Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[KaizenSoze]

Build: TA/Ice defender. Overall better than TA/elec, due much more AOE damage

 

Soloing tally:

4x8 Council melts even faster

3x8 Arachnos are doable now

 

Flash Arrow and Poison Gas Arrow handle the alpha just fine. With only 23% defense. I do have decent 58% s/l resists and clarion.

 

Acid arrow's -def makes sure everything hits.

 

My current attack chain, I have stealth and celerity running. FA->stand in the middle of the pack->AA->PGA->DA->OSA->Consume which ignites OSA->Ice Storm->Blizzard

 

Mobs don't long last  under -40 resists, OSA, IS, and Blizz. Everything is so slowed and -recharged, that they barely run or attack before death... er arrest.

 

Come to the beta server. Try it out, TA is doing great now!

 

TA/Ice build:

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Secondary Power Set: Ice Blast
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Flame Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- TraoftheH-Acc/Rchg(A), TraoftheH-EndRdx/Immob(3)
Level 1: Ice Bolt -- SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(5), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(9)
Level 2: Flash Arrow -- DmpSpr-ToHitDeb(A), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(3), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/Rchg(9), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(11)
Level 4: Ice Blast -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), ImpSwf-Dam%(17), Thn-Acc/Dmg(19), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(19)
Level 6: Ice Arrow -- Lck-%Hold(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(21), GldNet-Dam%(21), NrnSht-Dam%(23), ImpSwf-Dam%(23), PcnoftheT--Rchg%(25)
Level 8: Poison Gas Arrow -- Acc-I(A)
Level 10: Aim -- GssSynFr--Build%(A)
Level 12: Acid Arrow -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(27), AchHee-ResDeb%(27), TchofLadG-%Dam(29), ShlBrk-%Dam(29)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 16: Freeze Ray -- NrnSht-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(25), UnbCns-Dam%(48), GldNet-Dam%(50), Lck-%Hold(50), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(50)
Level 18: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 20: Ice Storm -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(A), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(31), SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(31), Bmbdmt-Dam/Rech(33), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(33), Bmbdmt-Dam(33)
Level 22: Stealth -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A)
Level 24: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 26: Oil Slick Arrow -- Rgn-Knock%(A), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Rgn-Dmg(34), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(34), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(36)
Level 28: Bitter Ice Blast -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Apc-Dmg(37), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(37), Apc-Acc/Rchg(39)
Level 30: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), GldArm-ResDam(39), GldArm-End/Res(39)
Level 32: EMP Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Consume -- SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed(A), SynSck-Dam/Acc/End(40), SynSck-EndMod(40), SynSck-Dam/Rech(40), SynSck-EndMod/Rech(42), SynSck-Dam/Rech/Acc(42)
Level 38: Blizzard -- SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(42), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(43), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 41: Fire Shield -- StdPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(45), StdPrt-ResKB(45)
Level 44: Greater Fire Sword -- Hct-Dam%(A), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(46), Hct-Dmg(46), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(46), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Hct-Acc/Rchg(48)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Prv-Absorb%(11), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(13), Mrc-Rcvry+(13)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(15)
------------

 

 

 

[Replacement]

11 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Not a bug, it seems.

 

AVs have a min resist for -ToHit of 30%

Bosses a Min resist of 20%

Lieutenants a min of 10%

Minions and players a min res of -300%

 

The debuff still will eat through any additional -ToHit res the critter might have (level 50+ AVs tend to have powers that grant them very high resistance to most debuffs.)

 

 

 

...I'm sorry, my brain is making a clicking noise.  Are you saying the ToHit debuff is largely ineffective on anything above minions because those mobs are already at their ToHit Resistance floors?

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

...I'm sorry, my brain is making a clicking noise.  Are you saying the ToHit debuff is largely ineffective on anything above minions because those mobs are already at their ToHit Resistance floors?

Yeah, I was surprised by that. I wasn't aware different ranks came with pre-existing resistance to To-Hit debuffs. This might not be a bug for the set, but it sure seems like a weird minimum for non-minions to have.

