Aim?

[Clave Dark 5]

This is probably going to be a profoundly stupid question that will follow me the rest of my days on these boards, forever nipping at my heals whenever I open my mouth here; each of you will nudge the other and roll your eyes, muttering "this guy."  But here goes:

 

Aim, that power that all the blasters and corruptors and others get, is it all the important?  I mean, am I missing something?  I tend to play distance shooters and squishies, and I hardly ever think to click it in the heat of combat, and when I have I didn't really notice anything different in my chances to hit. 

 

Sure, I could slot a Gaussian's in there, but those go better in Tactics (especially the proc).  I see everyone apparently does work Aim their builds that they post here, but they never seem to slot it much past two Recharges (unless they just dump their Gaussian's set in there instead of Tactics for some reason).

 

Might one even, gasp, skip Aim?

 

tl;dr:   Aim?  More like 'lame', right?!

 

Let the pillorying begin!

 

[Carnifax]

23 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

but those go better in Tactics (especially the proc)

Why? I prefer a "double damage buff" when my biggest AOE / AOE chain is up vs it pinging randomly without much control. Build Up is more important (and usually where I stick the Gaussians) but Aim is useful too for "Turn it to 11" nukes. 

 

But if it's a case of Gaussians Build Up + Aim vs Gaussians Build Up + Tactics then you could indeed be correct (assuming you've got the Pool Power room to take Leadership of course, that can be tight too if one is going Full Flight for 2 LOTG spots in Hover and Afterburner).

[Sovera]

45 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

This is probably going to be a profoundly stupid question that will follow me the rest of my days on these boards, forever nipping at my heals whenever I open my mouth here; each of you will nudge the other and roll your eyes, muttering "this guy."  But here goes:

 

Aim, that power that all the blasters and corruptors and others get, is it all the important?  I mean, am I missing something?  I tend to play distance shooters and squishies, and I hardly ever think to click it in the heat of combat, and when I have I didn't really notice anything different in my chances to hit. 

 

Sure, I could slot a Gaussian's in there, but those go better in Tactics (especially the proc).  I see everyone apparently does work Aim their builds that they post here, but they never seem to slot it much past two Recharges (unless they just dump their Gaussian's set in there instead of Tactics for some reason).

 

Might one even, gasp, skip Aim?

 

tl;dr:   Aim?  More like 'lame', right?!

 

Let the pillorying begin!

 

It's a damage boost also, albeit lower than Build-Up. What I personally do is put the Gaussian in there to make it up for that. BU is strong on its own and Aim needs the help.

 

Having the Gaussian in Tactics is an option as well, but, IMO, it firing randomly is better for ATs without nukes. My Tanker for example is all a constant stream of damage. But a Blaster will have their T9 and that's how they will want to initiate the fight.

 

Back when I did my stint as a Blaster I slid into the strategy of using BU + Nuke for one spawn and then run to the next and use Aim + all the AoEs the Build had. And at some point found it was better to use nuke + AoEs, and the next group my nuke would be down but I would make up for it by BU + Aim + regular AoEs.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Sovera

[Clave Dark 5]

I base my love of Tactics + Gaussian's proc for the fact it has a chance to fire for everyone your Tactics is buffing, which includes mastermind pets, etc. (Unless someone's proven that not to be true?  Pretty sure not, but I can be wrong) When you're in a league, that ain't nothing, and I love MSR, ha ha. 

 

Have to admit I hadn't thought about the use of some extra accuracy when you're gonna blow a huge AoE off in everyone's faces though, that's a fair point.  I suppose I could check a build for another form of BU or something before skipping.

 

And it's funny, I think every build always takes Leadership but many seem to skip travel powers all together now (which is fine, Ninja Run+Sprint with an occasional jet pack can do just fine, but it does get old after a bit).

[Clave Dark 5]

3 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Having the Gaussian in Tactics is an option as well, but, IMO, it firing randomly is better for ATs without nukes.

 

You're the second person (of two, ha ha) to mention "randomly", so does it like fire all the time with Aim?

 

I didn't know it also boosted damage any; I clicked on one randomly in the wiki list of powers that have Aim in their sets, and didn't see that.  I might have been skimming, or the wiki could be incomplete there.

