Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, kenlon said:

Hmm. Wonder if we could bribe the Mid's devs to put out an Issue 27 Beta dataset for us to play with. . . 

You can edit mids easily for the tank brute stalker changes, but adding the scrapper its easier to just use STJ because its almost identical to how scrapper EM is.

 

I think they need to know what it will be on live HC first before they will update.

[Gobbledigook]

Heres my Feedback after testing...... (no need to reply to this post or argue it, it is just my Feedback for the developers and my opinion and i am not interested in arguing it as it is non productive)

 

I find the DPA of EM attacks a little too good compared to other sets. WM for example has lower DPA but Clobber made a big difference. EM has Energy Transfer which is Clobber on steroids.

 

Power crash is better than Shadow Maul for example. The extra 5 targets especially and a mag 3 stun.

 

Bone Smashers secondary debuff effect is too much also. Give it a low stun chance and the - regen and remove the Energy focus from it (only powercrash and ET)

 

Total focus is similar to Knockout Blow but Energy Transfer is like a beefed up Knockout blow on a 1 second activation and half the Cooldown.  Maybe blank ET from use until Energy Focus is achieved

 

This set can just clear mobs fast with the extra AoE and total Focus on bosses, when cleared switch to high single target dps to finish any Bosses/AV's off. This is not a low AoE high single target set, it does both! The only thing this set is missing is RAGE!!! lol

 

My opinion is that all the other sets will pale in comparison to this set if it goes ahead as it is. It needs lowering in some areas, otherwise it is a nice set.

 

EM and Dark armour will make a very stunning combo 😵

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[ABlueThingy]

1 hour ago, M3z said:

Yeah I never mentioned ET, why doesn't TF fully crit, when something like greater psi blade+insight crits? This set doesn't do the burst of psi melee and probably doesn't do half the DPS of katana, so why doesn't TF crit lol.

This is an Insighted Greater Psi Blade Strike sloted 2/2/2 acc/dmg/rech lvl50 IOs against a Pylon.  I had no set bonuses either.

 

Mind you I was using a Psi/Shield but I had all my damage boost powers turned off.  Per my Combat Attributes I had no bonus damage running.

 

 

Under the same conditions here's a Total Focus, sloted 2/2/2 Acc/Dmg/Rech with no set bonuses and no +dmg powers

 

 

 

ET doesn't seem to crit on the Pylons after QUITE A FEW TRIES it never crit'd.  I was also unable to get Greater Psi Blade to crit against it.

 

Take 2.

 

Against Quarry.  Otherwise same conditions.

 

 

 

 

 

ET did 522.95 damage total

 

GPB did 759.65 damage total

 

Mind you that Quarry has 45% lethal res.  I didn't know GPB did any lethal damage.  Still it's obvious it comes out ahead in raw damage.

 

However.

 

It took me FOREVER to get GSB to do it's thing.  And EM did way, way more damage over the same period. All Psi had was GSB, which is nice don't get me wrong.  But waiting to get insight and spaming my other powers and the insight lockout was costing me about 2-4 GSBs per rotation. On an unlucky streak I managed to take over 45 seconds before getting an insight.  On the other hand, I could spam TF on cooldown.  And more importantly TF is only the second highest damaging power. TF/ET as a combo out damaged anything Psi could put out easily.  The fact that EM didn't rely on crits meant I was always doing maximum damage. Crunching through things. Psi just had a few golden moments when Insight and Crit aligned

 

Maybe that changes with a well built IO set up but from what I can tell just looking EM is the higher single target damage set under anything other then arbitrary restrictions designed to favor Psi.

 

 

The answer appears to be the same. If TF could crit fully it would be insane.  GSB is allowed to crit because you can't control when you get insight and it has a hard-lockout.  You can't open with a fully powered GSB like you can with TF or ET(You don't need focus to boost ET's damage, just it's speed)

 

[ScarySai]

I'm unfamiliar with psi melee, so correct me if I'm wrong, but...

 

1: You aren't getting a critical insight boosted GPB twice per rotation, yes?

 

2: Psi's other attacks aren't as beefy as energy's other attacks, right?

 

3: ET is pure energy, Psi is typically not resisted much, or hugely resisted with no in-between.

[ABlueThingy]

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I'm unfamiliar with psi melee, so correct me if I'm wrong, but...

 

1: You aren't getting a critical insight boosted GPB twice per rotation, yes?

 

2: Psi's other attacks aren't as beefy as energy's other attacks, right?

