We've got a problem: Powerset bashing

[Frostbiter]

Why does this make me want a melee powerset thats all two-handed smashing attacks?

[Bastille Boy]

I encourage new players to play whatever attracts them thematically. But I do give this advice (and try to give it gently):

• If you play Empathy or another "healer" set, focus on buffs, debuffs, and attacks. Don't think of healing as your primary role in PVE.
• If your attacks include knockback, you should think about slotting knockback-to-knockdown enhancements. Knockback can be used skillfully, but it's tricky to do it well on teams.
• Energy Blast might not be the best choice for a new player, because of all the attacks with knockback. (I don't say this to people who've already chosen Energy Blast.)

If people are choosing an archetype for a first toon, I steer them toward the archetypes I consider most newbie friendly (melee or a def/corr with some self-protection) and away from ATs with more complicated mechanics (masterminds, dominators). I don't discuss epic archetypes because I haven't tried them.

[Strawberry]

I notice this on the boards, but I very rarely notice this in-game. I've never once seen someone kicked or refused from a team based on their powerset in-game (on Homecoming. Admittedly, I have on Live).

Sets I notice people bash on the boards:

 

• ForceField: Everyone constantly wants to say that everyone else has softcap defenses and FF is entirely useless. I personally wouldn't agree, but I do think FF needs some help for end-game play.
• Empathy: Empathy has always been my least favorite Defender powerset, but I don't bash it. I think it has many uses and used to love teaming with Empathy on my Sonic Defender back on Live because a healer in a team where everyone is getting high resistance from Sonic bubbles is actually quite amazing. Very rare that anyone will be one shot even a squishy pulling an alpha and the Empath has an easier time healing. I think the hate stems from way back in the old day when the MMO mind-set had many groups actively searching for a "healer", rather than a Defender/Support. It's easily one of the most played sets in the game, but you still see hate for it on the boards.
• Archery & Trick Arrow: Archery for non-blasters tends to get a lot of hate. Similarly Trick Arrow is very much disliked by the majority of the community. Again, I would heartily disagree with these biases.
• Kinetic Melee: I think one of the only positive threads I've ever seen on about Kinetic Melee was my own thread I posted. Hah! I really enjoy the set and think it's undervalued. Only times I see people recommend it are on Stalkers and it usually comes with the caveat to skip the tier 9 power.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Strawberry

[Yomo Kimyata]

20 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

Sets I notice people bash on the boards:

 

• Empathy: Empathy has always been my least favorite Defender powerset, but I don't bash it. I think it has many uses and used to love teaming with Empathy on my Sonic Defender back on Live because a healer in a team where everyone is getting high resistance from Sonic bubbles is actually quite amazing. Very rare that anyone will be one shot even a squishy pulling an alpha and the Empath has an easier time healing. I think the hate stems from way back in the old day when the MMO mind-set had many groups actively searching for a "healer", rather than a Defender/Support. It's easily one of the most played sets in the game, but you still see hate for it on the boards.
•  

I find this super interesting.  I made my first empathy defender yesterday and I've already gotten three blind invites from different people all at levels 30+ higher than my character.  I've also noticed that I get a lot of blind invites every time I play one of my alts that has "Doctor" in the name.  They're PhDs, dammit!

[Strawberry]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I find this super interesting.  I made my first empathy defender yesterday and I've already gotten three blind invites from different people all at levels 30+ higher than my character.  I've also noticed that I get a lot of blind invites every time I play one of my alts that has "Doctor" in the name.  They're PhDs, dammit!

Empathy is highly sought after in-game. More so on Live, but even on Homecoming, but on the forums many people talk badly about the set. Saying it is worthless at end-game, doesn't contribute vs AVs, and is the worst way to support/defend because everything is retroactive rather than proactive. At least this is what I've seen.

 

Edit - I just want to reiterate in this response that these are not my own personal feelings. Just things I've noticed people say repeatedly on the forums.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Strawberry

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, Strawberry said:

Kinetic Melee: I think one of the only positive threads I've ever seen on about Kinetic Melee was my own thread I posted. Hah! I really enjoy the set and think it's undervalued. Only times I see people recommend it are on Stalkers and it usually comes with the caveat to skip the tier 9 power.

 

I'll always and forever sing the praises of KinMelee… *especially* on Stalkers. They're just scary. A friend has a Kin/Shield Brute who's fairly terrifying in his own right, too.

 

I have to admit, I do miss having an actual build-up on the non-Stalker versions of KM, and yes... it has some slow animations... but still. The set isn't a bad one.

[ForeverLaxx]

This seeming obsession with trying to squash dissenting or negative opinion is troublesome. The implications that people can't handle anything that challenges them aside, the idea that only positive opinion/reinforcement is valuable is absurd. Instead of trying to make people be quiet when they don't agree, why not find out why they don't agree and determine if their stance has validity for the situation? I know that if I had been given only positive feedback on my art as a kid, I likely would have not improved much and wouldn't have gotten a scholarship for it down the line. Why improve when everyone tells you you're already perfect, right?