[Bossk_Hogg]

15 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

If OSA were balanced around the damage it deals, it would have a minimum recharge time of 6 minutes (360s) and a minimum 33% higher endurance cost, in line with powers which dealt similar damage when it was created.  But Castle stretched the balance budget to the limit and granted the power discounts to recharge time and endurance cost to bring it down to expected defender stats for primary powers because it's a debuff and soft control with optional bonus damage.

That makes no sense. Show me the math, because Blizzard, which deals more damage, inflicts KB, slow, and a major to hit debuff is on a 170 second timer.  

 

Their design formulas are kinda crap anyways given they dont even take animation time into account.

[Monos King]

3 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

acid arrow is still a nothing power that is taking up space in rotation for a counterintuitive effect. It seems sloppy. There is a reason acid powers lower -res and players are familiar with that - verisimilitude should be a design goal. Now I didn’t need to loose two arrows for my -res needs, but I do need to soak’em in vinegar to get the most out of flash, EMP and others.

Don't have much to say on the matter of immersion, technically disruption arrow would be a better candidate for acid arrows affects (besides -def) based off of the precedent this game has set for sonic and toxic powers. But that could be done by a quick swap.

 

Are you suggesting restoring the -res to acid arrow would be an improvement as to the totally new and effective attribute it has now? You would be wrong there, extremely so.

1. Trick Arrow doesn't need anymore -res. 

You just stated that you could only see Acid Arrow being a filler power for if the existing debuffs were not strong enough, and that this would be a sloppy resolution, but at the moment you are suggesting the same be done to prop up the sets -res. Entangling Arrow was actually given -res for essentially that reason, and as a t1 priority power anyway, it holds fine. Simple, not sloppy. Interestingly enough, though, your original claim is correct in one instance because...

 

      2. This power secures mastermind.               survivability.

 

Corrs just need to contribute to the team, but masterminds need to keep their funeralphilic pets alive as long as possible. Acid Arrows -debuff res keeps MMs debuffs relevant and effective at higher levels with it's lower effect modifiers, while also allowing them and any TA character to be exceptionally desired. This is because...

 

        3. Trick Arrow promotes synergy

 

Acid Arrow is currently the most team augmenting debuff in the game. If acid arrow just gave some aisle 1, counter-top -resistance, then it would have minimal significance when enemies are already being debuffed by sets like cold and sonic or even other TAs, and would only be improving the teams damage. You can already do that. But with acid arrow? Acid Arrow you can improve EVERYONES -to hit, make their endurance drains matter, and for the first time EVER make their -regeneration, -recharge, and even +endurance cost more effective. This same power is the FIRST to be able to cut down the nigh immunity to debuffs archvillains and some GMs posess. It is synergy beyond the likes of Oil Slick Arrow, or PGAs interaction with -res. Get a band of TA together, and you'll be able to shut down AVs like never before. Would you really want to trade off a totally new way to affect enemies for a run-of-the-mill -res the set doesn't even need?

 

In synopsis, Acid Arrow is necessary for MMs, allows entire teams to debuff stronger and effect enemies better, and is just generally better than -res. I am certain you will see this in due time.

[Monos King]

50 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Yeah, I was surprised by that. I wasn't aware different ranks came with pre-existing resistance to To-Hit debuffs. This might not be a bug for the set, but it sure seems like a weird minimum for non-minions to have.

I had suspected this might've been the case, similar to the inherent accuracy modifiers the NPCs receive. The original game literally never had subtractions to debuff resistance, so that's probably why it was never looked at.

 

It's pretty troublesome though. Unless it somehow requires something crazy, like manually adjusting this for each NPC group, I think it's a good idea to get rid of the low cap, while keeping the values. Besides Bosses-beyond, all of them should get to be taken down to at least zero to-hit resistance.

[WindDemon21]

5 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

Or I can drawn them into an ambush, at a corner->DA->OSA->Ball Lightning->Wait for the lead mob to around the corner->AA->PGA->Short Circuit->etc

Now just imagine if glue arrow was location based like it should be and you used that to trap them THEN casted oil slick as they are built up and had even more slows on them...

