Focused Feedback: Titan Weapons Revamp

[Blackbird71]

20 hours ago, Lines said:

I guess keep in mind that balance is the performance of the set versus the environment, rather than the set versus other sets (except for PvP). It doesn't really matter how much one set outperforms another set as long as the game opposes them both within a certain tolerance.

Might be a little off-topic, but, *points to Blaster Secondary thread*  They've specifically stated many of those changes have been made to bring the sets inline with each other, so it is now very much "set versus other sets."

[Saikochoro]

On 11/7/2020 at 1:02 PM, Tore said:

Literally when the server was being put together by the homecoming team. If you were around then you would have heard that being talked about alot since several other servers wanted to implement all kinds of new ideas and the homecoming team made a conscious decision to make this a vanilla ish server. 

I don’t see how one can come to the conclusion that homecoming was intended to be a vanilla ish server. Even in the beginning of the resurgence homecoming was clearly known to be one of the servers furthest from a vanilla experience. I know other servers have made a lot of updates since then, but homecoming has never really been what CoH was at sundown. 
 

I’m not saying this as a bad thing. I like pretty much all of what homecoming has done. Or at least can understand it. I’m just saying from an observational standpoint, homecoming was never really vanilla given all the changes it already had when everything started up again. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Saikochoro

[Kanil]

so, yesterday i realized while testing dark melee that i think all the testing that's been posted is on scrappers and only scrappers because they're the ones who really get really above board.

i know in the ST testing scrappers more or less have only a very slight ding in their ST damage rating (being 1st or tied w/ 1st place w/ em theoretically) because of that weird caveat i keep posting about in regards to follow through crit strikes ATO and non-momentum rend armor.

 

based on my testing for everything outside of that string, i was thinking that it's likely the general ST output for non-scrapper TW cratered due to not being able to exploit that and i wanted to test my theory.

 

since my first 'serious' char on everlasting was a tw brute, so i figured i'd take 'em out for a spin and start comparing the times to see what that looks like, haha.

these are a pretty small sample size, but figured i'd post 'em for now.

 

trapdoor times:

 

live tw/bio brute:
5m18s
5m3s
5m20s

 

beta tw/bio brute
5m47s
6m1s
6m8s

 

i was curious about why it was matching beta tw scrapper times and went back to test 'em and got stuff still in the same range (5m45s and 5m57s) so there's something causing to even out. i guess the live tw/bio brute times are pretty close too, just never had anything that got lucky enough to dip into the sub 5m range i guess. so the overall loss of AOE power for high-end builds roughly scales about the same as scrappers, which is "probably a lot". there's an interesting aspect to it where brutes are able to leverage the sped up crushing blow more because they aren't trapped with using crit strikes so they can flex aoe strings a bit better which maybe evens things out vs. the crits.

 

probably need to gather more samples but i'm being lazy at the moment, haha.

 

as for pylon times:

live TW brute:
1m35s
1m42s
1m48s

1m40s

 

beta TW brute:
2m24s
2m45s
2m26s

2m52s

 

so uh, yeah... that's a pretty hefty increase that i think more or less tracks with the overall time gain for scrappers in ST damage barring the FT->rend armor ato slotting/string. the loss in damage is theoretically apparently 20%-ish or so in DPS but i'm not quite sure how that scales to pylon times. around a 50s-ish or higher gain in time seems like, uh, way more than a 20% loss but it's not like i've ever touched the dps calculator.

 

the bug on where the momentum is generated for crushing blow is really notable too for potentially causing the damage differences - the beta TW can't do the same string as live TW because of the loss of the second or so of momentum time from momentum being generated slightly too early on CB. it theoretically shouldn't cause too much of a difference because the only thing that's being lost is a single FT overall but that might add up. hard to say.

 

 

[siolfir]

14 hours ago, Kanil said:

so uh, yeah... that's a pretty hefty increase that i think more or less tracks with the overall time gain for scrappers in ST damage barring the FT->rend armor ato slotting/string. the loss in damage is theoretically apparently 20%-ish or so in DPS but i'm not quite sure how that scales to pylon times. around a 50s-ish or higher gain in time seems like, uh, way more than a 20% loss but it's not like i've ever touched the dps calculator.

Just stealing from the first post in the pylon thread, the equation is ((30677.15+(102.26*Time))/Time)/(1-0.20)).

 

Your times averaged over the four posted runs were 101.25 seconds on live, and 156.75 on beta.