 

3: ET is pure energy, Psi is typically not resisted much, or hugely resisted with no in-between.

Correct on all counts to the best of my knowledge.  For #1 specifically as far as I could tell GBP had the same 5-10% crit chance everything else did.

 

Psi melee can, using a limited mechanic and luck, get up to EM's ST damage for a moment. But EM will leave it in the dust in short order by spamming it's insane DPA rotation.

 

Of course Psi has other tricks, i'm not trying to dump on Psi.  It beats out EM's AoE and survivability handily. (Lots nice cones/AoEs, a confuse, KB/KD/KU)

 

[Hew]

@ABlueThingyexcellent testing! Looks great!

[Wavicle]

Energy Transfer DOES crit.

 

ET crits have no HP cost. More specifically they heal the damage back instantly.

[ScarySai]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Energy Transfer DOES crit.

 

ET crits have no HP cost. More specifically they heal the damage back instantly.

They actually don't damage you at all, it's just a heal.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, kenlon said:

Hmm. Wonder if we could bribe the Mid's devs to put out an Issue 27 Beta dataset for us to play with. . . 

I would be fine with the Mids update ready a week or two after I27 goes live, however, I would also go for this.

[Vanden]

6 hours ago, LQT said:

This is how stalkers work currently in game with Stalkers Focus as a chance on attack to generate, not a guaranteed proc on every non-AS 1' attack.

That doesn't really have the same issue I brought up, because a) it's not really worth using AS out of Hide without at least two stacks of Assassin's Focus, and b) AS is the only spender of Assassin's Focus, so people aren't going to queue up AS hoping to use just the base version and end up accidentally spending their focus on something when they wanted to save it for something else.

 

It's the same reason the claims that Stalker Kinetic Melee can get quadruple Build Up aren't really based in reality; Gaussian's Build Up is so short in duration, it's extremely hard to react quick enough to getting a Build Up recharge to use it and use an attack in that short window.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Vanden

[Direct Crit]

Adding in my personal feedback after playing around with the set a bit, and this is written from the perspective of a min-maxer that inherently builds characters to solo AVs/+4x8:

 

Pros

• Energy Focus is a great mechanic. I enjoy the idea behind having branching ways to spend it and perform differently, if I want an AoE focus or ST focus at any given time.
• The ET changes are great, I never expected us to touch the 1 second animation ever again and getting it back with the better game-feel of the screen shake on impact is a great choice.
• TF's faster animation does wonders for the feel and flow of the set. Even if TF got a damage reduction for it, it's a great change all around as the excessive animation was problematic.
• Bone Smasher and EP being brought up DPA wise is a welcome change, not entirely sure if necessary
• Power Crash as an additional AoE and Whirling Hands being brought into line help TREMENDOUSLY for game feel for EM. EM, despite everyone wanting to talk about being an ST focus, needed more AoE. This game does not really revolve around ST, and further many many sets don't inherently trade off additional ST for more AoE, so this line of approach always felt extra punishing. By giving it access to additional AoE, even if it's a touch weaker, EM feels like a set that performs well in a group or solo.

Cons

• Build Up should grant Energy Focus: Having to pop Total Focus to get Energy Focus for AoEing groups isn't baaaad but it'd help with the feel of the set, and allow more flexibility in play.
• Total Focus granting 2 stacks of Energy Focus on crit feels almost useless. In a single target rotation the -special on Bone Smasher is nice but I'd rather have the ability to pop it on ET again and Bone Smasher consuming it feels bad because effectively I'd have to avoid using Bone Smasher if I want that Energy Focus to be used 'optimally'. I'd almost prefer to see Energy Focus be released as a bonus damage proc on any attack, and it just speeds up ET otherwise to give it general use, but that may be asking for too much.
• I think TF should have a 50% Crit, if only because the crit ATs that use it don't get a lot of mileage out of crits on the set, making it feel weaker. I originally thought the extra Energy Focus on TF would offset the smaller crit, but it doesn't feel as rewarding due to my mentioned complaint above, where Bone Smasher doesn't feel like a great bonus for Energy Focus being spent.

Overall

 

I have dreamed of Energy Melee on Scrappers since day one on live. You're giving me that dream. You could give me the current crap version of Energy Melee on Scrappers and I'd be all smiles, this buffed set feels monstrously good even despite my minor complaints and were it released to live as is I think we'd see a strong positive influx of people enjoying EM again. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for at least letting me have this dream come true.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Tactical

[siolfir]

I just caught up to the thread (and found the early parts nigh intolerable with all the noise) so I simply responded with reactions on some posts rather than reiterate the same points.

