fully-saturated Energy Drain, which needs targets. In contrast, Ice would end up at 39% S/L/E/N with triple-SO defense slotting. So with Ice, a slotted Weave OR the two Unique +3%def IOs would put you over softcap to S/L/E/N.

 

Overall, it looks to me like EA would be pretty well balanced (vs Ice) at Tanker values, by just trading Energy Cloak for Disrupt. and just to stay the slightest amount on topic, The stun component of Disrupt would add synergy for pairing with Energy Melee. You see? We're still talking (in a very roundabout way) about EM here!

 

Seriously though, I don't want to derail the thread much further but I would like to hear your opinion on whether this all seems accurate to you as well, @siolfir.

 

*Edited because I tagged the wrong person, lol 🙂

Edited September 30, 2020 by Mystic_Cross

[Sovera]

3 minutes ago, Mystic_Cross said:

Seriously though, I don't want to derail the thread much further but I would like to hear your opinion on whether this all seems accurate to you as well, @Sovera.

I think you have the wrong person, Mystic. I don't usually meddle with suggestion threads or set balancing, or even energy melee 🙂

[Mystic_Cross]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

I think you have the wrong person, Mystic. I don't usually meddle with suggestion threads or set balancing, or even energy melee 🙂

Ahahaha... you're right, I do... so sorry about that! I had your name stuck in my head from another thread 🙂

 

Edit* and apparently I did it more than once! I should really stop posting when limited on sleep!

Edited September 30, 2020 by Mystic_Cross

[Troo]

What the..

 

lol

[Mystic_Cross]

4 hours ago, Troo said:

What the..

 

lol

I know... takes the words right outta your mouth, doesn’t it? 🤣

[siolfir]

16 hours ago, Mystic_Cross said:

Overall, it looks to me like EA would be pretty well balanced (vs Ice) at Tanker values, by just trading Energy Cloak for Disrupt. and just to stay the slightest amount on topic, The stun component of Disrupt would add synergy for pairing with Energy Melee. You see? We're still talking (in a very roundabout way) about EM here!

 

Seriously though, I don't want to derail the thread much further but I would like to hear your opinion on whether this all seems accurate to you as well, @siolfir.

😂Yes, we're totally talking about EM still. Really, trust us!

 

The numbers seem fine, and using Disrupt in place of Energy Cloak seems like a reasonable method to port it to Tankers - it wouldn't be the first time a Tanker version of a set is different than the others (see: Ice Armor, Fire Melee). But that's more up to @Captain Powerhouse to decide.

[Golden Azrael]

Dark Armour has a '-HPs' to stun/disorient toggle?  That would be interesting vs a single target stun.  With a nice DoT.  A nice way to get AoE into the build...and would amp the disorient.

 

Would tie into the ET -HP for big hit.

 

Azrael.

[Troo]

At this point I think we are in hold our breathe mode..

 

PAGE 6! page 6! 6..6.. 6.. .....

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

At this point I think we are in hold our breathe mode..

 

PAGE 6! page 6! 6..6.. 6.. .....

 

I just want more info on Regen and EM!  Is that to much to ask?! 😞

[Troo]

59 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

I just want more info on Regen and EM!  Is that to much to ask?! 😞

To dream the impossible dream

Spoiler

To dream the impossible dream,
To fight the unbeatable foe,
To bear with unbearable sorrow,
To run where the brave dare not go.

 

To right the unrightable wrong,
To love pure and chaste from afar,
To try when your arms are too weary,
To reach the unreachable star.

 

This is my quest,
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless,
No matter how far.

 

To fight for the right
Without question or pause,
To be willing to march
Into hell for a heavenly cause.

 

And I know if I'll only be true
To this glorious quest
That my heart will be peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest.

 

And the world will be better for this,
That one man scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage.
To fight the unbeatable foe.
To reach the unreachable star.

 

 

and

You gotta fight for your right to party

Spoiler

 

Kick it!

