NeRF AoE !!

[Leogunner]

Even though my suggestion was likely seen as more a comical suggestion, I'll make a caveat on my previous post:

 

How about introducing a new rank into the mix?  You could call them anything, really...Knights, Sergeants, Minions(P)...but it would be a rank between minions and Lts.

 

They are very similar to minions in damage and mez resist but with the HP of an Lt...the difference is, they have the unique ability to count as more targets.  For a Minion(P+), they are common among minions and count as 3 targets but of course, only take damage as 1 and with the HP of an Lt, they aren't as easily disposed of with a standard AoE.  You can even have Minion(P++) and Minion(P+++) counting as 4 and 5 targets and as the difficulty increases, so does the frequency of these replacing your standard minions.

 

If the Minion(P+++) thing is a bit weak, you could just amend the (P) (fyi, P is supposed to stand for Promotable), to all ranks, just giving them the ability to count as 3 targets (so you'd have Minion(P), Lieutenant(P), Boss(P) and Elite Boss(P)) that replace standard Minions, Lts, Bosses and EBs the higher you scale the level.

[Troo]

It is an interesting idea. (just trying to keep it a light thread rather than too serious, but not a place where good ideas go to die. threading the needle)

 

Maybe as difficulty increased max number of targets for AoE would decrease.. could something like this be a simpler version of the same concept? (just spitballing)

 

____ _ ____ _ ____ _ ____ _ ____ _ ____

 

I liked the idea of large minions and tiny bosses for a faction. Kinda flip-flopped Shivans with some tiny bosses.

(side note: i used to have a re-occurring effect in dreams where, regardless of the dream, all the the people grew or expanded filling the space)

 

 

 

[Leogunner]

8 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

(side note: i used to have a re-occurring effect in dreams where, regardless of the dream, all the the people grew or expanded filling the space)

 

 

I kind of had a reverse of that where things that seemed normal sized would be ultra small when close to me and locations/barriers in the space around me would appear to be further away.  I'd sometimes feel like I was falling as things around me would seem to get further away.

[Troo]

dreams..weird stuff.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

uhhh "ducks behind a shield" how about increasing cast times on aoe powers and reducing them on single target skills? "Runs"

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

My fave example of balance with AOEs will always be good old school D&D at the table top. full friendly fire, demanding those with AOEs like a classic fireball use it with care rather then impunity. Some of my fave turn based tactical rpgs are very unforgiving in that aspect as well. Even DDO has a hand full of spells that do effect allies as negatively as enemies to keep something of that spirit of challenge.

 

The fact is its the only real way to balance aoe dmg and not nerf it to the point of why bother. We would basically need it to be full on open world pvp, where you can hurt ally as easily as enemy, and need to use ones powers far more wisely. But I doubt anything close to that could ever work in coh, the playerbase likely could never adapt to only nuke when alone

[Troo]

interesting

[ABlueThingy]

On 9/24/2020 at 1:56 PM, Leogunner said:

-snip-

This is an interesting idea! 

 

There's a few ways you could do it too.  Like having a "Goon" class that just does poor attacks with decent health and spawns multiple invisible invincible pets that follow him perfectly so they eat up AoE slots.

 

Or a boss or LT class with high AoE def and no range/st def that, when aggroed uses a leadership type power that spawns the same kind of invisible pets on all the nearby enemies so unless he's taken out first you end up with only 4 or 5 actually viable targets

 

 

 

[summers]

It's a very creative idea! I would point out though that some judgements hit up to 40 targets so that's not going to help the Judgement spam. Otherwise I think it's an intriguing thought!

[Lockpick]

On 9/23/2020 at 10:20 AM, Dragon Crush said:

Well, the P2W vendor has temp powers to make things easier, how about some for challenge mode powers so people who want everything to suck can have their fun, while the rest of us don't have to suffer? Can add temp auto powers to cut your damage by 20/50/75%, ditto for range, end recovery, to-hit, recharge et cetera, purchased an hour at a time and stacking for 8 hours.

This is not really a bad idea.  The reality though is the players saying the game is to easy are not interested in mechanics to make it harder at the character level.  There are tons of ways to make content more challenging as it is. 

 

Nope, these players are more interested in tearing everyone down, so there is more equity.  There is something else like that happening in the US currently.  I can't quite think of it right now...

[RageusQuitus2]

On 9/23/2020 at 10:20 AM, Dragon Crush said:

Well, the P2W vendor has temp powers to make things easier, how about some for challenge mode powers so people who want everything to suck can have their fun, while the rest of us don't have to suffer? Can add temp auto powers to cut your damage by 20/50/75%, ditto for range, end recovery, to-hit, recharge et cetera, purchased an hour at a time and stacking for 8 hours.

