"Meta" Tweaks

[Omega-202]

1 minute ago, Redlynne said:

You're conflating two separate problems into a single problem and prescribing a One Size Fits All for both problems when only one of the problems IS a problem (maximum performance) when the other problem ISN'T a problem (minimum performance).

 

That's kind of like saying ... the millionaires are earning too much money, so we need to lower the minimum wage!

 

To which my reply is ... why are you trying to hurt the people at the bottom in order to apply a corrective to the people at the top?  Especially when it's only the top end that needs that corrective, while the bottom end doesn't.

I don't think either of you is understanding the other. 

[Replacement]

58 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

You're conflating two separate problems into a single problem and prescribing a One Size Fits All for both problems when only one of the problems IS a problem (maximum performance) when the other problem ISN'T a problem (minimum performance).

 

That's kind of like saying ... the millionaires are earning too much money, so we need to lower the minimum wage!

 

To which my reply is ... why are you trying to hurt the people at the bottom in order to apply a corrective to the people at the top?  Especially when it's only the top end that needs that corrective, while the bottom end doesn't.

Ok, so the part that wasn't clear to me was that you think unenhanced aoe damage is where it needs to be.  Or to put it another way, you think aoe's scaling is radically stronger than ST, and I think I see what you mean... Since aoe damage multiplies with targets hit, it will naturally gain exponential scaling as you become able to take on larger and larger groups.

 

Ok, i feel like I'm coming at this from a different frame of mind than you, but I can find some a lot of logic here.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

Ok, so the part that wasn't clear to me was that you think unenhanced aoe damage is where it needs to be.  Or to put it another way, you think aoe's scaling is radically stronger than ST, and I think I see what you mean... Since aoe damage multiplies with targets hit, it will naturally gain exponential scaling as you become able to take on larger and larger groups.

Geometric, not exponential.

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It matters for a large amount of powersets to feel "effective" in normal gameplay. The normal gameplay loop heavily favors AoEs mowing through hoards of enemies for the majority of interactions which in turn favors certain powersets and playstyles over others. Each of those could (and honestly should) be looked at individually, but the flipside would be to introduce gameplay that favors the "forgotten" playstyles instead to give them new value. The latter being more economic as many sets suffer from similar issues when judged against what we observe as the norm.

Yeah.  I mean I'm in the increase the difficulty camp.   Fix the outlier sets.   Make a reason for Control .. etc etc etc.

 

I just see it as a war that's been lost.  

[Redlynne]

50 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I just see it as a war that's been lost.

It was lost before we even knew there was a battlefield to fight upon.

[Xanatos]

On 6/22/2020 at 11:55 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

• Increase the base HP of Bosses/Elite Bosses by 20%. This would require 3/6 8 man cycles at +0, and 7/13 cycles at +4 for your normal AoEs to wipe out these targets, while allowing ST DPS to shine as you can still take down these tougher targets faster while the AoE specialists wipe Minions and LT's and still contribute
• Give Bosses/Elite Bosses inherent AoE defense. Not sure on the number here, but maybe something like 15%ish sounds right to allow them to sometimes just flat out "deflect" the AoEs that wipe out their underlings, and over time allow ST damage to shine brighter against them

 

First idea would make soloing and casual/unoptimized play more difficult. This would negatively impact the majority of players. /unsigned.

 

Second idea would make controller AOE mezzes weaker. This would make controllers even more irrelevant at level 50. /unsigned.
 

IMO the first step to fixing the surplus of AOE damage at the super high end (assuming that it even exists in the majority of level 50 teams...I'm not sure that it does) is to either remove judgement, or have it greyed out when teaming.

[Galaxy Brain]

4 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

First idea would make soloing and casual/unoptimized play more difficult. This would negatively impact the majority of players. /unsigned.

 

Second idea would make controller AOE mezzes weaker. This would make controllers even more irrelevant at level 50. /unsigned.
 

IMO the first step to fixing the surplus of AOE damage at the super high end (assuming that it even exists in the majority of level 50 teams...I'm not sure that it does) is to either remove judgement, or have it greyed out when teaming.

In my OP, I showed how strong just your average AoE is. The problem extends beyond judgement.

