Buffing Underpowered Support Sets

[Replacement]

16 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Defibrillator - This, This is the one power that needs a huge change.  That activation is so short range I have been stopped by my own team trying to rez someone by a pixel.  7 melee target AoE rez, same radius as Howling Twilight.  If you are going to go with a melee code, at least make it act like Spine Burst or other PBAoE attack so the rez just activates as that 7 melee to target kills the 25 radius when it doesn't activate

When used as a rez, I would strongly suggest targeting an ally instead. It should still sap-and-nap any enemies in range but guarantee the rez.

 

EA as a whole: In practice, it really is just too clicky. Like you said, it starts to feel like an attack chain, but for buffs.

 

In addition to longer and normalized buff durations, there's another minor issue I'd like to see addressed: Empowered Circuit's decaying power strength. Even if I hit my whole party with a single cast, I'm aware that everyone has differing buff strengths, which makes me want to recast on a new ally when it's up again. 

What I would love to see is a check when the buff is refreshed: if they already have the buff, set potency to base version instead of decayed version.

That would be enough that I could count on buffing my party twice to get them to full strength. Call it a Dynamo effect, or revving up.

[Mikewho]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

This is completely false.

 

It not only has an offensive buffing power that directly increases damage, it has indirect means of increasing damage via +ToHit, +END and +Rech buffs.

 

The prospect of Shock Therapy being too clicky, I feel that some sets need to be.  There are far too many sets that are set-and-forget or that have main bread-n-butter clicks that are used once a fight.  Having some sets favor more micromanagement is going to benefit certain styles and ATs more which isn't a bad thing.  It's called variety.  In the case of variety, there will exist inequality and that is okay.

The damage buff is pretty minor and the other stats, while somewhat useful during leveling, make much less difference at high levels (everyone tends to have plenty of tohit/acc, have end under control, lots of recharge). So while there is a lot of value while leveling, endgame is a very different story.

[Monos King]

44 minutes ago, Mikewho said:

The damage buff is pretty minor and the other stats, while somewhat useful during leveling, make much less difference at high levels (everyone tends to have plenty of tohit/acc, have end under control, lots of recharge). So while there is a lot of value while leveling, endgame is a very different story.

The "not useful during endgame" argument has been very troubling to me, because it feels like it will always result in power creep. Right now we have ez mode incarnates and IOs. IOs alone can let a defender +4×8 (did it myself on an elec/kin) and then you throw on incarnates? All of the coveted characteristics like healing, +res, mez protection, +def are all Far and away covered for. You're maxed out, you're an incarnate, you're a god. Everything is 100% going to be easy, and the only thing you will be lacking is exotic or newer buffs like absorb, +hp, or debuff resistance, two of which Destiny does actually provide.

 

What I'm saying is whether or not something is relevant to end game is irrelevant, no one needs it then. If something comes up that actually IS useful to end game content, it'll likely be OP and certainly just make things even easier. But as the little things are still quite helpful before you reach top dog, they still matter and I like to see them installed in unique ways. And for anyone saying otherwise, Elec affin is definitely better than empathy for end game as it at least gets absorb and +secondary.

[Bossk_Hogg]

On 6/9/2020 at 1:11 PM, arcaneholocaust said:

I wouldn’t call poison underpowered. It’s volatility in terms of survivability is a reasonable tradeoff for its supreme debuffing imo.

 

For trick arrow I hope they will add another effect to poison gas arrow and/or disruption arrow with at least one of the two doing some -Regen. I also think flash arrow could afford to do a little more ToHit DeBuff even if at the cost of increasing the endurance and/or recharge.

It's not THAT supreme on debuffing though, as it is limited by the really small radius on its splash debuffs, which are lesser effects. I'd love to see the 8' radius get a bump, and some splash healing on Alkaloid.  Elixer of Life could really stand to be usable on living targets, but that is an issue with many rezzes. 

[plainguy]

I just wanted to back this thread as well.

 

The "COTTAGE RULE"  was full of good intentions BEFORE Invention Sets and the set bonuses they supply and Incarnates..