This please.  Such a great idea allowing nerfs to be targeted towards the players that want them.  Also allowing the community to see how popular said nerfs would be in the wild (meaning how many people are using them).  Id also recommend making them very expensive since some of the same players calling for nerfs seem really concerned with infamy sinks.  Kill two birds with one stone!

[ScarySai]

On 9/21/2020 at 4:29 PM, Troo said:

Is the current state of AoE the cause of some AT's roles being diminished?

 

Are AoE's too strong?

 

Should AoE recharge be slowed down? Or sped up?

 

Are some areas too large?

 

Cheers

No, no, depends and no.

[Troo]

Any thoughts on:

Maybe as difficulty is increased max number of targets for AoE could decrease.

[Troo]

Looks like GoOD NEwS for AoE fans... more

[Epoch Paradox]

For everyone who says the game is too easy, I have some solutions for you. Don't use any enhancements beyond maybe the occasional TO. Fight with no toggles/shields. Don't use inspirations. Craft no incarnate powers. Solo Hamidon raid. If you need more ideas, feel free to hit me up anytime. I'm sure you can be accommodated if you're still feeling too uber. If you have a problem with others being just too super for your taste, perhaps we could have a dedicated server for you and maybe call it WoW or some such thing. Maybe you just shouldn't play super-hero games. Maybe the SIMS is more your speed. There's a game where you literally just mow the lawn... Head to their forums and tell the devs the blades are too sharp and the grass can't fight back well enough.

[Troo]

I take it @Epoch Paradox, not a fan of the "Maybe as difficulty is increased max number of targets for AoE could decrease." idea?

[Epoch Paradox]

6 hours ago, Troo said:

I take it @Epoch Paradox, not a fan of the "Maybe as difficulty is increased max number of targets for AoE could decrease." idea?

Nope.

[Naraka]

I think it's funny that posters suggesting self nerfs are here patting each other on the backs (like @Dragon Crush, @Lockpick, @RageusQuitus2, and @Epoch Paradox) like they came up with a new original idea but fail to see the overall perspective:

 

We already have the ability to nerf ourselves so that's not new. If people are talking and discussing actually new ideas instead of self nerfs, it might be because they DON'T enjoy self nerfs and might want something else to add variety to the combat. If you opposed that notion, just say "I don't want new stuff" and save yourselves the effort of posting.

 

EDIT: the ironic part is, those that are like looking out for the overall bottom line in difficult get completely washed out when discussing changes than over buff stuff that makes the game even easier. And the decrying of needed nerfs really touches on that irony too.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Naraka

[RageusQuitus2]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

I think it's funny that posters suggesting self nerfs are here patting each other on the backs (like @Dragon Crush, @Lockpick, @RageusQuitus2, and @Epoch Paradox) like they came up with a new original idea but fail to see the overall perspective:

 

We already have the ability to nerf ourselves so that's not new. If people are talking and discussing actually new ideas instead of self nerfs, it might be because they DON'T enjoy self nerfs and might want something else to add variety to the combat. If you opposed that notion, just say "I don't want new stuff" and save yourselves the effort of posting.

 

EDIT: the ironic part is, those that are like looking out for the overall bottom line in difficult get completely washed out when discussing changes than over buff stuff that makes the game even easier. And the decrying of needed nerfs really touches on that irony too.

I cant possibly pat myself on the back with my T rex arms and fingers (another reason I dont like nerfs its hard enough for me to use a keyboard with my curled up talons for fingers).  Good try though.  And maybe next time dont shame people with short arms and disfigured fingers.

[Naraka]

30 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

I cant possibly pat myself on the back with my T rex arms and fingers (another reason I dont like nerfs its hard enough for me to use a keyboard with my curled up talons for fingers).  Good try though.  And maybe next time dont shame people with short arms and disfigured fingers.

I didn't say pat yourself, I said pat each other.

[Troo]

[removed]

Edited April 17, 2021 by Troo

[Lockpick]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

I think it's funny that posters suggesting self nerfs are here patting each other on the backs (like @Dragon Crush, @Lockpick, @RageusQuitus2, and @Epoch Paradox) like they came up with a new original idea but fail to see the overall perspective:

 

We already have the ability to nerf ourselves so that's not new. If people are talking and discussing actually new ideas instead of self nerfs, it might be because they DON'T enjoy self nerfs and might want something else to add variety to the combat. If you opposed that notion, just say "I don't want new stuff" and save yourselves the effort of posting.

