Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

Wavicle · October 28, 2020

26 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Necro is the real test.

Challenge accepted.

Luminara · October 28, 2020

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Only if it was also made Bigger. I shouldn't have to fire Glue twice on the same spawn unless I put it in the wrong place.

Kind of hard to miss anything with a 25' radius, though. I'm not aware of any critters which don't idle within a set distance from their central spawning point.

Wavicle · October 28, 2020

Just now, Luminara said:

Kind of hard to miss anything with a 25' radius, though. I'm not aware of any critters which don't idle within a set distance from their central spawning point.

Well, I don't Actually think it needs to be bigger. Just retain the ability to effect guys that walk into it.

If it was location based I could put it in the middle of the spawn. The fact that it requires a target is what is causing me to have a problem.

Soloing yesterday (level 20 or so, Defender) I was finding every couple of spawns I would miss a couple guys with it and that's when I first noticed they weren't being hit when they ran in.

Hew · October 28, 2020

4 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

Finally, got a partner today, fire/dm tanker. We tried out Inferno, easy at 4x8.

I even pulled Inferno aggro off him a couple of times. Due to all the debuff and AOE.

Inferno's toHit resistance is 90%, so Acid Arrow barely scratched that, but I did get the 18% un-resistable debuff.

OH HAI THERE!

Hahahaha that was such stupid fun.

4th.survivor · October 28, 2020

Appreciate your responses Luminara.

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

I'm saying that it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter if this net arrow has -Res and that net arrow has Energy damage that one over there has neither. Powers don't have to be directly comparable simply because they have similar graphics or names. That train left the station in 2003. There are so many powers that have been copied, slightly modified and re-introduced as new powers that it would take me a week to find and list all of them.

I'm not gonna ask someone to make a list of every single power that diverges from like powers in minor ways, but a good faith contribution to this line of reasoning would be finding one example of a power which diverges from its cousins in such a major way as the one we're talking about (entangling). This is not a slight modification to the power. Evidently, I don't think it's irrelevant, nor do I think you speak for all players, or even all the posters in this thread, when you say that train has left the station. You seized upon my example of electrified net arrow, which is the obvious comparison, so I'll work from that...

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

Electrified Net Arrow is a copy and modification of Entangling Arrow, which is a copy and modification of Web Grenade, which is a copy and modification of the base Immobilize power used for all blaster secondaries, controller/dominator primaries, etc. That's how powers have been designed and implemented in Co* since 2003. Entangling have -Res added as a secondary effect is just standard operating procedure for creating or reworking powers in Co*.

Where is it standard operating procedure to entirely change either the type or scale of the power effect when reformatting a power across AT's or into a different-yet-alike role? Furthermore, -res is not a very common secondary effect anywhere, and with the exception of sonic, is more often considered a primary effect. Electrified net arrow has a blaster scale -rech, and the damage from the electrified portion to make it "blasty." Web grenade has -rech. Toxic web grenade has -rech, and toxic DoT to again, make it "blasty." At some point, a decision was made to improve blaster secondaries so that they had a bigger impact (a decision which probably didn't go far enough, which is why they're up for another round at the same time we're discussing this, in a manner which is comprehensive and ideally, somewhat uniform). At which point 'web grenade' became 'toxic web grenade.' That's an example of a necessary change. A change of this scope to Entangling is not necessary anymore than a change to any of these other powers would be.

Without cataloguing an exhaustive list, -res is achieved through corroding armor, melting armor, fiery incarnate interfaces, various corrosive acids/poisons, armor piercing bullets, and the Sentinel inherent and Bane Spider surveillance, both of which touch on 'analyzing a target for weakness' in their own way. As of this change, you can also achieve this effect with a net, but only if you're a Defender, for reasons. Sonic based powers and armor piercing bullets are one of the few examples of powers which apply -res a secondary effect, which is why I offered "sonic arrow" as an example of a power that would make more sense under the proposed change. I didn't do this because I am advocating for a change to this power to be turned into sonic arrow, I am doing so to demonstrate why this is the wrong change for entangling arrow (to be clear, I am not suggesting we create a sonic arrow power).

I have attempted to offer concession to this in the sense that the secondary effect could be changed from -rech to -def under the new power description's rationale. This would even let you slot an achilles for a low chance to accomplish what the power now promises every time you fire it.

6 hours ago, Luminara said:

That is wrong. No sugar-coating, it's just wrong. TA was created two issues before corruptors or masterminds existed. It is and always has been, first and foremost, a defender primary. It was made and balanced for defenders. What controllers, corruptors and masterminds receive is a defender primary appropriately scaled by archetype modifiers, not the other way around.

Yes, yes. My equivocation to /TA secondaries was an attempt to abstract that current TA performs more at the level of a corruptor or mastermind secondary, rather than a defender primary. I gotta save word count somewhere, y'know 😛

6 hours ago, Luminara said:

So it doesn't really matter if you or I or anyone else thinks another power would be appropriate in place of Entangling. We have Entangling, we're always going to have Entangling. If the -Res is taken out of Entangling and crammed into another power, like back into Acid as a single-target effect on the primary target, it puts Entangling right back where it was before the change, a bad joke for every TA who can't skip it (everyone except defenders). It's at least moderately worthwhile this way, especially for the three archetypes who can't skip it, and that's miles ahead of where it stands on the servers now.