Force Field was greatly loved back then because it  gave everyone the defenses they needed.

It was even very useful in base raid PVP. 

 

But as the game evolved they added things that just made Force Field very much not needed.  But because of the cottage rule they couldn't make any constructive changes to it.

 

Nonetheless, my simple suggestion is create an alternate power the player can choose some similar to VEATS..  
Honestly I would like all sets to get a VEAT rework.. But we could start with Force Field...

 

 

 

[Bossk_Hogg]

I've said it before, but Sonic Siphon actually needs to SIPHON something and give a benefit to the caster. Either increase their resist, or heal the caster, or something. I dont like that it doesnt take sets and this would fix that. Siphon Life, Siphon Power, Siphon Speed etc all follow this model. What insidious villain is stealing the sonic I siphoned?!

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I've said it before, but Sonic Siphon actually needs to SIPHON something and give a benefit to the caster. Either increase their resist, or heal the caster, or something. I dont like that it doesnt take sets and this would fix that. Siphon Life, Siphon Power, Siphon Speed etc all follow this model. What insidious villain is stealing the sonic I siphoned?!

It does give something to the caster though...  That -res becomes +dmg in a roundabout way.

[Bossk_Hogg]

4 minutes ago, Apparition said:

It does give something to the caster though...  That -res becomes +dmg in a roundabout way.

I don't agree with that logic. Yes, it provides a debuff, which the other siphons do, but they also give a personal effect. If you want to argue it that way, then Siphon Power gives two caster/team buffs: + damage and + resist in the form of - damage. So Sonic Siphon is still underpowered. It's basically a shitty attack from Sonic Blast that deals no damage with a longish animation.

 

Sonic is god awful to try and solo. Boosting Sonic Siphon would make it slightly less agonizing should someone choose. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[Apparition]

4 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I don't agree with that logic. Yes, it provides a debuff, which the other siphons do, but they also give a personal effect. If you want to argue it that way, then Siphon Power gives two caster/team buffs: + damage and + resist in the form of - damage. So Sonic Siphon is still underpowered. It's basically a shitty attack from Sonic Blast that deals no damage with a longish animation.

 

Sonic is god awful to try and solo. Boosting Sonic Siphon would make it slightly less agonizing should someone choose. 

I know about the pain of soloing Sonic Resonance characters.  I soloed both a Thugs/Sonic MM and a Beam Rifle/Sonic Corruptor from level 1 to 50.  The Corruptor red side.  Here is the thing though... support sets aren’t meant to be soloed.  They almost all have powers that require other players.  Sonic has three.  Sure, you can do it.  I soloed five Force Field characters from level 1 to 50 before sunset.  That doesn’t mean that it is a good idea.

[Bossk_Hogg]

3 minutes ago, Apparition said:

I know about the pain of soloing Sonic Resonance characters.  I soloed both a Thugs/Sonic MM and a Beam Rifle/Sonic Corruptor from level 1 to 50.  The Corruptor red side.  Here is the thing though... support sets aren’t meant to be soloed.  They almost all have powers that require other players.  Sonic has three.  Sure, you can do it.  I soloed five Force Field characters from level 1 to 50 before sunset.  That doesn’t mean that it is a good idea.

So you agree your logic was faulty, and are just moving on to "Sonic should suck solo". Is Sonic so OP that this would put it in the top half of Support sets? Because they all solo better.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[Apparition]

2 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

So you agree your logic was faulty, and are just moving on to "Sonic should suck solo". Is Sonic so OP that this would put it in the top half of debuff sets?

No.  What I am saying is that buffing Sonic Siphon wouldn’t matter much, because in the end you are still fighting against the design of the power set.

[Monos King]

I don't even think sonic siphon giving caster a buff would do much tbh I just want the term siphon to be consistent lol

 

But actually, the comparison to existing sonic damage moves was good, because it definitely shows that Sonic Siphon kinda sucks. It lasts 30 seconds, but it can't even stack. It only takes two sonic damage moves to out do it's -res bonus, shriek + scream has the same activation time as one sonic siphon so those two moves essentially are better sonic siphon with damage. Sonic siphon is -30% res as a defender, shriek + scream is -40%. Then you quickly layer the -res and well, siphon is totally pale as a stand alone debuff. 