 

Flaming isn't the same thing, of course, but I see almost none of that when the question of what to play gets asked. An opinion in the negative isn't flaming by default, but trying to silence them on the basis that is is not something I can get behind.

[Linea]

On 6/12/2020 at 11:10 AM, MunkiLord said:

5 billion to anyone that does it and records the entire thing from start to finish.

You didn't specify difficulty, maybe it was mentioned elsewhere:

+0x8 I wouldn't even need half my armor.

+2x8 or below is an absolute cakewalk. 

+4x8, Jil  (Emp/Fire/Souldrain) has right at 250 ST DPS ... that means 1 hour per +4 AV kill without lore or inspirations.  I recommend you use both, otherwise it'll be a long day.

Jil's +4x8 Solo ITF run was right at 3 hours as I recall.

 

/Electric is lower dps:

/Electric would be lower dps.  I can tell you 250 dps (or lower) is absolutely maddening with the AVs running (it' not nearly so bad in anything OTHER than the ITF with the track-star AV).  You make two steps forward, they run, you take 1.5 steps back, repeat.  If I rebuilt as Emp/Elec/Souldrain ... I'd just gulp a bucket of reds when I hit the AV and take your money.  Without the candy, but with lore, it's gonna be maddening.  It would probably be similar to my 6 hour solo tank run.  You make progress while lore is up ... ambush lose all the progress ... (make progress with lore, stalemate, lore, ambush, start over,), (lore, stalemate, lore, stalemate, lore, ambush, start over) ... finally eventually (Lore, stalemate, lore, stalemate, lore, stalemate, dead! ... and he ressurects! *head desk*).  Welcome to a 6 hour solo run with a low dps build.

(Note: Back on live, my first ever solo +4x8 ITF took 16 in-game hours over a period of 30 real-time days.  Sanity is over-rated.)

 

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Linea

[MunkiLord]

@Linea I didn't, so long as it's at least +0x4 I'd happily give the five billion. And I feel such a slog would deserve the reward. That sounds like a terrible experience.

[Techno]

On 6/12/2020 at 11:10 AM, MunkiLord said:

5 billion to anyone that does it and records the entire thing from start to finish.

[MunkiLord]

@Techno has claimed the bounty! Congrats and this was awesome!

Edited June 17, 2020 by MunkiLord

[Linea]

18 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

@Linea I didn't, so long as it's at least +0x4 I'd happily give the five billion. And I feel such a slog would deserve the reward. That sounds like a terrible experience.

 

14 hours ago, Techno said:

48 minutes

 

I was gonna say, +0x8 should be less than an hour.  pretty much a cakewalk. 

[Bionic_Flea]

2 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

@Techno has claimed the bounty! Congrats and this was awesome!

Was there a video?

[Techno]

13 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Was there a video?

 

I did send him one, I can't share it with anyone else though unfortunately. It was a fun challenge!

[MunkiLord]

26 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Was there a video?

Yes I've seen it. 

[Bionic_Flea]

Ah.  Cool.  Thanks for the update and congrats on winning the challenge!

 

 

[Doomguide2005]

3 hours ago, Techno said:

 

I did send him one, I can't share it with anyone else though unfortunately. It was a fun challenge!

Yeah, much as we might like to see it I believe HC's current policies do not allow videos to be posted.

[kosten07]

Quote

Finally, we need some real accountability rules in help, lfg, and general chat. These are the first places new and returning players see. Plainly stated rules that appear upon player login would help in other areas, especially with the U.S.. general elections coming up this fall, but would certainly help to stem this problem as well. "Rules: 1. No politics or religion. See our Code of Conduct for details.  2. This is not the place to complain. Do so in our Suggestions and Feedback forum. Please /petition players who break the rules."

 

This is a terrible idea for so many reasons.

 

1) Do you really want to police players for having opinions just because they are different from your own?  You are advocating accountability for things that should be reserved for the more serious issues such as racial slurs, attacking sexual preference, etc..

 

2) The whole point of General Chat is to chat.  If you disagree with an opinion get in there and voice your opinion if you care that much about it. 

 

3) How would you enforce this?  Racial slurs, attacking sexual preference, etc. again as my example, is easily and clearly defined.  What you are advocating is a moving goalpost that is completely subjective to those who interpret individually.  No one would have a clear understanding of what is right or wrong.  This would lead to the very problem with Twitter right now. 

 

4) If you look around at whats going on in society you can see where this line of thinking has lead our culture into a very dark place.  No one wants to listen to anyone with a differing opinion or have civil discussions.  Someone has an opinion you disagree with, or with the majority of people, lets hold them accountable aka cancel culture.   Those that have a different opinion are bad.  I'm not saying this is what you want, but this is where it can lead.