[Haijinx]

17 hours ago, Redlynne said:

It was lost before we even knew there was a battlefield to fight upon.

I think maybe its just more relaxing to concede defeat now.  

 

Then it doesn't bother you near as much.  

 

I am thinking of making a new Blaster.  I may destroy everything super fast, but at least there is an element of risk involved.  

[golstat2003]

52 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

In my OP, I showed how strong just your average AoE is. The problem extends beyond judgement.

Assuming one thinks AOEs are a problem. I don’t think the majority of players think so.

[Galaxy Brain]

9 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Assuming one thinks AOEs are a problem. I don’t think the majority of players think so.

Well, they sort of are when you want to boil down why certain sets "suck" and why the "game is too easy"

[golstat2003]

9 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Well, they sort of are when you want to boil down why certain sets "suck" and why the "game is too easy"

Hmmmm, the majority don’t care if the game is too easy as long as they can hop on a team and play or can easily solo on their own. But this is a side discussion, and not really relevant to those who are looking for more challenge options.

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Xanatos said:

Second idea would make controller AOE mezzes weaker. This would make controllers even more irrelevant at level 50. /unsigned.

In a vacuum.  I would like to point out GB is, in this very thread, pushing for mez buffs.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Replacement

[Xanatos]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

In my OP, I showed how strong just your average AoE is. The problem extends beyond judgement.

 

The team setup in your OP does not apply to the majority of teams at 50. So any conclusions you draw from it lack a wider application. Sorry.

 

That said, your observations do apply to min/maxed level 50 teams. Which is where the conversation should focus IMO. (I.e. No suggestions for changes that will impact casual/regular/bad players. Such as buffing bosses, nerfing AOE, etc.)

 

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

In a vacuum.  I would like to point out GB is, in this very thread, pushing for mez buffs.

 

Buffing mezzes...whilst making them miss more? Pointless.

 

Anyway, the problem isn't the strength of the mezzes. The problem is that the controllers aren't given the opportunity to mez in min/maxed level 50 teams when everyone is playing optimally. It doesn't matter if your hold is mag 3 or mag 5000 if your min/maxed level 50 team-mates are AOEing everything to death.

 

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Well, they sort of are when you want to boil down why certain sets "suck" and why the "game is too easy"

 

No-one finds the game too easy.

 

Some people dislike that others find it easier than they do, though.

 

But that's just your usual casual-player-whining-that-the-min/maxer-is-better-at-the-game rhetoric you find on all MMORPG message boards.

 

Anyway, academic. Not relevant to whether controllers needs buffing or not.

 

----

 

While I'm still unconvinced that there is a surplus of AoE damage and that said surplus is a significant problem to the majority of non-min/maxed level 50 teams. (Outside of Judgement, which I consider to be one of the worst things ever added to CoH.) I can still see that controllers are probably due a buff that will allow them to contribute to the level 50 min/max meta. Controllers are one of the most popular ATs, and it's not fair they are left out.

 

Let's consider the current min/max meta at 50:

• Damage
• Support (buffs/debuffs)
• Tanks (take the alpha, group the next spawn)

Controllers do Support already. Damage isn't their role. So maybe something that lets them "ghetto tank" with their primary would be the best way to fit them into the meta? Like so:

• Controllers taking the alpha - Give controllers something akin to the blaster buffs - higher HP cap, more survivability, etc. (They will still be more squishy than tanks, but their controls should help mitigate this.) Although I'm worried doing this might start a slippery-slope for Defenders/Corruptors/Dominators all getting something like this.
• Controllers group the next spawn - Give the T1 controller power the ability to "bunch" up a spawn. (Similar to how tanks do). It would work like this: You select one enemy in the group with it, hit fire, and the result is a reverse propulsion-field. Every other enemy in the group is drawn to the target for a second or two. (Long enough for the controller to get off their AOE mezzes.)

So while everyone is AOEing spawn one to death, the controller is prepping spawn two. Their bunching and controls helping to streamline the damage-train, much in the same way tanks play in the current meta. This would make controllers very welcome in min/maxed level 50 teams IMO. (And would also make them more useful in regular teams!)

 

Benefits of this idea are that it doesn't add to the AOE damage creep, it doesn't make the game harder for everyone else, and it doesn't nerf anyone.