 

Really, just letting it stack would solve the problem. 

[Zeraphia]

2 hours ago, Monos King said:

I don't even think sonic siphon giving caster a buff would do much tbh I just want the term siphon to be consistent lol

 

But actually, the comparison to existing sonic damage moves was good, because it definitely shows that Sonic Siphon kinda sucks. It lasts 30 seconds, but it can't even stack. It only takes two sonic damage moves to out do it's -res bonus, shriek + scream has the same activation time as one sonic siphon so those two moves essentially are better sonic siphon with damage. Sonic siphon is -30% res as a defender, shriek + scream is -40%. Then you quickly layer the -res and well, siphon is totally pale as a stand alone debuff. 

 

Really, just letting it stack would solve the problem. 

I'm all for adding something to Sonic, but I think possibly allowing it to stack may create a big problem... you can probably get Sonic Siphon down to like 4.5s recharge with the current cast it's about 6.67s (both factored in the cast + recharge time) and that can be done 4 times with the 30 second duration which makes for -120% res against a single target, in addition can be used in conjunction with Disruption Field for -30% more so that quickly goes up to -150% res... and that's no procs added or needed. I think that's overpowered, especially when paired with Sonic Blast, you're looking at possibly getting -200% or less resistance that is 100% stackable from one team member alone.

 

However, I could see maybe a small heal, resistance, recharge, or something being "siphoned" as the name implies. Or possibly just changing the name and the cast rate and calling it a day would be fine.

[Monos King]

1 minute ago, Zeraphia said:

I'm all for adding something to Sonic, but I think possibly allowing it to stack may create a big problem... you can probably get Sonic Siphon down to like 4.5s recharge with the current cast it's about 6.67s (both factored in the cast + recharge time) and that can be done 4 times with the 30 second duration which makes for -120% res against a single target, in addition can be used in conjunction with Disruption Field for -30% more so that quickly goes up to -150% res... and that's no procs added or needed. I think that's overpowered, especially when paired with Sonic Blast, you're looking at possibly getting -200% or less resistance that is 100% stackable from one team member alone.

 

However, I could see maybe a small heal, resistance, recharge, or something being "siphoned" as the name implies. Or possibly just changing the name and the cast rate and calling it a day would be fine.

See, letting it stack might seem OP, but it isn't even at all. Sleet offers -30% res in an AoE, and it does stack. You can get it to -90% a bunch of enemies, mixed with heat losses -22% and thats AoE 112% res. From cold alone. And cold is just really good, far from OP. Sonics thing is supposed to be -res but it gets hard overshadowed by cold.

 

I'd like your other suggestions too tho.

[Zeraphia]

3 hours ago, Monos King said:

The "not useful during endgame" argument has been very troubling to me, because it feels like it will always result in power creep. Right now we have ez mode incarnates and IOs. IOs alone can let a defender +4×8 (did it myself on an elec/kin) and then you throw on incarnates? All of the coveted characteristics like healing, +res, mez protection, +def are all Far and away covered for. You're maxed out, you're an incarnate, you're a god. Everything is 100% going to be easy, and the only thing you will be lacking is exotic or newer buffs like absorb, +hp, or debuff resistance, two of which Destiny does actually provide.

 

What I'm saying is whether or not something is relevant to end game is irrelevant, no one needs it then. If something comes up that actually IS useful to end game content, it'll likely be OP and certainly just make things even easier. But as the little things are still quite helpful before you reach top dog, they still matter and I like to see them installed in unique ways. And for anyone saying otherwise, Elec affin is definitely better than empathy for end game as it at least gets absorb and +secondary.

I think you're also missing the point of Mike's post to a degree, I don't think he was saying anything on the premises of "needing" a support set to help carry people, he was trying to say that it doesn't provide as much of a benefit toward players as opposed to other sets. Kinetics and Cold are considered two of the top sets right now, and that is because of their ability to offensively neuter mobs and AV's in seconds with how hardcore debuffed the enemies or, or how buffed your teammates are offensively. 