 

To address a couple of points:

12 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Energy Transfer, indeed, does not crit extra damage.

 

To clarify: this is an extremely old rule that has been maintained by the live team and I am not ready to dismiss. Basically, powers that are too high damage (usually powers with a recharge of 20+ seconds) are not allowed to crit, as their crits (3.56 x2) results in more damage than Assassination (7.0.) The only exception to the rule is Crushing uppercut, and you need to build 3 stacks, something Stalkers cant actually do before entering combat since they have Build Up instead of Combat Readiness. Even then, a regular crit for Crushing Uppercut, at  25s recharge, is just 3.18x2=6.36)

 

For years before shut down, it was the goal that they would simply give such powers (like Concentrated Strike, or Energy Transfer) special functions instead of a damage crit, reason why you see Auto Recharge on CS for Scrappers, BU recharge on CS crit for Stalkers and Self Damage Avoidance on Energy Transfer.

 

Again, it is a design rule I am not ready to throw out the window at this time.

  The earliest iterations of Stalkers didn't limit it to scale 7.0 for Assassination: it had their critical damage cap at scale 4.56 - conveniently, what Energy Transfer does all the time. That's why the critical for Total Focus was reduced as much as it was; it came to scale 4.56 total on a critical. If they were just trying not to pass scale 7.0 it could do 90% of its base damage on a critical and still not get there. As there are a large number of attacks that do more than that now, including Clobber and Stalker's Eagle Claw (scale 2.92), Devastating Blow (3.08), Crushing Uppercut (3.18 at level 0), and Rend Armor (3.212), I could see adjusting the percentage of critical damage for it. It seems as if the rule was already on the way out, since early numbers for Radiation Melee had it at scale 3.56 with a full critical in addition to Crushing Uppercut going past scale 7 at combo level 3. I haven't redone the math in a bit, but I think Greater Psi Blade works out to scale 6.73 with a critical and Insight?

 

Regarding the rule itself as listed, I don't think that a hard-and-fast cutoff point for base recharge/damage - as opposed to final damage, which is what Total Focus and Energy Transfer have - really works anyway, since a theoretical attack with a 19 second recharge (scale 3.4) would be allowed to critical for scale 6.8 while adding one second of recharge to the power means it wouldn't critical because now it's at that magic cutoff point for base damage. I think you should just pick your cutoff point for the final damage including critical damage and make it consistent; it was 4.56 and no longer is, and hasn't been since the first set of Dark Melee and Martial Arts revamps.

 

While only tangentially related as it comes to allowing critical damage for these powers, Concentrated Strike for Stalkers and Scrappers has this as one of its many issues (which also include the hit time of the damage, the animation time, and for some the aspects animation itself). If you're giving up the extra damage, there should be something worth giving up the damage for. IMO the self-heal does this for Energy Transfer, while a lack of self-damage did not, and I feel that it's not enough on Total Focus because the animation time for Energy Transfer simply should not change and you're limiting power usage between the two powers to buy that (see below).

I have not yet played the Energy Melee on beta, although I intend to once I'm done with work, but I can already say that one of the things that I used to do with Energy Transfer (pre-nerf) is still impossible to do - likely intentionally - with these changes: because the fast animation is gated behind Total Focus, I cannot rush up to a group with a troublesome Lieutentant or minion and take it out before it gets a chance to act (teleporters, debuffers, or summoners typically; I played EM/ElA and could care less about Sappers). So all of the people saying "you get old Energy Transfer back," no, I don't. I do not have the freedom to adjust my attack chain on the fly, often completely ignoring and not using Total Focus due to its long animation ("but you'll use it anyway," I'm told - truer now with a shorter animation than it used to be, I suppose, but if I ever used even it, the powers were rarely back-to-back and if they were it was ET->TF for the stun on Fake Nems to keep them from bubbling).

 

I also feel that Bone Smasher consuming charges of focus is a penalty rather than a benefit; the -special and -regen are situational additions to the power, but I would rather have consistent animation times in every circumstance I can think of off the top of my head, so all it serves to do is prevent someone from using it in an attack chain between Total Focus and Energy Transfer 99.9+% of the time. Technically I suppose it's still "adding options" but I personally think that it's a bad option which in practice takes away more than it adds in nearly every circumstance and thus provides a newbie trap. I think the intent was to provide some single target use for Energy Focus before getting Energy Transfer, but in reality it just causes problems in a typical attack chain. I'd suggest moving it to Barrage so that it's in a power that isn't a staple of your attack chain, but then I think Tanker players who have to take Barrage would come for my head. Maybe throw it in as a bonus on the cone in addition to or instead of the increased max target count?