 

Thoughts?

Edited June 27, 2020 by Xanatos

[Zeraphia]

10 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Anyway, the problem isn't the strength of the mezzes. The problem is that the controllers aren't given the opportunity to mez in min/maxed level 50 teams when everyone is playing optimally. It doesn't matter if your hold is mag 3 or mag 5000 if your min/maxed level 50 team-mates are AOEing everything to death.

This is sort of circular, but I actually completely agree with what you've said despite it being pretty controversial for a lot of die-hard Controller supporters. I think another detail here is that these powers (judgements and nukes) kill enemies too fast for controls to be viable, thus there needs to be more difficult content that would nullify the "roflstomp" of judgements to make controls worthwhile for teams. And I think this is the root of the issue with controls, the content presented is not difficult enough for min/max'd 50s who have these powers. Today I exemped down in a Night Ward mission arc as a level 37 and I played a Dominator. I was at first just playing how I normally would in fast-paced teams who don't need the actual controls, I just go through my normal ST damage rotation on bosses and my more "regular" AoEs on minions/lieus. However, I soon came to realize how valuable  my Dark Controls were to the team when they actually started having people die less and the content genuinely progressed much faster by turning enemies into "statues." This is an example of how more difficult content without judgements giving the ability to just nuke everything into nothing make controls for a lot of teams genuinely very beneficial. 

 

17 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Let's consider the current min/max meta at 50:

• Damage
• Support (buffs/debuffs)
• Tanks (take the alpha, group the next spawn)

Controllers do Support already. Damage isn't their role. So maybe something that lets them "ghetto tank" with their primary would be the best way to fit them into the meta? Like so:

• Controllers taking the alpha - Give controllers something akin to the blaster buffs - higher HP cap, more survivability, etc. (They will still be more squishy than tanks, but their controls should help mitigate this.) Although I'm worried doing this might start a slippery-slope for Defenders/Corruptors/Dominators all getting something like this.
• Controllers group the next spawn - Give the T1 controller power the ability to "bunch" up a spawn. (Similar to how tanks do). It would work like this: You select one enemy in the group with it, hit fire, and the result is a reverse propulsion-field. Every other enemy in the group is drawn to the target for a second or two. (Long enough for the controller to get off their AOE mezzes.)

So while everyone is AOEing spawn one to death, the controller is prepping spawn two. Their bunching and controls helping to streamline the damage-train, much in the same way tanks play in the current meta. This would make controllers very welcome in min/maxed level 50 teams IMO.

 

Benefits of this idea are that it doesn't add to the AOE damage creep, it doesn't make the game harder for everyone else, and it doesn't nerf anyone.

 

Thoughts?

So this is an interesting and IMO, a fair analysis. I do view Taunt as a form of CC, because that is what it is, you're controlling the crowd and how it behaves/interacts with you and your teammates. I do think Taunts actually belong to controllers, and I can indeed agree with this actually to make them stronger. I would like to see this done in a way that doesn't "out class" or "out shine" Tankers/Brutes themselves, but I think giving them some actually beefy resistances/defenses, the ability to taunt/group properly would indeed be a wonderful buff for them. 

 

I personally don't see Defenders/Corruptors slipping into this "slippery slope" category, their role is damage with stronger supports (for Defender) it is exceptionally clear where they are with their nukes and support capabilities, therefore I do not see the argument contending with them as much as I do with Controllers. That said, Dominators would be in sort of a "weird" spot, but IMO their actually great damage will still make them welcomed/fine.

[Galaxy Brain]

21 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

The team setup in your OP does not apply to the majority of teams at 50. So any conclusions you draw from it lack a wider application. Sorry.

 

That said, your observations do apply to min/maxed level 50 teams. Which is where the conversation should focus IMO. (I.e. No suggestions for changes that will impact casual/regular/bad players. Such as buffing bosses, nerfing AOE, etc.)

I'm curious, how does finding the average base damage for a "large", non nuke AoE and then applying 95% (basic) damage enhancement and about 60% added enhanced damage to account for the variety of buffs ATs naturally get or are passed around in a team not usable data?