 

I also don't consider this answer totally accurate, you can theoretically get by +4/x8 on some builds, but does that mean the build is actually good or effective for teams (the reason support sets exist in general)? I have seen many of these people who can "solo extremely well" not contribute so much on my teams, because they lack bringing either heavy-duty offense (via blast or melee set) or any meaningful form of damage improvement toward the team (in the form of -res or +dmg buffs, or even holding enemies so they can't use their heals or "lol kthxbai" hits). 

 

He wasn't wrong at all with what he said, people aren't dying to the point where these sets are "justified" offensively, even on low level teams. I hate sounding bitter but it is the truth. EA provides a very weak +dmg buff, and absolutely no -res to speak of which are the key reasons that other sets are picked over it even in regular gameplay.

[Monos King]

20 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

he was trying to say that it doesn't provide as much of a benefit toward players as opposed to other sets. Kinetics and Cold are considered two of the top sets right now, and that is because of their ability to offensively neuter mobs and AV's in seconds with how hardcore debuffed the enemies or, or how buffed your teammates are offensively. 

 

I also don't consider this answer totally accurate, you can theoretically get by +4/x8 on some builds, but does that mean the build is actually good or effective for teams (the reason support sets exist in general)? I have seen many of these people who can "solo extremely well" not contribute so much on my teams, because they lack bringing either heavy-duty offense (via blast or melee set) or any meaningful form of damage improvement toward the team (in the form of -res or +dmg buffs, or even holding enemies so they can't use their heals or "lol kthxbai" hits). 

He made particular notice of "end game" content, which is why the capacity of the individual player is relevant. At end game, something as solo incompatible as a defender is capable of soloing at +4x8 due to the immense strength of incarnate and IOs, which was meant to speak to the extreme strength of a team of self-sufficient archetypes. Because of how potent everyone is on their own in the end game, almost every buff is going to seem irrelevant at that stage. So suggesting, as he did, that 

 

4 hours ago, Mikewho said:

So while there is a lot of value while leveling, endgame is a very different story.

is pretty unimportant. Saying that the buffs aren't that good later on can  be said of really any of them aside from the exotic few I mentioned earlier, so using whether or not buffs have a lot of value in the end game as the criteria for whether or not it is lacking isn't really a good idea. That isn't just in regards to mike, but it is something I wanted to get out there. Everyone does tend to have the high combat attributes that he mentioned at higher level, but it is primarily due to the power of their own builds, and not the other sets that are seen like cold or kin. Otherwise, it would just be a meta-induced issue of people just liking those buffs more than others, as of course you wouldn't need elec affins buffs as much if you were layered with +def or +dmg from other sources. If you ran a LRSF or a BAF with only elec affin players as the support, you'd be fine. But it'd be slower. The issue is how powerful each person individualy is; they don't need what elec affin has to offer. But that doesn't make it lacking.

 

Don't get me wrong, elec affin is a only situationally powerful set that really has no place in the running and jumping about of incarnate content, but if the complaint is that the buffs themselves are not of real demand in high end stuff, I think that's to be expected.

[Outrider_01]

7 hours ago, Replacement said:

When used as a rez, I would strongly suggest targeting an ally instead. It should still sap-and-nap any enemies in range but guarantee the rez.

I do, its the problem of the teammates or NPC's standing in the way, think mosh pit over the face planted hero.  Howling Twilight is the same mechanic, 80 foot range with 15 foot radius rez....Defibrillator  is 7 foot activation and I don't know how big the radius; assuming its the same.  Shouldn't need TP Friend to stack and rez a group (thats just convience), I like to combat rez the important team member as you got awakens for wipes or at least until the battle has moved to the next room.  7 activation range just feels like a single target Resurrect in Empathy which is 10 by itself.