 

Overall the changes look like a substantial improvement, the biggest glaring issue to me is the pseudo-Momentum for Energy Transfer, and how that will affect my button-mashing (ie, an enforced power order usage to avoid a stupid animation that never should have been there in the first place, aka the "combo system"). That's something that I can test for feel to see if it's tolerable and how many times I mess up with Bone Smasher, but I can already say that I would've rather had a consistent animation time without any testing at all.

[Wavicle]

6 hours ago, LQT said:

They roll particularly well across the floor after ET'ing themselves when MoG is running!

I know this was a joke, but MoG doesn't work that way anymore.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

They actually don't damage you at all, it's just a heal.

oh wow, ok I misunderstood, even better

[DreadShinobi]

2 hours ago, Tactical said:

 

• Total Focus granting 2 stacks of Energy Focus on crit feels almost useless. In a single target rotation the -special on Bone Smasher is nice but I'd rather have the ability to pop it on ET again and Bone Smasher consuming it feels bad because effectively I'd have to avoid using Bone Smasher if I want that Energy Focus to be used 'optimally'. I'd almost prefer to see Energy Focus be released as a bonus damage proc on any attack, and it just speeds up ET otherwise to give it general use, but that may be asking for too much.
• I think TF should have a 50% Crit, if only because the crit ATs that use it don't get a lot of mileage out of crits on the set, making it feel weaker. I originally thought the extra Energy Focus on TF would offset the smaller crit, but it doesn't feel as rewarding due to my mentioned complaint above, where Bone Smasher doesn't feel like a great bonus for Energy Focus being spent.

 

Same feelings here. With ET being half the cooldown of Total Focus, and Total focus granting 2 stacks of EF on crit, it makes more sense not to use another EF consuming ability when you have 2 stacks of EF so that your second ET can have the reduced animation. BS consuming your EF does feel bad. I'd honestly prefer BS to not have a EF mechanic that consumes your ability to fast cast ET. It doesn't make sense to cast BS at all if you can recharge your other powers during EP's shorter animation time. 

 

Bumping TF crit damage from 28% to 50% would feel much more rewarding, especially for stalkers that really want to have something that heavily benefits from their crit mechanics coming out of AS hide proc. 

[Infinitum]

17 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

Same feelings here. With ET being half the cooldown of Total Focus, and Total focus granting 2 stacks of EF on crit, it makes more sense not to use another EF consuming ability when you have 2 stacks of EF so that your second ET can have the reduced animation. BS consuming your EF does feel bad. I'd honestly prefer BS to not have a EF mechanic that consumes your ability to fast cast ET. It doesn't make sense to cast BS at all if you can recharge your other powers during EP's shorter animation time. 

 

Bumping TF crit damage from 28% to 50% would feel much more rewarding, especially for stalkers that really want to have something that heavily benefits from their crit mechanics coming out of AS hide proc. 

Its useful if you have both PC and ET on a stalker, PC feels really good on the stalker when surrounded, you can run FET then PC to consume the stacks and mobs melt.

 

AS - TF - FET - EP - AS - EP - PC - EP - AS

 

usually i get too excited and mess that all up and it still works  lol

Edited October 26, 2020 by Infinitum

[Wavicle]

I believe the intention is for the scrapper to be able to Sometimes get both Focused BS and Focused ET in one application of TF, but not always.

[Direct Crit]

31 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Its useful if you have both PC and ET on a stalker, PC feels really good on the stalker when surrounded, you can run FET then PC to consume the stacks and mobs melt.

 

AS - TF - FET - EP - AS - EP - PC - EP - AS

 

usually i get too excited and mess that all up and it still works  lol

In a single target situation I'm not hitting Power Crash. In an AoE situation I'm specifically going to save EF for Power Crash as it's more powerful than a fast ET. But! I will also be using Bone Smasher as part of my chain, and having it consume the bonus EF feels bad when it basically feels like I'm being punished for using Bone Smasher. The EF bonus Bone Smasher gets is negligible at best.

[Direct Crit]

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I believe the intention is for the scrapper to be able to Sometimes get both Focused BS and Focused ET in one application of TF, but not always.