 

Yes, specific teams may not match this but if you were to look at tons of team layouts averaged it should pan out close to this, no?

 

21 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Buffing mezzes...whilst making them miss more? Pointless.

In a vacuum yes, but AoE attacks and Mezzes could be treated differently.

21 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

Anyway, the problem isn't the strength of the mezzes. The problem is that the controllers aren't given the opportunity to mez in min/maxed level 50 teams when everyone is playing optimally. It doesn't matter if your hold is mag 3 or mag 5000 if your min/maxed level 50 team-mates are AOEing everything to death.

Agreed, and as shown even if AoE mezzes were auto hit they'd be outclassed by average AoEs. There needs to be some way to give them value in a meta where the AoE damage of even basic set ups is so strong.

21 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

No-one finds the game too easy.

 

Some people dislike that others find it easier than they do, though.

 

But that's just your usual casual-player-whining-that-the-min/maxer-is-better-at-the-game rhetoric you find on all MMORPG message boards.

 

Anyway, academic. Not relevant to whether controllers needs buffing or not.

Many people online would say otherwise. If the game is to easy, either with enemies dying quickly or personal defenses too good, then yes that devalues controllers.

21 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

----

 

While I'm still unconvinced that there is a surplus of AoE damage and that said surplus is a significant problem to the majority of non-min/maxed level 50 teams. (Outside of Judgement, which I consider to be one of the worst things ever added to CoH.) I can still see that controllers are probably due a buff that will allow them to contribute to the level 50 min/max meta. Controllers are one of the most popular ATs, and it's not fair they are left out.

 

Let's consider the current min/max meta at 50:

• Damage
• Support (buffs/debuffs)
• Tanks (take the alpha, group the next spawn)

Controllers do Support already. Damage isn't their role. So maybe something that lets them "ghetto tank" with their primary would be the best way to fit them into the meta? Like so:

• Controllers taking the alpha - Give controllers something akin to the blaster buffs - higher HP cap, more survivability, etc. (They will still be more squishy than tanks, but their controls should help mitigate this.) Although I'm worried doing this might start a slippery-slope for Defenders/Corruptors/Dominators all getting something like this.
• Controllers group the next spawn - Give the T1 controller power the ability to "bunch" up a spawn. (Similar to how tanks do). It would work like this: You select one enemy in the group with it, hit fire, and the result is a reverse propulsion-field. Every other enemy in the group is drawn to the target for a second or two. (Long enough for the controller to get off their AOE mezzes.)

So while everyone is AOEing spawn one to death, the controller is prepping spawn two. Their bunching and controls helping to streamline the damage-train, much in the same way tanks play in the current meta. This would make controllers very welcome in min/maxed level 50 teams IMO. (And would also make them more useful in regular teams!)

 

Benefits of this idea are that it doesn't add to the AOE damage creep, it doesn't make the game harder for everyone else, and it doesn't nerf anyone.

 

Thoughts?

A singularity effect would be awesome, and is hopefully in the works with the vectored knockback. However, it still doesnt help the usage of their other control powers.

[Xanatos]

44 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

So this is an interesting and IMO, a fair analysis. I do view Taunt as a form of CC, because that is what it is, you're controlling the crowd and how it behaves/interacts with you and your teammates. I do think Taunts actually belong to controllers, and I can indeed agree with this actually to make them stronger. I would like to see this done in a way that doesn't "out class" or "out shine" Tankers/Brutes themselves, but I think giving them some actually beefy resistances/defenses, the ability to taunt/group properly would indeed be a wonderful buff for them. 

 

I'd avoid giving controllers any sort of taunt or aggro management. That should help avoid them overshadowing tanks/brutes. Their mezzes serve the same function, anyway.

 

@Galaxy Brain - Stop skimreading my posts. I already explained where the window for controller controls would apply in  min/maxed level 50 teams.  I'll break it down, again, to make it easier for you:

 

Team starts fighting Spawn 1

Controller bunches Spawn 2

Controller mezzes Spawn 2

Team starts fighting fighting Spawn 2

Controller bunches Spawn 3

Controller mezzes Spawn 3

Team starts fighting Spawn 3

Controller bunches Spawn 4
Ad infinitum

 

The controller is always playing one spawn ahead. You know., the same way tanks play in the  min/maxed level 50 meta. (You...do know how tanks play in the meta, right?) Except keeping enemies off-of team-mates with mez, rather than by taunting them.