 

what I would like to see is a PBAoE EM Pulse (like in rad) which rezes the group with a stun component, a sleep is a joke (rez, team mates toss an AoE, NPC immediately activate powers cause lol endurance drain/recovery with 1 endurance cost powers).  if you are trying to rez 1 person who might be the primary buffer/debuffer or melee, a good stun will hold the baddies long enough to get toggles on or reposition.

  

9 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

I hadn't noticed the Defib, but I'm sure it is as much as a problem as you say. 

Yeah, if its AoE you got to assume its more like a combat rez since squishy classes don't need to toggle powers that much; not counting FoTM defense builds just as the thought behind SO slotting.  Rez, full health, full endurance, you would be popping damage or control powers (assuming your melee are not showing off and arm wrestling the bad guys like lumber jacks).   If its out of combat, you always got awakens as a back up.

 

Yeah know, I was just thinking on Trick Arrow.  What if Acid arrow had fire or energy damage component, to trigger Oil slick.  Fire Oil slick, target the group of baddies, and hit them with Acid, easy light up.  I think target cap rules might apply to that oil slick pet, but it would put the ability to light it more reliably in the same power set instead of relying on a power outside Trick Arrow.  I mean, how does Ice/Trick controller light it easily?  Huge advantage goes too the Thugs/TA MM or Fire/TA controller.

[Zepp]

I was looking at making a Mind Control / Sonic Resonance toon, but I tend to solo a lot... That means that I would end up skipping 6/9 of the sonic powers because they are completely useless for a solo player without pets. Force Field is in a similar place. It would be nice if their ally buffs could be AoEs that they can benefit from.

[zvelf]

On 6/10/2020 at 9:02 PM, Zepp said:

I was looking at making a Mind Control / Sonic Resonance toon, but I tend to solo a lot... That means that I would end up skipping 6/9 of the sonic powers because they are completely useless for a solo player without pets. Force Field is in a similar place. It would be nice if their ally buffs could be AoEs that they can benefit from.

Yes. It's really annoying that the power set gives more protection to allies than yourself. Yes, personal force field is awesome if a team is otherwise wiping, but you can't do anything while it's on. So aside from that, you yourself always have less defense than your allies even though it's your power set.

[arcane]

16 hours ago, zvelf said:

Yes. It's really annoying that the power set gives more protection to allies than yourself. Yes, personal force field is awesome if a team is otherwise wiping, but you can't do anything while it's on. So aside from that, you yourself always have less defense than your allies even though it's your power set.

It’s a support set.... 

[ClawsandEffect]

On 6/9/2020 at 2:38 PM, MTeague said:

REFLECTION, I love the idea of.  I have no idea if the engine supports anything like that , though.

 

EDIT:  though I think for simplicity's sake, we'd probably need a "you can't reflect a reflect" rule to keep infinite chaining

 

I actually had a conversation about this with Castle back on live. He actually sent me a PM explaining why it didn't exist in game. 

 

It is very doable with the game engine, but it requires so much computing power to keep track of what attack is reflecting back to what enemy that it will bog down the rest of the zone to an unacceptable degree.  This problem gets geometrically worse when you add additional characters with a reflect power. 

 

I have to assume that this hasn't changed. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by ClawsandEffect

[Bossk_Hogg]

9 minutes ago, ClawsandEffect said:

 

I actually had a conversation about this with Castle back on live. He actually sent me a PM explaining why it didn't exist in game. 

 

It is very doable with the game engine, but it requires so much computing power to keep track of what attack is reflecting back to what enemy that it will bog down the rest of the zone to an unacceptable degree.  This problem gets geometrically worse when you add additional characters with a reflect power. 

 

I have to assume that this hasn't changed. 

What about a chance for a 2 second melee range confuse pulse? That would simulate them trying to hit you and it bouncing off and hitting an ally.

[ClawsandEffect]

1 minute ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

What about a chance for a 2 second melee range confuse pulse? That would simulate them trying to hit you and it bouncing off and hitting an ally.

 

Sure. 

 

That's basically what World of Confusion from Mental Manipulation is already. 

 

Castle told me straight up that he COULD do a damage reflect power, but he would not because it had great potential to actually crash the game by overloading the system with calculations.