Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Indystruck]

41 minutes ago, skoryy said:

I get the notion that this makes the set more gimmicky, but press button -> receive bonus is about as minimally gimmicky as you can get.

 

Signed, an occasional FFXIV DNC 😵

 

Let me just break out my spreadsheet to show you my Machinist rotation.

 

[kenlon]

49 minutes ago, Troo said:

I gave Energy Assault a try on three characters, I did not like it, it was definitely not Energy Melee. It is something else.

Have you actually *tried* new energy melee? 

 

Also, calling it a nerf that they gave back the short ET animation is certainly an . . .interesting take.

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by kenlon

[Troo]

2 minutes ago, kenlon said:

Have you actually *tried* new energy melee? 

Yes.

I also pointed out many of the changes were not listed. Which turns out those changes aren't supposed to be there.

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Troo

[Safehouse]

8 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

 

Let me just break out my spreadsheet to show you my Machinist rotation.

 

I mean, gee, at least it ain't the monk rotation. Talk about dancing!

[Infinitum]

18 minutes ago, Troo said:

Yeah that will be the sticking point. Because from my vantage it is not true.

 

Part Time does not equal Full Time

Being required to take a power to get it does not equal pre-nerf function.

At some lower levels it is not going to be available where it was before.

 

The benefits people are seeing are a result of the reduced animation times. Those could be had without the combo mechanic.

 

I am glad folks are getting to see why we loved the old Energy Transfer and how big of a difference that change was. Animation times can make a big difference in the feel of the set.

and they are had without it, ET if it had no focus applied had its recharge reduced, does all energy dmg now, and also cost no endurance.

 

TF had its animation shortened.

 

EP got a dmg buff

 

WH got a dmg buff

 

we got an additional AOE in PC

 

and all that is before you throw a mechanic in the mix, which is again, simply activating TF which is a solidly good power now that it had its animation time reduced.

 

You keep saying part time, but the fact is with the reduced recharge its up a lot more than it was Pre Nerf - ET.  But its so simple its pretty darn close to ET being full time fast.

 

Here are some more numbers for ya.

 

Invul/EM  4:07 Beta    
Invul/EM  6:03 Live    

Fire/EM     2:53 Beta   
Fire/EM     3:49 Live    

EM/EA SC  2:32 Beta    
EM/Ni SC  2:13 Beta    
EM/EA ST  1:11 Beta   
EM/EA ST  3:14 Live

 

Even if I didnt apply focus i would have improved my numbers from live because of the ET change, the TF change, and the EP change.

 

There is literally no way you can say this isnt an improvement over pre nerf or live - it just isnt what you wanted, and you are allowed to not like it. 

 

But its not accurate say they arent positive or good changes.

[kenlon]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

But its not accurate say they arent positive or good changes.

The only thing that would make it a positive change for him is ET goes back to the old animation 100% of the time, regardless of what happens to the rest of the set. Arguing with him is pointless, I'm afraid. Fortunately, one curmudgeon isn't going to be enough to make the devs roll this back.

Edited October 25, 2020 by kenlon

[ForeverLaxx]

My original post on the discussion thread was literally just "revert the nerf to ET" and you guys still couldn't resist stuffing it with a gimmick and making the "unnerfed ET" conditional upon utilizing the gimmick? What's the deal with this gimmick obsession, anyway? We used to have sets that appealed to players who liked simplicity and straightforwardness and we had sets that appealed to the more calculated or strategic player via building stacks/combos... why are we changing old sets that had simplistic appeal as part of their reason to exist into something else?

 

The people that wanted the set to be good again want the set to at least be close to how it used to be, not to be "updated" to this modern obsession with mini-games with choices forced upon you to even become functional. While I personally would never skip Total Focus because I like the animation due to being an old Energy/Energy Blaster main, forcing people to pick this power and lead with it in order for Energy Transfer to not stink is not what many of us wanted. Tying that same mechanic to the ability to Stun a boss is also really lame; why can't I Stun a boss while also getting hilarious burst damage on it? Why do I have to pick when I shouldn't? It's not like EM is built to do anything else.