 

The two suggestions I outlined allow for the controllers to survive the alpha, gives them tools to bunch with, and allows them to use their mezzes/primary powerset. My two suggestions solve the problems with regards to controllers in the current meta without making the game more tedious for everyone else. (I.e. by nerfing powers, or buffing enemies.)

Edited June 27, 2020 by Xanatos

[golstat2003]

36 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I'm curious, how does finding the average base damage for a "large", non nuke AoE and then applying 95% (basic) damage enhancement and about 60% added enhanced damage to account for the variety of buffs ATs naturally get or are passed around in a team not usable data?

 

Yes, specific teams may not match this but if you were to look at tons of team layouts averaged it should pan out close to this, no?

 

In a vacuum yes, but AoE attacks and Mezzes could be treated differently.

Agreed, and as shown even if AoE mezzes were auto hit they'd be outclassed by average AoEs. There needs to be some way to give them value in a meta where the AoE damage of even basic set ups is so strong.

Many people online would say otherwise. If the game is to easy, either with enemies dying quickly or personal defenses too good, then yes that devalues controllers.

A singularity effect would be awesome, and is hopefully in the works with the vectored knockback. However, it still doesnt help the usage of their other control powers.

Actually it would help with the other thing that controllers can do -- debuffing. Which is extremely powerful. When I form teams and invite controllers, I'm not just seeking their control abilities. Especially since buffs and debuffs can be a force multiplier.

Edited June 27, 2020 by golstat2003

[Galaxy Brain]

@Xanatos, I did not skim read, and I am aware of how lvl 50 teams play. 

 

This idea would help controllers, would it be copied to Dominators as well? 

[Monos King]

4 hours ago, Xanatos said:

Give the T1 controller power the ability to "bunch" up a spawn. (Similar to how tanks do). It would work like this: You select one enemy in the group with it, hit fire, and the result is a reverse propulsion-field. Every other enemy in the group is drawn to the target for a second or two. (Long enough for the controller to get off their AOE mezzes.)

This is an interesting idea, that I assume would be given to dominators as well. Perhaps only when domination is on in their case. Also, giving the t1 abilities an outright pulling effect is probably unwarranted strength, but in accordance with the tank comparison it would be more appropriate to give the target of the control/doms single target CC a taunt around the target, or similar effect. It would be interesting if it simply caused all nearby to quickly move and gather around their prone alley - like they were investigating. This might be more difficult to install, but I imagine it looking like when one orders MM henchmen "Go-to". They would then even be less likely to stray from the targeted enemy. There are two things to note:

1. This change would be utterly pointless in modern upper group play. 

If it were added as is proposed with what I presume to be vector knockback, that would simply contribute to powercreep...on paper. An unresistable (as it must be so the controller can reliably fulfill its new role) knockback that leaves enemies helpless and readies enemies for AoE death is too much. Particularly at lower level content. Unlike you believe, various people do find the game too easy. This would also undermine powers that intend to make use of said affect in the future at any rate. Luckily, even if this were promulgated as proposed, teams at the high end (where this thread truly hopes to make a difference) do not even need obey the  tank go first meta that you have earlier mentioned. Once the buffs are on, it is now DPS death for everyone via nukes, glancing AoEs, and incarnates if they even need those. With tanks dps buffs, they are really just fitting into that end, and brutes already had. Both taunting and this envisioned control aggregation are little more than suggestions next to damage. I do still believe this is a great idea and concept, particularly for low level team or solo play, but I would need to discuss further on how it would truly benefit control AT relevance at upper content.

 

It seems like you are attempting to make controlls more relevant to AoE dmg, since that is what makes them irrelevant to begin with. But as you mentioned, trollers were already meant to be up there with the tanks and dropping wide AoEs before fights. It is simply unnecessary to wait for them due to how self-sufficient and powerful each individual already is. Amongst other things, it is this excess of strength (actually the ease of acquiring it) that leads some of us to call the game "too easy".