 

You wake up late for school, man, you don't wanna go
You ask you mom, "Please?", but she still says, "No"
You missed two classes and no homework
But your teacher preaches class like you're some kind of jerk

 

You gotta fight for your right to party

 

You pop caught you smoking, and he said, "No way!"
That hypocrite smokes two packs a day
Man, living at home is such a drag
Now your mom threw away your best porno mag
(Busted)

 

You gotta fight for your right to party

You gotta fight

 

Don't step out of this house if that's the clothes you're gonna wear
I'll kick you out of my home if you don't cut that hair
Your mom busted in and said, "What's that noise?"
Aw, mom you're just jealous, it's the Beastie Boys

 

You gotta fight for your right to party
You gotta fight for your right to party
party
party

 

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Troo

[Troo]

and as feared..

 

Powerset Revamp: Energy Melee (Focused Feedback Thread)

Energy Melee has received a series of changes aimed at improving the performance of the set. Total Focus now acts as an opener for three different Energy Focus combos, including a Total Focus > Energy Transfer combo which provides fast, potent single target damage. Stun has been reworked into Power Crash, a cone attack, in order to provide a small amount of additional AoE capability to the set.

 

I will go to Beta and test this..

 

First thoughts:

1. Energy Melee players are now forced to take Total Focus and use it. (or miss out)
2. If it is the Energy Assault mechanic it is very limiting and may not match preferred attack patterns
3. Removing a stun for a low chance cone stun is not inline with a single target melee set. (it's possible a small aoe would have been better)
4. Disappointment

 

There is a link Focused Feedback Thread for 'offical' feedback.

 

[BrandX]

I've never seen an EM player not take Total Focus and now it's sped up.  I don't see the bad part there, truthfully.

 

I did make the suggestion in the feedback thread of making Stun turn into a targeted aoe (around the target, not the caster, like spinning strike) when used with Energy Focus.  So, without Energy Focus, same as it's always been.  With Energy Focus, turns into Targeted AOE and gets more damage, while still stunning the primary target the same as before, but now with more damage (when Energy Focus is in use).

Edited October 24, 2020 by BrandX

[Troo]

I am an EM player and while I always took Total Focus I never used it on anything other than a hard target other than by accident. This is not unusual for T9s.

 

It's great that the animation time was reduced, but that was well over due.

 

Energy Transfer's animation time also needed to be addressed. That the current solution is to speed it up part time is just sad. That it requires a still slow attack to activate the quick version is just disappointing.

[Greycat]

I know in thUS, the thing right now is "Go Vote!"

 

Right here? "Go test!" And unlike voting, do it often! 🙂

[Super Atom]

9 hours ago, Greycat said:

I know in thUS, the thing right now is "Go Vote!"

 

Right here? "Go test!" And unlike voting, do it often! 🙂

Tested, loved, and grateful to the devs. 😄 

[Troo]

26 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Tested, loved, and grateful to the devs. 😄 

ya but you liked the combo mechanic in Energy Assault.. not everyone does.

[Troo]

7 minutes ago, Nuke Leah said:

I used to love energy melee and expected the changes to keep the overall tone of the set while making it more reasonably in line with other powersets

You are definitely not alone feeling this way.

[Troo]

The beta set if anyone hasn't tried it is... different.

 

It does NOT have a full time 1 second animation for Energy Transfer.

It does have a combo mechanic that triggers off Total Focus and provides a boost to one of three options. One of the options is a 'fast' Energy Transfer.

 

The bar was set pretty low, any improvement feels like a big improvement.

 

I continue to believe that the same thing or better could have been accomplished without the combo mechanic.

 

Please head to beta and give a whirl and share your thoughts. It's okay to like the fast ET. My only beefs with it is it requires TF and it is part-time.

 

[Taboo]

What the hell happened?!

[Troo]

This is how it goes. Still trying to show folks how it we could do better, we'll see.