 

I can't say I'm a fan of the cone introduction, either. This is another change towards homogenization of powersets which I will never support. Tying it to the gimmick for MOAR AoE is also something that will probably never be used. By the time TF finishes animating, half the spawn is dead already and you're smacking the boss as EM anyhow so who cares about the chaff that's there to make your team feel useful? I don't mind an update/overhaul for Stun but I wish it was actually still Stun in function rather than something completely different.

 

We just wanted Pizza, and instead you gave us your take on pizza made from a Chinese slaw topped with creme fraiche.

[Saikochoro]

I did some more testing last night on a another scrapper build. I also transferred over my shield/EM tank and tried it out. 
 

I honestly cannot say enough good things about the updated energy melee. I like it better than pre-nerf days. It feels so good to play now, but not overpowered. I think the devs found a good balance point in pretty much all regards. 
 

I haven’t tried the new EM on stalker yet, but that is my privilege to do so today. I’m excited for it. 
 

@Jimmy and the dev team: thank you so much for these absolutely fantastic changes. I hope they all make it through as is. It is better than I hoped for and giving EM to scrappers was a very pleasant surprise. 

[Jimmy]

4 minutes ago, Saikochoro said:

@Jimmy and the dev team: thank you so much for these absolutely fantastic changes. I hope they all make it through as is. It is better than I hoped for and giving EM to scrappers was a very pleasant surprise. 

It was all @Captain Powerhouse, and yes I agree it is excellent. Can't wait to roll an EM Scrapper.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Saikochoro said:

I haven’t tried the new EM on stalker yet, but that is my privilege to do so today. I’m excited for it. 

Just remember this for optimal attack rotations.

 

ATO hide in AS

ATO BU in EP

 

AS - TF - FET - EP - AS - EP - FET - EP.  Repeat

Or

AS - TF - PC - EP - AS - EP - PC - EP. Repeat.

 

As long as hasten is up these are devestating.

[Saikochoro]

Just now, Jimmy said:

It was all @Captain Powerhouse, and yes I agree it is excellent. Can't wait to roll an EM Scrapper.

Thank you @Captain Powerhouse.  Top notch changes!

[PeregrineFalcon]

So I'll admit that I was almost as unhappy about the change to EM as Troo is. Then I logged on to the test server and tried it.

 

Yes, as someone said earlier in the thread "It's as minimally gimmicky as possible." Also this "gimmick" gives EM some flexibility. 1) Go for fast/high damage ET, 2) Go for a debuff in Bonesmasher, or 3) Go for more AoE with Power Crash. I won't be using Power Crash, but I can see where some people would like it. And at least Stun did get a buff of sorts.

 

And I LOVE that ET has its old animation back. And I LOVE TF's sped-up animation.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I won't be using Power Crash

Power crash brings versatility to stalkers, and Scrappers, on tanks its another solid AOE under focus.

 

I'm on the fence as to whether or not I need it on my tanks.

[Super Atom]

17 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

My original post on the discussion thread was literally just "revert the nerf to ET" and you guys still couldn't resist stuffing it with a gimmick and making the "unnerfed ET" conditional upon utilizing the gimmick? What's the deal with this gimmick obsession, anyway? We used to have sets that appealed to players who liked simplicity and straightforwardness and we had sets that appealed to the more calculated or strategic player via building stacks/combos... why are we changing old sets that had simplistic appeal as part of their reason to exist into something else?

 

The people that wanted the set to be good again want the set to at least be close to how it used to be, not to be "updated" to this modern obsession with mini-games with choices forced upon you to even become functional. While I personally would never skip Total Focus because I like the animation due to being an old Energy/Energy Blaster main, forcing people to pick this power and lead with it in order for Energy Transfer to not stink is not what many of us wanted. Tying that same mechanic to the ability to Stun a boss is also really lame; why can't I Stun a boss while also getting hilarious burst damage on it? Why do I have to pick when I shouldn't? It's not like EM is built to do anything else.

 

I can't say I'm a fan of the cone introduction, either. This is another change towards homogenization of powersets which I will never support. Tying it to the gimmick for MOAR AoE is also something that will probably never be used. By the time TF finishes animating, half the spawn is dead already and you're smacking the boss as EM anyhow so who cares about the chaff that's there to make your team feel useful? I don't mind an update/overhaul for Stun but I wish it was actually still Stun in function rather than something completely different.