[KaizenSoze]

16 minutes ago, Monos King said:

3. Trick Arrow promotes synergy

 

Acid Arrow is currently the most team augmenting debuff in the game. If acid arrow just gave some aisle 1, counter-top -resistance, then it would have minimal significance when enemies are already being debuffed by sets like cold and sonic or even other TAs, and would only be improving the teams damage. You can already do that. But with acid arrow? Acid Arrow you can improve EVERYONES -to hit, make their endurance drains matter, and for the first time EVER make their -regeneration, -recharge, and even +endurance cost more effective. This same power is the FIRST to be able to cut down the nigh immunity to debuffs archvillains and some GMs posess. It is synergy beyond the likes of Oil Slick Arrow, or PGAs interaction with -res. Get a band of TA together, and you'll be able to shut down AVs like never before. Would you really want to trade off a totally new way to affect enemies for a run-of-the-mill -res the set doesn't even need?

 

In synopsis, Acid Arrow is necessary for MMs, allows entire teams to debuff stronger and effect enemies better, and is just generally better than -res. I am certain you will see this in due time.

I really want to try Acid Arrow on a team, but there are no teams on the beta server.

 

As best as I can tell, Acid Arrow is helping slow the council wolves, so they cannot escape the AOEs as fast. So, it's useful soloing.

 

I like the new Disruption Arrow behavior. Now, that all TA powers are useful, builds are going to be really slot starved. Being able to have your main -res as one power that only needs one slot, recharge, is a benefit. Not being able stack takes the pressure off to slot it more. Especially, now that Flash Arrow should be max slotted for -tohit, 3-4 slots, for the -32%.

 

For me, Glue Arrow is now the odd power out. At least, with a Ice Blast secondary.

 

To combination of flash arrow, which removes the need to softcap def. Acid arrow which removes the need for high accuracy, allowing more procs. And finally, poison gas arrow, which basically gives an effective +25-50 resists against damage. Turns TA from a squishy set, to a very durable set.

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

For me, Glue Arrow is now the odd power out. At least, with a Ice Blast secondary.

Which it wouldn't be if it were location based.

[Monos King]

14 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

For me, Glue Arrow is now the odd power out. At least, with a Ice Blast secondary.

I agree. With ice blast it'll definitely be kind of mundane no matter what and that's that, but I suggested earlier it should stack. That would help with other power combinations.

 

Along the lines of making it more unique, I could only see it getting like a reverse gauntlet that reduces AoE potential, which would be somewhat niche, but as it stands Glue Arrow isn't bad at what it does.

[KaizenSoze]

13 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Which it wouldn't be if it were location based.

This will probably sound counter-intuitive, but I be fine if DA and OSA were targeted, not location, focused.

 

As it is now, I have to create powexec_location binds for those two powers. Most times, I start the fight right in the middle of the spawn.

 

As for ambushes, I could pop one at range and wait for for it to turn the corner before dropping DA and OSA.

 

Slightly less convenient, but in most fights a mob targeted power is more convenient.

[KaizenSoze]

9 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I agree. With ice blast it'll definitely be kind of mundane no matter what and that's that, but I suggested earlier it should stack. That would help with other power combinations.

 

Along the lines of making it more unique, I could only see it getting like a reverse gauntlet that reduces AoE potential, which would be somewhat niche, but as it stands Glue Arrow isn't bad at what it does.

I think GA would be great for cone based secondaries. Or if you wanted to fight all at ranged. Use GA to create a area of denial between the mobs and you.

 

But power and slot starvation will be a serious problem for TA builds now. IMO TA power selection will be driven heavily by the secondaries.

 

As it is now, I have so many powers I keep forgetting to use Entangling Arrow or EMP Arrow. My little brain can only keep track of so many powers. 🙂

[WindDemon21]

9 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

This will probably sound counter-intuitive, but I be fine if DA and OSA were targeted, not location, focused.

 

As it is now, I have to create powexec_location binds for those two powers. Most times, I start the fight right in the middle of the spawn.