[Carnifax]

I went and checked my Blasters. My Water/Temporal they get weird versions of Aim / Build-up which you really want (Waters Tidal Forces as the pseudo-Aim is especially important). So no question of taking Tactics here, Tidal is way more useful. 

 

My Dark / TA I took aim as my level 49 power (with Stealth at 47). So they could go the Tactics route instead. The Gaussians is in Upshot anyway. I dunno here, could go either way. I do like the Uber-Blackstar nukes though. 

 

My Ice / Fire I'm not sure what I was doing since I slotted the Gaussians set into Aim rather than Build Up. I was also taking Maneuvers anyway so here you could be right. Tactics may give me a more consistent experience over Aim. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Carnifax

[Carnifax]

5 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

You're the second person (of two, ha ha) to mention "randomly", so does it like fire all the time with Aim?

 

I didn't know it also boosted damage any; I clicked on one randomly in the wiki list of powers that have Aim in their sets, and didn't see that.  I might have been skimming, or the wiki could be incomplete there.

Assuming you have aim slotted for 75% recharge at most then the Proc chance is maxxed out at 90%. So yes, pretty much as "all the time" as you can. Additional slotted recharge over that would cause it to start dropping. 

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I base my love of Tactics + Gaussian's proc for the fact it has a chance to fire for everyone your Tactics is buffing, which includes mastermind pets, etc. (Unless someone's proven that not to be true?  Pretty sure not, but I can be wrong) When you're in a league, that ain't nothing, and I love MSR, ha ha. 

 

Have to admit I hadn't thought about the use of some extra accuracy when you're gonna blow a huge AoE off in everyone's faces though, that's a fair point.  I suppose I could check a build for another form of BU or something before skipping.

 

And it's funny, I think every build always takes Leadership but many seem to skip travel powers all together now (which is fine, Ninja Run+Sprint with an occasional jet pack can do just fine, but it does get old after a bit).

 

5 minutes ago, Sovera said:

It's a damage boost also, albeit lower than Build-Up.

 

- Build-up is 100% damage boost with 20% ToHit.

- Aim is 62% damage boost with 50% ToHit. Being a lower damage boost I like the gaussian there so clicking it still feels impactful.

 

So yeah, always use Aim. The extra accuracy isn't bad, but, if you're not building to have 90+% chance to hit natively you're not doing right. Part of the reason why Tactics is seldomly taken since 95% to hit +3 (since it's where the incarnate shift leaves us) is not super difficult to do and more is not helping much other than niche cases.

 

The Gaussian in Tactics is a valid option though, but it will fire at random. It can fire during your walk to the spawn, it may fire after your nuke, it may fire during a lull in combat (and it only lasts 5 seconds). Considering how Tactics is usually not a worthy pick (other than for niche reasons not realated to the actual ToHit) and how Blasters are tied to the initial burst to annihilate a spawn to reduce incoming damage (ence my earlier strategy of nuke + AoEs for one group and then BU + Aim + AoEs for the second group.

[Clave Dark 5]

3 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Assuming you have aim slotted for 75% recharge at most then the Proc chance is maxxed out at 90%. So yes, pretty much as "all the time" as you can. Additional slotted recharge over that would cause it to start dropping. 

Wait what?  I can't quote math or even throw links at you, but that does not jibe with my understanding of proc usage at all.  But not being an expert I can't say it is wrong. 

 

As I understand it, procs have their whatever PPM rate is, and the more recharge you load up a single power with (not global recharge, which doesn't affect this), the less it's likely to fire, because  the PPM formula takes recharge into consideration.

[Clave Dark 5]

6 minutes ago, Sovera said:

- Aim is 62% damage boost with 50% ToHit.

 

Part of the reason why Tactics is seldomly taken since 95% to hit +3 (since it's where the incarnate shift leaves us) is not super difficult to do and more is not helping much other than niche cases.

Huh, the description on the wiki says Aim only "Slightly increases damage."  I don't think of 62% as slightly at all, no.

 

And I see Tactics taken all the time.  Is not taking it maybe a Blaster thing, are you looking at this from there?  I'm coming more at this from Corruptors and Controllers side of things, I don't do much with Blasters.

[Sovera]

9 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Wait what?  I can't quote math or even throw links at you, but that does not jibe with my understanding of proc usage at all.  But not being an expert I can't say it is wrong. 