 

We just wanted Pizza, and instead you gave us your take on pizza made from a Chinese slaw topped with creme fraiche.

Man, idk how the exaggeration of EF being complex is spreading but it's a no go.

 

I'm a person who wants the set to be good again and what i wanted as an overall improvement not just revert ET because that doesn't solve the problems the set had and implying otherwise shows a basic lack of understanding for what the problems even were with Energy Melee. I don't like when people use imaginary "we" or "a lot of people" to strengthen their argument, people can and will speak for themselves.

 

Things Energy Melee needed to be viable in Modern City of Heroes, not a city of heroes that does not exist anymore like the days of Pre-nerf EM.

 

- More Multi-target damage, without being too high to retain set identity of ST focus

- Faster Animations

- A general damage buff to some weaker early tier powers

 

I think the devs achieved all of this quite well while also giving people the chance to have old ET for insane amounts of ST output, People are gonna complain ET isn't instant 100% of the time, but so far, every time I've used ET it's been instant 100% of the time 😉  It's ok not to like mechanics though, thats a personal flavor choice and nobody can tell you that you can't not like it.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Super Atom

[Jimmy]

On 10/24/2020 at 1:33 PM, Jimmy said:

Power Changes

•  Energy Punch
  • Recharge increased from 4s to 5s
  • End cost increased from 5.2 to 6.032
  • Damage increased from scale 1 to scale 1.16
•  Power Crash (Replaces Stun)
  • Stalkers only:
    • This power has a 18s recharge (instead of a 9s recharge for other ATs), with proportional damage and endurance cost increases per the standard damage formulas
    • As Stalkers do not have Whirling Hands, they rely entirely on Power Crash for AoE damage
•  Whirling Hands
  •  Damage increased from scale 1 to scale 1.1819 (it was slightly below what the damage formula dictated)

Updated the patch notes with these missing changes.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Power crash brings versatility to stalkers, and Scrappers, on tanks its another solid AOE under focus.

 

I'm on the fence as to whether or not I need it on my tanks.

Yeah, mine is an Invuln/EM Tank. My main from before The Snap. A low-damage cone stun just doesn't seem helpful.

 

Now for an EM Scrapper I can see where stunning half of the mob while I beat on the other half would be a definite survival boost.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

People are gonna complain ET isn't instant 100% of the time, but so far, every time I've used ET it's been instant 100% of the time

Thats mainly because they lowered the recharge of it.  If it was on the old schedule it would be 100% of the time.

 

It got buffed significantly on the slow version.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Yeah, mine is an Invuln/EM Tank. My main from before The Snap. A low-damage cone stun just doesn't seem helpful.

 

Now for an EM Scrapper I can see where stunning half of the mob while I beat on the other half would be a definite survival boost.

Yep, that was my main also.

 

I could see situationally on a tanker where it would be useful, lol its hard to break what I'm used to on them though.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Yeah, mine is an Invuln/EM Tank. My main from before The Snap. A low-damage cone stun just doesn't seem helpful.

 

Now for an EM Scrapper I can see where stunning half of the mob while I beat on the other half would be a definite survival boost.

On my tank, between WH/PC/Judgement my AOE capabilities are pretty strong. Easily clear a mob and be on my way. I could see skipping it on tankers though, WH/Judgement is probably fine enough for the purposes of tanking. It's just a stat stick / quick damage output for me.

 

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Thats mainly because they lowered the recharge of it.  If it was on the old schedule it would be 100% of the time.

 

It got buffed significantly on the slow version.

This was more or less a joke about only using ET with EF 😛

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

On my tank, between WH/PC/Judgement my AOE capabilities are pretty strong. Easily clear a mob and be on my way. I could see skipping it on tankers though, WH/Judgement is probably fine enough for the purposes of tanking. It's just a stat stick / quick damage output for me.

Ahhh yeah its so tempting.  lol

[ForeverLaxx]

12 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Man, idk how the exaggeration of EF being complex is spreading but it's a no go.

The point that you seem to consistently miss is not that it's suddenly "complicated", but that it's another introduction of needless fluff to a set that never needed it and many oldschool EM players never wanted. The real kick to the nads is that you don't get to play the set how you want like you used to -- now you must play EM how the devs designed it to be played if you want to be anywhere close to optimal.