 

As for ambushes, I could pop one at range and wait for for it to turn the corner before dropping DA and OSA.

 

Slightly less convenient, but in most fights a mob targeted power is more convenient.

Which powexeclocation allows you to do just that, the same can't be said to make it work as a location power which any power that creates a ranged patch should do.

[Luminara]

47 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

That makes no sense. Show me the math, because Blizzard, which deals more damage, inflicts KB, slow, and a major to hit debuff is on a 170 second timer.

 

The recharge time on Blizzard, Blackstar, Thunderous Blast, Nova, Inferno, Psychic Wail, Atomic Blast and Dreadful Wail was 360s when TA went live.  And for the rest of the lifetime of the game, until the day it shut down.  Those recharge times were adjusted in I24, which was still in beta on the original servers.  OSA's recharge time was not, because despite having the capability to deal as much damage as some of those nukes, it was treated as a defender primary power, a debuff and soft control.

 

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Their design formulas are kinda crap anyways given they dont even take animation time into account.

 

K.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Yeah, I was surprised by that. I wasn't aware different ranks came with pre-existing resistance to To-Hit debuffs. This might not be a bug for the set, but it sure seems like a weird minimum for non-minions to have.

 

It's a leftover from when critter hit chances used ToHit instead of Accuracy, I suspect.  It might even be pre-Purple Patch, or part of the Purple Patch.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

Are you saying the ToHit debuff is largely ineffective on anything above minions because those mobs are already at their ToHit Resistance floors?

 

No, those are just the resistances they have to the debuff.  The lowest possible value that can be applied with a -resist -ToHit.  The real question is, what is their base resistance to -ToHit?  Is it the floor, in the case of standard bosses, or do they start with a specific resistance to -ToHit that can be subsequently lowered to 20%?  What do they start with and how does -res -ToHit impact that number?

 

At a guess, any boss not specifically coded, meaning generic Bossname bosses encountered in standard mission content, would have just the 20% resistance to -ToHit, and Acid's -res -ToHit would simply have no impact.  The same should be true of lieutenants and minions, if it's true for bosses, with minions at 0% and fully capable of being debuffed to -300%.  AVs still leave a hell of a lot of room for -res -ToHit to work, though, even with that 30% floor.

[Monos King]

3 minutes ago, Luminara said:

No, those are just the resistances they have to the debuff.  The lowest possible value that can be applied with a -resist -ToHit.

I believe that's what he's saying. If the lieutenant or boss had an additional source of -to hit resistance, acid arrow would still be useful, but the goal isn't to be situational in that way. As it stands, since all lieutenants and bosses both start and end with 10% or 20% -to hit resistance, using it will relegate the -to hit res portion of Acid Arrow completely ineffective...unless they for some reason have focused accuracy or something of that nature. So their floors are their base values. Interestingly enough, the -to hit res portion is useless 98% of the time on lieutenants, bosses, and most EBs, but still effective on minions, AV scaled EBs, AVs, and GMs - for different reasons. Don't think that's the ideal position.

[4th.survivor]

2 hours ago, Monos King said:

Don't have much to say on the matter of immersion, technically disruption arrow would be a better candidate for acid arrows affects (besides -def) based off of the precedent this game has set for sonic and toxic powers. But that could be done by a quick swap.

 

Are you suggesting restoring the -res to acid arrow would be an improvement as to the totally new and effective attribute it has now? You would be wrong there, extremely so.

1. Trick Arrow doesn't need anymore -res. 

You just stated that you could only see Acid Arrow being a filler power for if the existing debuffs were not strong enough, and that this would be a sloppy resolution, but at the moment you are suggesting the same be done to prop up the sets -res. Entangling Arrow was actually given -res for essentially that reason, and as a t1 priority power anyway, it holds fine. Simple, not sloppy. Interestingly enough, though, your original claim is correct in one instance because...