 

As I understand it, procs have their whatever PPM rate is, and the more recharge you load up a single power with (not global recharge, which doesn't affect this), the less it's likely to fire, because  the PPM formula takes recharge into consideration.

Yes, but the longer the recharge a power has the more likely the chance of a proc has of going off. And Aim/Build-up have a whooping 90 second recharge that pushes the envelope regarding this. So much indeed that 90% being the capped chance for a proc to go off won't be changed even if we add recharge to it until at least 75%. I still go 95% recharge personally as if I recall correctly it only lowers the chance of going off to... 87%? Please do not quote me.

 

5 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Huh, the description on the wiki says Aim only "Slightly increases damage."  I don't think of 62% as slightly at all, no.

 

And I see Tactics taken all the time.  Is not taking it maybe a Blaster thing, are you looking at this from there?  I'm coming more at this from Corruptors and Controllers side of things, I don't do much with Blasters.

When in doubt about these things click the power and choose Info and details and you'll see the nitty gritty of it. In the grand scheme of things (400% ish or something damage cap) 62% isn't tremendous, but a lot of old CoH lingo was deceptive with attacks who did 'moderate' and 'minor' damage until we finally got actual numbers.

 

As for Tactics, sure, people do what they wish to do. Perhaps they are explicitly building so that Tactics makes them reach the hit chance cap.... Or more likely they just take it because they want to help the team, which is a valid outlook as well.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Sovera

[Carnifax]

15 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Wait what?  I can't quote math or even throw links at you, but that does not jibe with my understanding of proc usage at all.  But not being an expert I can't say it is wrong. 

 

As I understand it, procs have their whatever PPM rate is, and the more recharge you load up a single power with (not global recharge, which doesn't affect this), the less it's likely to fire, because  the PPM formula takes recharge into consideration.

Maybe 66-70%. The recharge "normally" is 90 seconds. So even if you drop that with 70% recharge it's still 52.something seconds. So a 1 PPM proc at that should be proccing 88% of the time as far as I understand it. Since the Proc cap is 90% anyway you aren't losing anything. 

 

((90 / 1.70) / 60 * 1 * 100) where 1.70 is your total slotted recharge (100% + 70% as a decimal), 1 is the PPM and 100 is just to convert it back to a percent. (I didn't include Cast Time cos I'm not Bopper 🙂 )

Edited August 19, 2020 by Carnifax

[Bopper]

As long as the modified recharge time plus the cast time is equal to 54s or greater, you will retain a 90% chance to fire. Lets assume it's a 1s cast time, that means the modified recharge time can go as low as 53s. 

 

90/53 = 1.698

 

So you can slot 69.8% recharge and keep 90% probability to proc.

 

 

EDIT

I see the cast time is 1.17s. That translates to 70.35% allowed recharge

Edited August 19, 2020 by Bopper

[Clave Dark 5]

10 minutes ago, Bopper said:

As long as the modified recharge time plus the cast time is equal to 54s or greater, you will retain a 90% chance to fire.

 

I guess I should have read those PPM things more closely, I didn't think any proc anywhere got a 90% chance to fire.

 

And yes, Sovera, clicking the powers in the game works best - except I;m at work and can't get into the game right now (me and my terrible life choices!).  So I only have the Wikis to go by.  Maybe our attempts to update the wikis should look into this sort of thing.

[Gulbasaur]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Having the Gaussian in Tactics is an option as well, but, IMO, it firing randomly is better for ATs without nukes. My Tanker for example is all a constant stream of damage. But a Blaster will have their T9 and that's how they will want to initiate the fight.

I completely agree with this - the only time I put it into Build Up is on a stalker because of the beautiful ATO synergy. On anything else, putting the proc in Tactics gives you very good returns - on a full team it has about a 20% uptime and that increases when you've got pets involved, making it a nice little damage bonus. 

 

Then again, Tactics' usefulness varies wildly between ATs. On a defender or a VEAT, it's very decent. On a blaster, it's fairly minor. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[Carnifax]

30 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I guess I should have read those PPM things more closely, I didn't think any proc anywhere got a 90% chance to fire.