 

You also give up that damage to utilize an AoE that many of us didn't ask for because we didn't want the set to suffer due to homogenization (and your single target suffers for it, which was the fear).

 

No one is arguing that the set doesn't perform better than it used to. It's obvious the set is stronger on paper and in practice. Trouble is, it's not Energy Melee in feel anymore and that's where many of us have a problem.

Edited October 25, 2020 by ForeverLaxx

[ThunderCAP]

11 hours ago, Super Atom said:

I'm unsure whats happening with you, My EM is doing excellent in all areas, tanking/damage wise. The mechanic is 1st grade math level easy and has improved the flow, strengths, and general gameplay of EM in every possible way. Short of people just wanting old ET back in its entirety, this change actually addresses multiple issues EM had has a set. Something many sets will still need, however not every set will need a mechanic or should get a mechanic. It works for EM extremely well however.

 

Super Strength

Battle axe

Broadsword

Katana

War Mace

Electric Melee

Fire Melee

Ice Melee

Spines

Stone Melee

Martial Arts

Dark Melee(?)

Claws

 

We'll stick to just tanker sets to make it easy.

 

Meanwhile, "mechanic" sets.

Staff

Dual Blades
Radiation

Energy melee

Kinetic

Street Justice

Psi melee (kind of)

Savage melee.

 

Edit-  forgot dual blades, but so does everyone so its ok 😉

In your list there are:
Powers completely unplayable at the moment (Super Strength)
Powers that underperform so much that it cannot be ignored even by the most blinded role player (Kinetic, SS without rage, other)
Powers with evident bugs (invisible Katana, SS animation bugs I personally reported)

Powers with weapons (didn't I speak about those already? Of course you don't know what's happening with me if you don't put any effort to understand or even read at all)
Powers that force you into very very specific concepts (spines, claws, dark, ice, savage) and cannot be molded in different ones.

So let's say you're one of those... thousands... of players that played with Super Strength when the game was live  (did you read the list of peoples that still play that set for roleplay reasons, even in its ultra-underperforming and very disturbing actual state?) or want to actually make the most common concept on this world, a brainless puncher (the very majority of superheroes in comics), what set remains for you? Are you suggesting Spines ^^ ?
An hint: they just deleted Energy Melee from the equation.

 

I used all the other sets for much more then an year now and would like to return to my mains but with all the bugs and changes it's pretty impossible. There is Martial Arts (which is still a too narrow concept even if not like Spines or Claws etc, it forces you on kicking around, not punches, the alternate animation punches come far too late for a tank and the aoe is a tripping kick, not exactly good to substitute Super Strength right?), Electric Melee (good choice), Psionic Melee (just cause its pseudo-combo-mechanics is really ignorable and it is strong enough and bugless, yet it's difficult to not get forced into laser-swords by it), Energy Melee (it was just underperforming before... while now? Now it's a different set with the same name).
So in the end, yes, Electric Melee only. If you want to create the most common concept in the world there is... that.   By the way, since you seem to like to ignore any possible problem that's not specific number-balance I will enlighten you to another: Electric Melee still forces you to transform into a lightning (since that is the strongest power in that set can't be ignored), so you still need to mold your concept there.

Now let's check the big picture: The devs have got a superhero game in their hands, which in "live" could create various kind of Supermen, Namors, Heracles, Spidermen, Novas, Captain Marvels, Shazams, Silver Surfers, Cyborgs, Thors (should I keep going? I could write 70% of the DC and Marvel rooster by doing this) and now in the Homecoming server it's not able to do that anymore. All these characters/concepts could be made with Super Strength with the possibility to substitute it with Energy Melee, Electric Melee (Psionic Melee? Radiation Melee if you like combos). By "deleting" these sets (by either patches, or heavy visual bugs, or changing the basic mechanics) they force such players in a long search for unsatisfying alternatives, which is what I personally did for a couple of years now and am very close to the uninstall button (for the 2nd time actually).
In fact I didn't want to speak about the complete low-priority that's being given in important problems like NEW bugged animations (which I reported several times in the past year) which make several sets and pool powers unplayable for any person that want to see the actual fight animate in front of them and not just the numbers (it's a videogame, not a pen&paper's).