 

          2. Multiple controllers

 

In some regards this is a minor issue that simple communication and coordination can solve, but the brunching/aggregation of enemies can quickly be rendered null if multiple control types are on the same mob. This will be more common in raids. How the multiple "pulls" will interact depends on how this is implemented, but if it is through vector knockback this will simply, again, be far too strong. Enemies would be perpetually juggled until their death seconds later, without any need for tactical knockback or even the AoE holds to begin with. If it is my alternative, the effect will fail altogether, or perhaps simply overwrite, but my understanding of the original would result in tug of war in some instances, assuming the enemies are not already dead from damage storms or constantly juggled from the t1 aggregating.

 

Now, this was assuming the effect will be unresistable to bosses and EB, but it could be made to affect minions and lieutentants only, to great avail. Depending on implementation this might still undermine AoE holds, which is why I believe the pseudo taunt on target approach would be safer. This would also still work on bosses and EBs, without rendering anyone prone aside from the target of the t1 move. However, most enemies are already in groups. I can think of a few instances where it might be convenient but they mostly compose of hardly relevant line-ups for Ion Judgement, and slightly better debuff angles. In high end content, this would hold no water, as it stands - since there is still no incentive to not just eradicate everything in sight. And, in lower content, everything would be helpless against the main form of installing this feature that I am currently aware of would work. I am curious as to if you have ideas on how to solve these issues as well.

[Xanatos]

 

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

[T]eams at the high end (where this thread truly hopes to make a difference) do not even need obey the  tank go first meta that you have earlier mentioned. Once the buffs are on, it is now DPS death for everyone via nukes, glancing AoEs, and incarnates if they even need those[...]It is simply unnecessary to wait for [tanks] due to how self-sufficient and powerful each individual already is.

Speaking as someone who plays min/max blasters that can solo +4/8. I like it, when teamed, when Tanks "bunch" spawns ahead of the one being killed. It makes my AOEs hit more enemies as they are closer together. At no point am I ever waiting for the tanker to gather anything...he/she's doing it while I'm killing a different spawn.

 

Would another blaster wiping out the second spawn whilst I wipe out the first spawn be more effective for the team? Of course. But if it's a Tank I'm teamed with at least he/she serves a purpose in the spot that blaster would have otherwise occupied. Right now, controllers don't even do that IMO.

 

My bad on the knockback thing. I meant to say Force Bubble rather than Repulsion Field. (Was thinking of reverse-repel rather than reverse-knockback.) Obviously a KB affect would be OP. I like your idea of making it function like a pet go_to/pseudo taunt.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Xanatos

[Monos King]

46 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

I meant to say Force Bubble rather than Repulsion Field. (Was thinking of reverse-repel rather than reverse-knockback.)

I think that's a pretty awesome idea actually; I'd be fine with either of our approaches being taken. It would depend if repel can receive the same changes knockback will be seeing, but definitely a great possibility - if not for this new mechanic then just in general. Giving controllers a higher utility is a total +1 for me, in spite of the later concerns that exist as you hit end content.

 

In order for these features, along with ordinary AoE CC to shine, enemies must actually see a detriment from these powers. For me, this means them having some means of protection against damage storms, that the controll effects mitigate. This is why I (for those curious) am in the party of buffing enemies. This next portion is aimed at everyone reading. Being able to control the location of enemies is fantastic when they have damage patches, damage auras, or group buffs. Being able to mez them out of toggle protection is always relevant. Being able to shut them down so that damage can be done is pertinent when the enemies were stopping said thing from occuring. Fighting a mob of paragon protectors, dark astoria enemies, devouring earth (in some cases), or malta are all great examples of when diverse team work flourishes, and it is because everything each archetype brings is beneficial, counters a hostile ability, and takes enormous amounts of to be successful alone without a different ATs element being added to complete the effort. For example, malta comes with equal parts debuff equal parts damage that makes dps blitzing without tank death and tanking without support suicide. The same with incarnate banished pantheon. However, even in these instances damage will become king due to how overwhelmingly strong we all are. Without undermining the power we've earned, I'd like to see buffs added. These could be in the form of more toggles, more group buff lieutenants, or simple +6 enemy spawns, regardless without an improvement to enemy strength there will come no need for any utility outside of damage roles and one or two tanks.