It's one reason people take the Epic holds loaded up with procs a lot of the time, especially on lower damage ATs. Those holds have slow base recharge (32 seconds usually) so loading them with 2.5 and 3 ppm damage procs means they go off 90% of the time anyway. My Mace/Rad Brute does similar with Ground Zero to give me a proc-fuelled mini-nuke (with a 32 target cap). Global recharge + Hasten takes care of recharging the bugger and Fury is fuelling the damage as well so my slotting is 1 Acc and 5 procs  

 

So for any low base damage AT with longer recharging powers they can be useful. Apparently this is being looked at (pre-PPM it was auras which were proc monsters, now it tends to be these slower recharging direct powers). 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Carnifax

[macskull]

14 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

I completely agree with this - the only time I put it into Build Up is on a stalker because of the beautiful ATO synergy. On anything else, putting the proc in Tactics gives you very good returns - on a full team it has about a 20% uptime and that increases when you've got pets involved, making it a nice little damage bonus. 

 

Then again, Tactics' usefulness varies wildly between ATs. On a defender or a VEAT, it's very decent. On a blaster, it's fairly minor. 

If I don't have an Aim or Build Up power I might stick it in Tactics, but generally I want to control when I'm getting that extra damage instead of it happening randomly. I'm a fan of consistency.

[DreadShinobi]

2 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Might one even, gasp, skip Aim?

I play a number of sonic blasting defenders that all skip aim, including my storm/sonic, thermal/sonic, sonic/sonic, and kin/sonic. As acting as a force multiplier for teams is their main purpose, and that sonic damage itself isn't all that, and damage buffs don't affect proc damage, aim becomes a very low priority power pick. I would never skip Aim on a blaster, corruptor (I don't play sonic blast on corrs, but that would have similar reasoning for an aim skip as per defenders), or sentinel (If I ever decide to play one). Kinetics defenders or corruptors can also get by without aim if playing the character solely post-IOs and post-fulcrum shift.

Edited August 19, 2020 by DreadShinobi

[Wavicle]

The point of Aim is to get you through Force Fields and Dark debuffs, etc. 

[Clave Dark 5]

I no longer have the link, but the guy who was testing it was something I clipped out and put into my notes.  I may have edited it for length a tad, but the player said

 

This thing won't.  Stop.  Proccing.  Seeing a proc rate of 2-2.5 PPM.  Seems to check Gaussian once per 10 seconds per target you are buffing.  Not work for [your mastermind's] pets, but this is still huge, especially if on a full team, league with other MMs with pets you’re buffing too.

 

That doesn't sound too awful or too random. I mean, maybe not quite as on-demand as "I click a button" either I guess. Maybe I read too much into that without understanding how reliably it would proc elsewhere.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Clave Dark 5
spelling

[Clave Dark 5]

21 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The point of Aim is to get you through Force Fields and Dark debuffs, etc. 

Yeah, I think I can recall clicking it once or twice for just those reasons, knowing that "whoa, this is a time I actually could use a boost."

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Yeah, I think I can recall clicking it once or twice for just those reasons, knowing that "whoa, this is a time I actually could use a boost."

There’s a reason why Melee hate Circle of Thorns and Range couldn’t care less.

[Carnifax]

1 hour ago, DreadShinobi said:

I play a number of sonic blasting defenders that all skip aim, including my storm/sonic, thermal/sonic, sonic/sonic, and kin/sonic. As acting as a force multiplier for teams is their main purpose, and that sonic damage itself isn't all that, and damage buffs don't affect proc damage, aim becomes a very low priority power pick. I would never skip Aim on a blaster, corruptor (I don't play sonic blast on corrs, but that would have similar reasoning for an aim skip as per defenders), or sentinel (If I ever decide to play one). Kinetics defenders or corruptors can also get by without aim if playing the character solely post-IOs and post-fulcrum shift.

I'm the opposite. Because -Resist adds as a multiplier to my damage buffs I'd never drop Gaussianed Amplify from my Time/Sonic for maxxed out Wailing on -resist debuffed spawns. It's a one-slot power I take at 47 but it makes a big difference to my nuke (which, because I'm Time is getting fired off every 37 seconds).

[Nemu]

I'd put the build up proc in aim and then laugh at PPs when they MoG or elude. Same with Veng boosted nemesis, when no one else can hit them, you can.

[Clave Dark 5]

3 minutes ago, Nemu said:

I'd put the build up proc in aim and then laugh at PPs when they MoG or elude. Same with Veng boosted nemesis, when no one else can hit them, you can.

That right there is so far the best argument I've heard.  I can really punch through MoG with Aim?  I'm using it.