Stalkers and Scrappers both share this mechanic. Both suffer from the same issue. The Stalker can control when they get the bonus EF stack, yes, but they're still stuck with the basic problem of Bone Smasher consuming a stack of EF you'd rather save for ET, especially with EFs 15 second duration. I know people are citing the ability to stun bosses with TF -> BS but frankly that's not something a majority of sets will ever be using sans unique situations where you want to detoggle an enemy. The extra mag of stun and -Special is fairly useless overall and feels like a punishment to eat your extra stack of EF that'd be better spent on another fast-ET.

Again, I am speaking from the perspective of a high-end build, as that's primarily how I build and play my characters. What I'm asking for is an even stronger buff and I'm well aware, but I don't 'like' the feel we get from the bonus EF essentially being useless.

[Troo]

Would triggering off Bone Smasher work better? It gets used often anyway. That could help also avoid reordering powers.. but would the stun go to Energy Punch then.. I dunno.

 

I'm trying to work with the combo mechanic but something just feels off.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Troo

[Infinitum]

24 minutes ago, Tactical said:

In a single target situation I'm not hitting Power Crash. In an AoE situation I'm specifically going to save EF for Power Crash as it's more powerful than a fast ET. But! I will also be using Bone Smasher as part of my chain, and having it consume the bonus EF feels bad when it basically feels like I'm being punished for using Bone Smasher. The EF bonus Bone Smasher gets is negligible at best.

ET will drop just about any Lieutenant, so drop one hit 6,  drop 1 hit 6 - its effective and repeatable.

[Neogumbercules]

1 hour ago, Tactical said:

In a single target situation I'm not hitting Power Crash. In an AoE situation I'm specifically going to save EF for Power Crash as it's more powerful than a fast ET. But! I will also be using Bone Smasher as part of my chain, and having it consume the bonus EF feels bad when it basically feels like I'm being punished for using Bone Smasher. The EF bonus Bone Smasher gets is negligible at best.

This is why I suggested that Energy Focus be a timed buff like Momentum and not just blow the load on a single attack. It'll give people room for error (I'm guilty of clicking wrong or pre-loading an attack at the wrong time too) and it'll also allow for some build optimization to squeeze as much into that Energy Focus window as possible.

[Direct Crit]

44 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

ET will drop just about any Lieutenant, so drop one hit 6,  drop 1 hit 6 - its effective and repeatable.

I don't understand what you're saying here. When I say single target situation I'm specifically talking about fighting an AV. Most things in the game won't survive a TF -> ET for the most part. This is just in the scope of an attack chain against something that is more than a small meatbag that grants XP.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Tactical said:

Stalkers and Scrappers both share this mechanic. Both suffer from the same issue. The Stalker can control when they get the bonus EF stack, yes, but they're still stuck with the basic problem of Bone Smasher consuming a stack of EF you'd rather save for ET, especially with EFs 15 second duration. I know people are citing the ability to stun bosses with TF -> BS but frankly that's not something a majority of sets will ever be using sans unique situations where you want to detoggle an enemy. The extra mag of stun and -Special is fairly useless overall and feels like a punishment to eat your extra stack of EF that'd be better spent on another fast-ET.

Again, I am speaking from the perspective of a high-end build, as that's primarily how I build and play my characters. What I'm asking for is an even stronger buff and I'm well aware, but I don't 'like' the feel we get from the bonus EF essentially being useless.

I am saying the double EF is I think more intended for you to use on two Different consumers instead of two ETs, but even if you had your ET recharge nice and high so you can get two, what’s the problem? Use EP, Barrage, or WH as your fillers and you won’t lose the stack.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Wavicle

[Direct Crit]

49 minutes ago, Troo said:

Would triggering off Bone Smasher work better? It gets used often anyway. That could help also avoid reordering powers.. but would the stun go to Energy Punch then.. I dunno.

 

I'm trying to work with the combo mechanic but something just feels off.

 

Not really? Honestly I originally thought EF was going to be a % chance to trigger from any attack originally and something you could happen to spend on others. Having a consistent generator -> spender is fine, it's specifically for the Crit classes that TF generates an extra EF as part of the trade off for TFs lower crit. Brutes/Tanks will feel just fine, but for Stalkers/Scrappers it feels like TF is being slightly nerfed and given the extra EF as an exchange, but that exchange isn't worth the trade as the extra EF isn't useful all the time? It's certainly not the end of the world, and getting the Stun + -Special is perfectly acceptable, but in reality it just doesn't amount to anything significant compared to the boost ET gets from the faster animation.