[nihilii]

11 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Well, [AoEs] sort of are [a problem] when you want to boil down why certain sets "suck"

But is that so, really?

 

Street Justice is considered a top tier set and has abysmal AoE. Dark Melee has also its share of fans; although admittedly many of whom pair it with Shield. Illusion is beloved despite being the least AoE capable control set. Ice Blast and Sonic Blast have awful AoE yet enjoy some popularity.

On the other end of the spectrum, some sets with great AoE don't get much love. Fire Melee. Elec Blast. Radiation Blast. Sentiment often goes *against* Fiery Armor anywhere but in AE, which leads forumgoers to specify you can in fact make it work in the real game.

I think the only instance where I've heard "this set sucks because it has no AoE" is EM. And that perception is debatable. IMHO, EM suffers because it's been nerfed to the ground, and because no model properly accounts for the impact ET's -HP has on survivability. It is a bad set overall, which leaves any of us to summon their own justifications as to why.

[Infinitum]

8 hours ago, Xanatos said:

Ad infinitum

Where is my Ad?

 

So little tidbits I've gleaned the last couple of days.

 

Been running a sg team we are calling the tour of paragon. No dbl xp, no ae leveling no radio missions etc. Sets and bonuses are ok.

 

Currently around lvl 20 and just got finished with the skulls in KR.  In Steel canyon now.

 

It's been a refreshing change of pace, and a little illuminating.

 

1. We have rarely broken out of +1 difficulty level - usually run on 0 lvl.

 

I am setted out with everything the attuned enh lvl will allow and it's still challenging, and could honestly use a Troller or 2, we are doing pretty well out damaging it all but it gets dicey at times especially with skull bosses that can rip you to shreds.

 

I'm going to keep watch to see when the game potentially gets too easy but as it is now we ain't there lol.

 

2. I think this reflects our perception of where we are as a meta type group.

 

This is the first time I have personally played through the game in over a year. Which is kinda sad really because I have been missing out - and I think a lot of us are also guilty of this - not necessarily using AE but skipping most of the games content.

 

Guilty as charged - I have AEd around 30 characters to 50 and fully setted them out because I am/was addicted to the endgame.

 

There's nothing really wrong with that either, because there is tough enough endgame content for everyone to contribute - there just isn't enough of it, and eventually it becomes stale.

 

That's why there needs to be more endgame content - and also an added difficulty mode - but definately content.

 

3. The leveling content is diverse, we are at level 20 and have basically run Atlas - Hollows - Kings Row - now Steel.  There's many other avenues you could take, and I'm more than a little embarrassed I forgot this about this game.  It's very diverse and versatile - literally thousands of ways to play and enjoy.

 

4.  I had almost come to the conclusion there was an issue with the game and it's balance, but now I think it's more of a perception issue and getting stuck with a particular endgame mindset that isn't challenging.  Which reflects back again on lack of content and rewards not symmetric with the difficulty of what you are actually doing.

 

Maybe there should be a way to scale down the Itrials so you don't need 24 people to do them?

 

5. It's easy to say the game is easy when you tailor your team and mission to make it easy, but there really isn't much wrong with that, it's just becoming extremely proficient with the characters, teams, and content.  There's nothing left to stun or surprise - lack of content.

 

Adding a difficulty mode may alleviate that for a while but unless it's dynamic in what it throws at ya, that will be outpaced by experience eventually too.

 

So I guess the long and short of it is, there's not really an easy fix for this because you can't unlearn what you have learned - and you should not have to either, because there are ways to find a path for everyone to contribute, even on a resurrected game this old.

 

Just have to find the right crew to hang with that looks to include everyone and whatever their desires are.

 

There are people that are only in it for the speed and burn approach, and there isn't anything wrong with that either. 

 

Thousands of ways to play.

[ShardWarrior]

On 6/27/2020 at 1:30 PM, Xanatos said:

IMO the first step to fixing the surplus of AOE damage at the super high end (assuming that it even exists in the majority of level 50 teams...I'm not sure that it does) is to either remove judgement, or have it greyed out when teaming.

No thank you. 

[golstat2003]

9 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

No thank you. 

Agreed. All incarnate powers should stay as is.