 

      2. This power secures mastermind.               survivability.

 

Corrs just need to contribute to the team, but masterminds need to keep their funeralphilic pets alive as long as possible. Acid Arrows -debuff res keeps MMs debuffs relevant and effective at higher levels with it's lower effect modifiers, while also allowing them and any TA character to be exceptionally desired. This is because...

 

        3. Trick Arrow promotes synergy

 

Acid Arrow is currently the most team augmenting debuff in the game. If acid arrow just gave some aisle 1, counter-top -resistance, then it would have minimal significance when enemies are already being debuffed by sets like cold and sonic or even other TAs, and would only be improving the teams damage. You can already do that. But with acid arrow? Acid Arrow you can improve EVERYONES -to hit, make their endurance drains matter, and for the first time EVER make their -regeneration, -recharge, and even +endurance cost more effective. This same power is the FIRST to be able to cut down the nigh immunity to debuffs archvillains and some GMs posess. It is synergy beyond the likes of Oil Slick Arrow, or PGAs interaction with -res. Get a band of TA together, and you'll be able to shut down AVs like never before. Would you really want to trade off a totally new way to affect enemies for a run-of-the-mill -res the set doesn't even need?

 

In synopsis, Acid Arrow is necessary for MMs, allows entire teams to debuff stronger and effect enemies better, and is just generally better than -res. I am certain you will see this in due time.

 

Your argument boils down to "sure, it may not make any sense but it's categorically better and so I'm for it."  While at the same time admiring the changes as "simple, not sloppy." and promoting synergy in a game where this is already readily abundant. I don't buy much of that reasoning.
 

I never suggested restoring -res to acid arrow would be an improvement. I am suggesting that it is appropriate. We agree that "technically" disruption arrow is a better home for the new -debuff res mechanic that you feel is indispensable, so let's build toward that consensus rather than get bogged down debating the existence of the new mechanic since people aren't going to give up a new toy.

Entangling Arrow is a tier 1 immobilize.  There should be only one reason I fire this at anything higher than a lieutenant, and that would be to stack immobs on a boss or higher that I for some reason would like to see immobilized.  On test however, this does not bear out.  I fire it at bosses+ purely because the secondary effect is akin to the primary effect of powers like acid mortar, venom grenade, envenom or (yes) the present-day live version of acid arrow.  Imagine a blaster and a corruptor each lining up their bows to fire off their respective nets and trying the mental gymnastics necessary to justify the difference in power effects as they've been presented.  "My net electrifies, albeit with a lessened secondary effect!" says the blaster.  "My net amplifies our damage on target by 15%, give or take" Says the corruptor, as they each activate their tier 1 secondary immob.  Should Blaster/Tac Arrow/Electrified Net Arrow be similarly amended with a (highly) marginal blaster scale -res effect to match?  If I'm firing this power at Bosses and up, let's be real and say the -res effect is actually the primary effect and the reason I've chosen the power.  And if it's the primary effect, it ought to be in a power that is primarily the tool for that job.  That is why it is appropriate for acid arrow to remain primarily a -res tool, since that's literally what it says on the tin - "corrodes the targets armor."

 

Acid Arrow should be patterned after Poison/envenom, plain and simple.  It is congruent with all similar power effects.  This is not giving the set MORE -res as you assert in point 1, since I've already positioned it within the suggestion of removing the -res from entangling.  1 - 1 + 1 = 1 (not 2).  That would make Acid Arrow primarily a single target -res (literally like its power description), and the AoE portion could remain -def.  It would be _really_ cool if the single target effect could also incorporate envenoms -regen (take it from EMP to stay on budget) and -heal (it has already been given this), which it seems like the team almost went for but couldn't quite commit to.  I would vastly prefer that over the new mechanic, but since people cannot give up their new toy... move the new toy into disrupting, where we agree it fits.