 

5) Okay, lets say the Devs implemented this idea.  What's next?  Now we are tired of people talking about Brutes > Tankers etc. we should add this to our banned subjects...  and it just goes on and on.

 

Just let people vent or gripe and just ignore them.  If they aren't hurting anyone let them do them and you do you. 

 

I find myself much happier when not spending a moments thought when I see someone post something I dislike or disagree with, I just think to myself, "huh, well okay then," and move on being happy to punch a Hellion in the face.

[ZeeHero]

Honestly there is only one powerset I would currently actively discourage new people from playing for their own good. Energy Melee. anything else is easily just fine. EM is just too far behind in about every way.

[ZeeHero]

On 6/13/2020 at 4:41 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

I find this super interesting.  I made my first empathy defender yesterday and I've already gotten three blind invites from different people all at levels 30+ higher than my character.  I've also noticed that I get a lot of blind invites every time I play one of my alts that has "Doctor" in the name.  They're PhDs, dammit!

Empathy gets a bad rap becuase people think they should play it as pure healer when the real reason people love it is things like RA, Fortitude, and the other buffs. the healing is a side benefit- a great one especially at lower levels but a side benefit.

[nightroarer]

48 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Honestly there is only one powerset I would currently actively discourage new people from playing for their own good. Energy Melee. anything else is easily just fine. EM is just too far behind in about every way.

I have a level 30 EM/Invuln tank (soloer) that I've had a blast on so far. Since I don't numbers crunch, I figure my ignorance of EM deficiency is bliss. 🙂

[ZeeHero]

3 minutes ago, nightroarer said:

I have a level 30 EM/Invuln tank (soloer) that I've had a blast on so far. Since I don't numbers crunch, I figure my ignorance of EM deficiency is bliss. 🙂

Thats ok until you try +4 stuff solo the damage is SO low you'll be on a single group for like half an hour.

[nightroarer]

9 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Thats ok until you try +4 stuff solo the damage is SO low you'll be on a single group for like half an hour.

I don't +4 stuff, so it's not an issue for me. That shows the subjectivity involved in a lot of these discussions. Playstyle preferences can impact perceptions and outcomes in different ways.

 

That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see EM buffed to be more on par with other sets. I just don't see it as an unplayable mess. It's still fun, but can be more so.

Edited June 19, 2020 by nightroarer

[Frunobulax]

3 hours ago, nightroarer said:

I don't +4 stuff, so it's not an issue for me. That shows the subjectivity involved in a lot of these discussions. Playstyle preferences can impact perceptions and outcomes in different ways.

 

That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see EM buffed to be more on par with other sets. I just don't see it as an unplayable mess. It's still fun, but can be more so.

You'll be able to +4 eventually if you want to.

 

Worst case scenario for worrying about the damage of any powerset for an AT that isn't focused on providing damage: You need to proc it up a bit more then some other powersets once you're io'd up

 

And as a tanker you're not as pressed for slots (once you fill invun's holes anyways)

 

I haven't tried every modern tanker powerset yet but it seems to me that the gulf between damage in tanker secondaries pales compared to their gulf in damage between a tankers potential for damage compared to that of the actual damage archetypes anyways so you pretty much have to make your peace with relatively slow kills no matter what

[siolfir]

 

On 6/13/2020 at 4:41 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

On 6/13/2020 at 4:19 PM, Strawberry said:

Sets I notice people bash on the boards:

 

• Empathy: Empathy has always been my least favorite Defender powerset, but I don't bash it. I think it has many uses and used to love teaming with Empathy on my Sonic Defender back on Live because a healer in a team where everyone is getting high resistance from Sonic bubbles is actually quite amazing. Very rare that anyone will be one shot even a squishy pulling an alpha and the Empath has an easier time healing. I think the hate stems from way back in the old day when the MMO mind-set had many groups actively searching for a "healer", rather than a Defender/Support. It's easily one of the most played sets in the game, but you still see hate for it on the boards.
•  

I find this super interesting.  I made my first empathy defender yesterday and I've already gotten three blind invites from different people all at levels 30+ higher than my character.  I've also noticed that I get a lot of blind invites every time I play one of my alts that has "Doctor" in the name.  They're PhDs, dammit!

 

It doesn't have to be an empathy character. I've had the most blind invites when I'm playing Worst Healer Ever (who happens to be a Psi/Bio Stalker).

 

As for the OP: if you don't like someone expressing an opinion, why should they listen to yours? If you don't like what they're saying, provide a counter. As many in this thread have said, if someone is asking for advice on what's good or bad, I don't plan on sugar-coating things. If they're dead set on playing it, then I'll wish them well - and depending on how nice I feel like being, may even help them further - but I'm going to tell them at least once that I wouldn't recommend the set, if it's one that I have played and hated. I'll even tell them why.

Edited June 19, 2020 by siolfir