It's miles ahead alright. That's my objection. My proposal does put entangling back where it was before, an unfortunate choice for a tier 1 that Defenders are blessed to be able to skip, and that Corruptors/Controllers/Masterminds are thankful they have primaries to lean on until they unlock the power choices they presumably selected /TA for. You do make a good point here, which is that the power has no inherent value as a t1 immobilize, justifying the improvement of its secondary effect. Yes, it's hard to argue for the inherent value of a t1 single target immobilize. Yet, people roll blasters every day, and each of them is saddled with a power very similar to the power you describe. Many of them deal (trivial) damage besides. It seems that improving the secondary effect is the natural choice for the defender version, except the choice made in this case is the wrong one. Blasters take this choice in stride in their secondary, and as a Defender, you don't even have to do that. Sometimes a stinker is a blessing in disguise, because this is the space in my build that lets me consider the following, also very useful powers: hasten, maneuvers, assault, tactics, tough, weave, or selections from the medicine pool. There is value in having skippable powers, and not every situational power needs to have a grafted secondary effect out of line with itself, or if they do... then why should Trick Arrow be the golden child among device-themed t1 immobilizes?

The choice for me now is whether to nix assault or tactics in order to take advantage of the -20% res, when as a Defender I shouldn't even have to make this choice. A power being only situationally useful is still useful situationally, and so it rightly finds itself in the unenviable position of t1. Many PvPers choose to pick it up anyway, because that's an example of an environment where that situation is useful. Evidently you and I do not pvp often, and pvp balance is perhaps a laughable aside, but one which was introduced by CP in this thread when he mentioned pvp content was a consideration for the sets performance.

My point is: the power should be chosen on the basis of its primary effect, with consideration to its secondary effect. It's currently a power pretending to be another power, which players will pickup because its 'secondary' effect is actually an entirely different power.

6 hours ago, Luminara said:

I disagree. The whole point of different sets having different powers with different effects is to provide different experiences when playing. That's the core idea behind this game. No two sets play exactly alike. The addition of -Res to Entangling doesn't create dissonance, it creates differentiation.

This goes farther than differentiation. Call it what you want, its effects would fit better in a different set. Everyone who uses a net or a webnade has a foot in the door for asking for -res (and maybe that's fine, but I doubt there is consensus on this except perhaps among Trick Arrow players worried about being robbed of this). It would be more honest I think to say that as a TA player I am glad that this power effect is being deemed worth including in addition to the -40% resistance already on offer, but it's still correct to point out that it's been shoehorned into the wrong power.

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

Here's the problem with that - Entangling isn't going away. The original development team had what we refer to as "the cottage rule". You can look it up, but basically, it means powers aren't removed outright unless they're so drastically broken that they're unworkable and impossible to improve. Once something is in the game, it's in the game. @Captain Powerhouse is sticking to the cottage rule, so Entangling isn't going to be replaced by a different power. That means it has to have some value added to it, because it's pure, utter, unquestionably crap as it stands. Yes, it has some utility in the very early game, yes, it's useful for controllers to set up containment, but realistically, it's a bad fucking power that adds nothing worthwhile to the set. If I had my druthers, I'd rip it out and replace it with anything more useful. An arrow that fired cat poop and crashed the game would be more palatable, as far as I'm concerned. But it's in the set, we're stuck with it, and @Captain Powerhouse made an effort to give it some more utility and value by sticking an additional 20% -Res into it so TA players could have both a bonus to stack with Disruption and a reason not to despise the power with the entirety of their souls (yeah, i really hate it that much).

You quite rightly point this out, and it's a rule that my previous posts allude to when I concede that I'm not interested in discussing complete set redesigns. You're also right to bring it up where one of my main 'beefs' is set verisimilitude, since that's essentially one of the qualities the cottage rule is designed to preserve. You say that CP is sticking to the rule, even when he's breaking it in the case of entangling and strongly bending it in acid arrow. You can rewrite a power description and change an effect, but when every other power in the game that mimics that effect operates by a different (and coherent) set of rules, you are only paying lip service to it.

That doesn't mean Trick Arrow needs to be hidebound or consigned to mediocrity because it happened to draw many of its jack-of-all-trades effects from a specific list of dev choices fifteen years ago. I have outlined a way where the exact same changes currently being tested with approval by trick archers could be reassigned in such a way that the powers not only do what they do now, but they continue to do what they always have. I've faced more resistance to this from the community than I expected, I suspect because there is a fear this is some sort of teardown I'm doing in an effort to keep them from the buffs they badly need. That's... not my intention, or even an outcome of my suggestions.