That takes us to disrupting.  Is 40% AoE -res PLUS the new -debuff res mechanic too much for one power, even a lynchpin like this one?  I could see that argument.  Yet all these options were presented to us an presumably justified on-budget, and I still think this is the best way to lay out everything presented to us.  If the concern is my proposed swaps would make disrupting arrow too lopsided/overloaded, dial the -res on this power back to 30%  (the same value as a Longbow Nullifier's sonic grenade, practically the the same power I might point out), and stick 10% of the AoE -res back into acid arrow, tweaking AA into a power which greatly inconveniences the hard target it hits, and slightly inconveniences those within splash range, all while remaining a comfortable and familiar power (and employed in the exact same fashion you are advocating for on test, so soften up a hard target).

The argument can't be made that these proposed changes go too far since they're merely shuffling existing effects between powers, something being seen as NBD in light of criticism to the enshrined idea, but which is the main thing I'm concerned with.

Here's my proposal, then, with changes from the test build highlighted

Entangling arrow:  single target immob, -def  (go ahead and change blaster/tac arrow/electrified net to a marginal blaster scale -def as well, and differentiate "net" type immobs from others this way)
Flash arrow: AoE -tohit (50% irresistable), single target chance for mag 2 stun (the guy hit by the arrow sure feels it, but chance for stun prevents easy stacking w beanbag/KO arrow)

Glue arrow: AoE slow, AoE -rech
Ice arrow: single target mag 3 hold, -rech, -special
Poison Gas arrow: AoE -dam, sleep
Acid arrow: single target -20% res, AoE -def, -heal, -regen?,  (OR single target -20% res, AoE -10% res, AoE -def, -heal)
Disrupting arrow: AoE -40% res, -debuff res (or AoE -30% res, -debuff res)
Oil slick arrow: no changes
EMP arrow: improve dmg vs robots, improve -end, improve -rec, move -regen to acid arrow? keep ally +res or trade for a better debuff effect?

Notice we can stack two effects from almost any source, meaning any type of debuff can be skipped to consider a pool power instead if that's not the direction the player wants to take.  We are left with in-set synergy between Entangling/Acid (-def), Acid/Disrupting (-res), Glue/Ice (-rech), soft controls (ST hold, AoE sleep, AoE hold), and incidentals useful vs AV's (-regen, -debuff res)
 

Homecoming - a return to the comfortable/familiar.  Even if we bypass the fact that this new -debuff res mechanic does not justify its own existence in a 20 year old game, I would prefer a beloved set merely be tuned into a more useful version of itself rather than something else in pursuit of 'new mechanics'

Thanks for reading

Edited October 27, 2020 by 4th.survivor

[Captain Powerhouse]

4 hours ago, Trickshooter said:

lost about 60 lbs and got engaged

 

Congratulations!

[Captain Powerhouse]

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

...I'm sorry, my brain is making a clicking noise.  Are you saying the ToHit debuff is largely ineffective on anything above minions because those mobs are already at their ToHit Resistance floors?

 

It seems the -Res(-ToHit) might not be very effective against most lts/bosses, BUT it will be effective against almost all AVs, since they have additional +Res(-ToHit.) At level 50, many AVs have around 85% resistance against ToHit debuffs, so that -Res(-ToHit) will make a big impact.

 

Bosses and lts ritters with things like targeting drone, i think, also end up having +Res(-ToHit)

[KaizenSoze]

25 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

Flash arrow: AoE -tohit (50% irresistable), single target chance for mag 2 stun (the guy hit by the arrow sure feels it, but chance for stun prevents easy stacking w beanbag/KO arrow)

I like most of your suggestions, except this one.

 

I do not want anything that could notify mobs on Flash Arrow. I understand it's only a single target effect, but I want to be able to debuff in peace from the shadows. 🙂

[Monos King]

38 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

Your argument boils down to "sure, it may not make any sense but it's categorically better and so I'm for it."  While at the same time admiring the changes as "simple, not sloppy." and promoting synergy in a game where this is already readily abundant. I don't buy much of that reasoning.

It was not abundant in Trick Arrow, now it is. I acknowledged that Disruption would be a better thematic place for the debuffs Acid provides exactly once, and it was not nearly the bulk of my argument. It was just an observation.

 

38 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

Imagine a blaster and a corruptor each lining up their bows to fire off their respective nets and trying the mental gymnastics necessary to justify the difference in power effects as they've been presented.