 

Plugging in 101.25 we get 506.55 DPS on live, and 372.46 DPS on beta. A 20% drop in DPS from 506.55 would be 405.24, 372.46 is a 26.5% reduction. It's a small number of tests and the beta numbers fluctuated a lot more, so you'll have to decide your own tolerance on "close enough."

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

Just stealing from the first post in the pylon thread, the equation is ((30677.15+(102.26*Time))/Time)/(1-0.20)).

 

Your times averaged over the four posted runs were 101.25 seconds on live, and 156.75 on beta.

 

Plugging in 101.25 we get 506.55 DPS on live, and 372.46 DPS on beta. A 20% drop in DPS from 506.55 would be 405.24, 372.46 is a 26.5% reduction. It's a small number of tests and the beta numbers fluctuated a lot more, so you'll have to decide your own tolerance on "close enough."

Nice, this looks about right. I went back to see what the changes to the DPA are compared with the Live version of Titan Weapons. The slow attacks do about 9% less, while the fast attacks do about 24-29% less on single target attacks (34-36% less on the cones). Granted, the DPA changes does not necessarily mean that is the drop in DPS performance, but it will be strongly correlated. Attacks recharge faster now, attack chains change, so it's not true apples to apples, but it will be close enough. It's also worth noting the proc performance drops for fast attacks which contribute to the loss of DPS. Combine all that, a 26.5% reduction would feel about right.

 

DPA Ratio (%)	Slow	Fast
Defensive Sweep	91.69%	77.02%
Crushing Blow	90.91%	73.17%
Titan Sweep	91.69%	65.68%
Follow Through		72.69%
Rend Armor	90.91%	71.31%
Whirling Smash		75.99%
Arc of Destruction	75.19%	63.60%

Edited November 13, 2020 by Bopper

[TheSpiritFox]

On 10/25/2020 at 4:37 AM, Keleko said:

The more I think about it, the more I become convinced the damage recalculation portion is the wrong thing to do.  Why?  It's simple.

 

While Momentum is active, these powers are granted a temporary 25% recharge and endurance reduction enhancement.

 

When I add a recharge or endurance reduction enhancement to a power it does not recalculate the damage of the power "per the standard damage formulas."  When a global enhancement bonus to recharge/endurance is applied to all my powers, my attacks do not recalculate damage "per the standard damage formulas."  When another activated power that reduces recharge/endurance costs to all my powers is applied (by me or another player), my attacks do not recalculate damage "per the standard damage formulas."

 

Across every attack in the game an attack's damage is calculated from the original power numbers per the standard damage formulas.  They are never recalculated because of some change to the power's recharge/endurance cost when using powers or enhancements that modify those values. Correct me if I'm wrong and provide examples because I know of exactly zero instances.

 

It's fine if you want to add that recharge and endurance reduction as a benefit to having Momentum.  But, it should not change the damage calculation as it is fully inconsistent with the rest of the game effects that also apply similar reductions.  Damage calculation is not a sliding scale based on changing recharge and endurance costs.  It never has been.  It never should be.

I agree with this. I like what I've heard of all of the titan weapon changes, but attaching a damage reduction to an inherent BUFF mechanic like that is something not done anywhere else in the game code and this should not be the start of that trend. 

[Tore]

On 11/9/2020 at 1:44 AM, Replacement said:

I wouldn't say I want you to go.

Just that any time someone hedges their argument about how we should be keeping the game pure, I'm going to remind them that's not The vision of this server. And if I can, I'll remind them of all the good things Homecoming has done along the way. 🙂

 

 

What is the vision of this server exactly if you could elaborate?

 

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Tore said:

 

What is the vision of this server exactly if you could elaborate?

 

 

[Tore]

13 hours ago, Bopper said:

 

Thank you for this link, I genuinely had no idea that this was the end game plan. 

[Galaxy Brain]

On 11/13/2020 at 10:11 PM, TheSpiritFox said:

I agree with this. I like what I've heard of all of the titan weapon changes, but attaching a damage reduction to an inherent BUFF mechanic like that is something not done anywhere else in the game code and this should not be the start of that trend. 

To be honest, it also comes with a massive buff to Rech and Endurance Reduction so its sort of double edged.

[Jimmy]

As the patch is nearing completion, we are no longer seeking feedback on this topic.

 

The latest patch notes can be found in the Beta Patch Notes forum.

 

If you encounter any bugs during this last phase of testing, please report them in the Beta Bug Reports forum.

 

Once the patch is live, feel free to post feedback in the Suggestions & Feedback forum. and bug reports in the Bug Reports forum.

 

Thank you!