But no. Let's think about an attack doing 55 damage instead of 50 or let's transform the only real substitute for SS into a combo-cone set that was not.

Since I'm never the guy who just see problems and actually tries to help with them (actively reporting and contacting and suggesting) I will give you my solution to this entire problem:
1) Give more importance to roleplay, visual aspects, and old loves. The game is already full of animations you can re-use (for example, one of the best animations in the game is still locked into a single pool power that's mostly unusable, Spring Attack, and the game lacks dashes because of its old age, now all melee classes in new mmorpgs got dashes, you could use that animation in so many ways and to improve sets or pool-sets, and of course it's just one example)
2) When you have got pure fire to adjust, like Energy Melee or Super Strength, just balance the old ones and create new alternative sets where you're creative. New sets won't disturb anyone, they will be ignored if peoples don't like them.
Do not completely transform the old ones since you evidently cannot even start to imagine what role-play or animation issues you're going to face (I feel like the game is being adjusted by pvpers), just... BALANCE the old sets (no revolutions) and CREATE ALTERNATIVES by reusing old animations.
This way you can put at good use your creativity without risking to destroy solid bases for concepts or the old love of some players here and there.
I suggested some time ago a "Flying Impact" set as an alternative to Super Strength (which is instead grounded-only due to its best power being Foot Stomp anti-hover) but also balance the old one so it's playable again, for those who want to use it and like the "Hulk" feeling of it (with Rage as well). The same could be done with Energy Melee. If the new one is so fun, create an "Explosive Melee" (or whatever) with it and just balance the old one by changing the animation times.

[Super Atom]

2 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

The point that you seem to consistently miss is not that it's suddenly "complicated", but that it's another introduction of needless fluff to a set that never needed it and many oldschool EM players never wanted. The real kick to the nads is that you don't get to play the set how you want like you used to -- now you must play EM how the devs designed it to be played if you want to be anywhere close to optimal.

 

You also give up that damage to utilize an AoE that many of us didn't ask for because we didn't want the set to suffer due to homogenization (and your single target suffers for it, which was the fear).

 

No one is arguing that the set overall performs better than it used to. It's obvious the set is stronger on paper and in practice. Trouble is, it's not Energy Melee in feel anymore and that's where many of us have a problem.

I don't miss that point, I disagree with it. I'm an "old school EM player" and while i know many, I'm not gonna pretend i speak for them like you're doing. You absolutely can play how you want, it'll just not be optimal like you said. You're not giving up anything, you're using it elsewhere while maintain pre-issue 27 ET. The delusion that ET was gonna be 100% instant without EF is a baseless assumption and has no place in conversation about the changes because quite literally if you use EF on your AOE increase, EM is now exactly the same as it is now. That's my biggest problem with arguements like yours is you're using imaginary changes to defend why it's bad. You're right, EM doesn't feel the same with EF. It feels better, because i now have the option to have old ET without it being nerfed into the floor because it's proc based instead of a whole change which would require major adjustment to damage to prevent over-preforming. Having your cake and eating it too.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

You keep saying part time, but the fact is with the reduced recharge its up a lot more than it was Pre Nerf - ET.  But its so simple its pretty darn close to ET being full time fast.

When a player wants to use either of the other two combo options after Total Focus (TF), there is no fast Energy Transfer (ET) available.

When exempted down below where both TF and ET are available in a build, there is no fast Energy Transfer.

When a player does not use Total Focus first, there is no fast Energy Transfer.

When a player wanted to wait until later levels to take Total Focus in their build, there is no fast Energy Transfer.

 

There are no facts that change these and we could likely continue trying to pick fly shit out of the pepper.

With this beta, yeah, IT IS PART TIME but it can be available somewhat often. No real point in arguing it over and over.

 

Other topics:

I believe the ET recharge and endurance change was made to address the issue with corpse blasting on the long animation. What about the TF that's still almost as long as slow ET?

The recharge and endurance are nice but a poor substitute for just cancelling the power on target defeat. I get that adding a cancel could potentially open the team up to needing to proliferate it. 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Troo

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, ThunderCAP said:

Powers completely unplayable at the moment (Super Strength)

What?