This would never happen. I really think you should re-read my post and positions in previous posts because I am one of the people most against entangling arrow being given -resistance due to thematic reasons, and stated it would be better off as -to hit. This will, however, not be rescinded anyway, and I made note of it here because while you were denouncing Acid Arrow for thematic discrepancies, I did not see any comments about your position on entangling arrow until now; I must have missed them. I know for a fact that this is an issue to precious little, though I am one of them, and Acid Arrows logic is far more agreeable having debuff res than entangling is having -resistance. Entangling having -def makes slightly more sense, but not enough performance to warrant the compromise in logic. 

 

38 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

and stick 10% of the AoE -res back into acid arrow, tweaking AA into a power which greatly inconveniences the hard target it hits, and slightly inconveniences those within splash range, all while remaining a comfortable and familiar power

People really don't want this. Much of the discussion about Trick Arrow has been actually condemning how Trick Arrows affects are everywhere; most desire one arrow for one task, and for these tasks to be easily determined...an arrow for everything. I personally don't care that much either way, but a quick look at this and other TA threads confirm this position.

 

38 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

Acid Arrow should be patterned after Poison/envenom, plain and simple.  It is congruent with all similar power effects.

That wouldn't necessarily make sense. Acid Arrow is acid of unknown variety, Poison/envenom are just toxins (of similarly unknown make). There is room for exploration.

38 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

Flash arrow: AoE -tohit (50% irresistable), single target chance for mag 2 stun (the guy hit by the arrow sure feels it, but chance for stun prevents easy stacking w beanbag/KO arrow)

Glue arrow: AoE slow, AoE -rech
Ice arrow: single target mag 3 hold, -rech, -special
Poison Gas arrow: AoE -dam, sleep
Acid arrow: single target -20% res, AoE -def, -heal, -regen?,  (OR single target -10% res, AoE -10% res, AoE -def, -heal)

Flash Arrow having chance to disorient isn't a bad idea. I like it. But it ruins the stealth of it. I think that a chance to hold in PGA would be a bit better. It definitely does not give anything to team-play to the extent acid arrow currently does, and the argument of "well there is already a lot of synergy in the game" being used to prevent Trick Arrow from gaining the ability to contribute to that (or actually have compatibility with the Primary/Secondary it's paired with) is a bad one. I feel it necessary to recognize this.

 

Using your phrasing, your argument boils down to "let's keep Trick Arrow bad because it makes more sense that way". Without acid arrow's new effect, none of your proposals help Trick Arrows survivability, or patch up the weaknesses that the set is known for (like organization of affects), and you want the changes solely for thematic logic.  You can make extrapolations and approximations of how these things would work, especially when it's for saving the performance of a weak set. It's a comic book game. I also think that when we do, they should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis the way we are now. Here is an example: Acid Arrow's origins are ambiguous, the current beta effects are better, alternatives are worst for the set currently in both solo and team play. It checks out. Entangling Arrow -res doesn't make much sense, the effects are currently better, alternatives exist. That one is iffy.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Monos King

[4th.survivor]

9 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I like most of your suggestions, except this one.

 

I do not want anything that could notify mobs on Flash Arrow. I understand it's only a single target effect, but I want to be able to debuff in peace from the shadows. 🙂

ahhh I forgot about that part, good catch.

[Monos King]

20 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Bosses and lts ritters with things like targeting drone, i think, also end up having +Res(-ToHit)

They do, but as I was saying, leaving the -to hit debuff resistance debuff to something that situational is a bit problematic. Sort of like benumb, which only shines in PvP and against AVs/GMs. Considering it is still very effective against minions (bulk of mobs) and AVs I wouldn't call it priority; the combination between new Flash and Acid has been doing wonders for my survivability at all levels, but if something can be done to fix it I'm gonna say it should be. 

[Captain Powerhouse]

By proxy, it also impacts EBs (most are downgraded AVs and retain their resistance powers.)

 

But i guess that's where the partially resistible, partially irresistible nature of Flash will come even more useful.