 

EDIT: the ironic part is, those that are like looking out for the overall bottom line in difficult get completely washed out when discussing changes than over buff stuff that makes the game even easier. And the decrying of needed nerfs really touches on that irony too.

The fact that you started your post off by calling people out specifically by name and demeaning their contributions negatively impacts any points you may try to make. 

 

The challenge I have is that people min/max their builds with IO sets and incarnates and then complain the game is to easy.  They then advocate to the HC team to make the entire game harder for everyone, including those that do not have min/max builds, do not have incarnates, and want a more casual friendly game.  These people refuse to own their own play experience to get the challenge they want for themselves.  This doesn't require self-nerfs.  You can create hard mode content.  You can team up with like minded people and all of you can create hard mode content.  If you and 9 other like minded people created hard mode AE story arc content every 2 months at the end of the year you would have 60 hard mode story arcs that would benefit the entire community.

 

My suggestions have always been for players to own their own play experience and that can take multiple forms:

• Use the existing mechanics to make current content harder
  • Notoriety
  • Non min/max builds
  • Challenges and challenge functions
• Create harder content via AE
• Advocate for the HC team to make player created content more accessible and rationalize rewards across all content including player created content

 

 

[Naraka]

1 minute ago, Lockpick said:

The fact that you started your post off by calling people out specifically by name and demeaning their contributions negatively impacts any points you may try to make. 

 

Is it demeaning because it's true?

 

1 minute ago, Lockpick said:

The challenge I have is that people min/max their builds with IO sets and incarnates and then complain the game is to easy.  They then advocate to the HC team to make the entire game harder for everyone, including those that do not have min/max builds, do not have incarnates, and want a more casual friendly game.  These people refuse to own their own play experience to get the challenge they want for themselves.  

 

Well I'm not one of those people. In fact, I tend to play ATs I don't have much experience with and aim to use the majority (if not all) of their primary/secondary/chosen pools specifically to gain insight on less used combos/powers. Minimal min/maxing, mostly solo and small teams, no purples/incarnate because I'm mostly playing alts and mid level locked characters.

 

The thing is, if I get bored, I just stop playing. It's not so much about challenge, but rather variety. . .

 

That all aside, I decided to come into the thread and criticise your posts. So what? It really supports my stance that you lack perspective because it's not particularly controversial to discuss about buffing a set that might not be meta... But apparently there is a problem discussing other issues in the game like the prevalence and abundance of AoE? So we have to devise extra ways ourselves to keep variation in combat ultimately but when buffs come down the line we also have to change course for that as well... But don't you dare touch other player's settings, they should be able to keep their arbitrary settings at the tippy top. Mmhm.

9 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 9/21/2020 at 4:49 PM, Vanden said:

Actually, if you look at the damage formulas, AoE attacks suck. Powers that follow the rules, like Explosive Blast, or Whirling Hands, players hate them. The best AoE attacks all break the rules.

Makes one wonder what everything would feel like if ALL powers were set back to the original equations and then adjusted for arcanatime.

[Lockpick]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

Is it demeaning because it's true?

I don't agree it is true.  I haven't advocated for self nerfs and have explained my position.  My position is simple: I am advocating for more player choices and for players to own their own play experience.

 

I certainly haven't patted anyone on the back.  I may agree with some posters some of the time and disagree other times.

 

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

That all aside, I decided to come into the thread and criticise your posts. So what? It really supports my stance that you lack perspective because it's not particularly controversial to discuss about buffing a set that might not be meta... But apparently there is a problem discussing other issues in the game like the prevalence and abundance of AoE? So we have to devise extra ways ourselves to keep variation in combat ultimately but when buffs come down the line we also have to change course for that as well

 

I'm trying to understand your point in regards to this thread and am having a hard time.  No one is stopping you from discussing the meta.  Go ahead and have fun discussing it.  Feel free to discuss the nature of AoE in the game.  No one is stopping you.

 

I also don't advocate for power set re-balancing, so I am not sure what to make of you comment about buffs.  I think power set adjustments should be done very rarely because they impact the current players playing the game.  IMO, balancing should only be done in situations where there is clear and substantial imbalance.  I am pretty much against all the power set adjustments in the new issue because I do not think they are warranted.

 

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

But don't you dare touch other player's settings, they should be able to keep their arbitrary settings at the tippy top. Mmhm.

 

I haven't advocated for keeping the settings at the top.  I have no idea what you are talking about.  I have advocated for the HC team to provide more settings to give more players choice because I think choice and owning your own player experience are critical, especially with a small player base and HC team.  The current settings are fine for me since I generally run on the default settings except when I want to do something outside my norm.