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

I hear all of that and I'm completely on board. But I'm also approaching this from the perspective of someone who understands the mechanics, the limitations, the mindset of the original development teams, @Captain Powerhouse's thoughts and approach, and more. I don't have to exchange PMs with @Captain Powerhouse to understand why he did what he did, because I can look at the changes and it's obvious to me. I understand a lot of things, because dug into the mechanics with various characters, I tested and experimented, I spent years discussing these things with Castle, and I understand them better now than I did in the past (and if you know who i am, then you know i understood them pretty well back then).

you obviously do understand the mechanics of the game very well, I didn't address your breakdown of the first 60 seconds vs. an AV because it's quite thorough and I have no real rebuttals there. What you demonstrate well is that even if the changes don't do a perfect job of power consolidation, they still do a decent job of consolidating powers by virtue of trick arrow users having more time in their rotation to breath, assess, and contribute DPS, as well as accomplish more with fewer applications of powers even when new effects have been created to replace powers consolidated. Okay, although I still think that speaks more to the primary design goal of improving performance. Power consolidation to me means exactly that - where power effects are located. There is some good work done to this effect (disrupting), but it has some surprisingly lopsided elements, which I have spent a lot of words examining and which I think could be improved further still with minimal revision. Resistance to these ideas seems to be more along the lines of some other, unstated goal, which I'm going to label something like power parity. That every power should be worth taking for its own sake purely on its own basis.

I understand that power verisimilitude is subordinated to the stated design goals, and I've attempted to show that this has been unnecessary as a way to reintroduce it for consideration. But I don't know how to get through your notion that powers should be worth taking for their own sake when it's being conflated with the idea of improving performance. The unspoken 'goal' of power verisimilitude has been stated by you and others variously as irrelevant to the conversation, ie subordinate to the goal of improving performance and power consolidation, even as you explain the cottage rule which is itself an effort at maintaining power verisimilitude. If improving performance were the only goal, then devs could flatly increase the performance of numbers, or dissatisfied Trick Arrow players could roll any other well performing primary. The new mechanic appears to be a creative way to sidestep the poor performance of debuffs against high level/AV targets, in a way which counteracts their inbuilt immunity to these effects. In the process of building to that goal, verisimilitude has taken a hit while room has been made for this effect, which I believe is unecessary. As you point out, TA does have a theme, a theme which has inspired devoted loyalists despite its flaws, and a theme which deserves to be consistent across power changes. Verisimilitude supports that theme. I'm not suggesting these changes demolish it, but it does erode it in two cases, and in a way which is contrary even to one of the stated goals of the rework (power consolidation), in favour of power parity. I am not suggesting we abandon the efforts put in to date. I really do think this is a situation where we can have an arrow cake and get to eat it. But we do have to chose between perfect parity between powers, and verisimilitude. Honestly I prefer the latter.

Thanks for reading

KaizenSoze · October 28, 2020

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

Depends. If you are a full incarnate than you should be soloing missions pretty well regardless of your powerset combination. Certain sets like demons/cold, thugs/dark or bots/time are AV killers, and should be able to deal with above 50 AVs pretty well with or without Alpha. And then sets like mercs/ninjas are super squishy and are very good if they can take on an even level AV or survive +2 levels with no incarnates. An extremely good MM won't have any of their pets dying on them during x8 missions, but only like 3 or 4 combinations are capable of that and most of them are demons/thugs/bots.

So if you aren't an incarnate, your ninjas/TA is doing very good, which speaks highly to the TA improvements. When I was testing non-incarnate and was doing +2x5 Circle of Thorns and Carnies with only a few minion deaths, I would say that's pretty exceptional for a TA MM.

I turned off Incarnates. Things are a lot harder. More inline with what you're saying

Full incarnates, much easier.

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Necro is the real test.

Maybe tomorrow. 🙂

KaizenSoze · October 28, 2020

Bopper and Lines helped me test end draining.

Basically, if the mob has end drain resists, it's likely to be ~85% at 50.

One Acid Arrow will not be enough to overcome that. You need another TA partner.

So, no solo draining AVs. 😞

Edited October 28, 2020 by KaizenSoze

Vanden · October 28, 2020

8 hours ago, Luminara said:

TA was created two issues before corruptors or masterminds existed. It is and always has been, first and foremost, a defender primary. It was made and balanced for defenders.

I don't know about that. It really seems like it was originally conceived as a Controller primary and then half-heartedly converted to a Defender primary. It's got a single-target hold, AoE hold, single-target immobilize, knockdown patch, even Flash Arrow is just a clone of Smoke from Fire Control rather than an actual ToHit debuff power. That's more than half the set being powers you'd find in a Controller primary.

Luminara · October 29, 2020

1 hour ago, 4th.survivor said:

I'm not gonna ask someone to make a list of every single power that diverges from like powers in minor ways, but a good faith contribution to this line of reasoning would be finding one example of a power which diverges from its cousins in such a major way as the one we're talking about (entangling).

Only one?

Share Pain. Taken directly from Empathy, changed to deal damage to the caster and buff the caster's damage, and put into the Pain Domination set.

1 hour ago, 4th.survivor said:

This is not a slight modification to the power.

Is it still an Immobilize? Has the basic function of the power, immobilization of a single target, been changed to something it was not before? Does it teleport the caster into melee via use of quantum entangling instead of immobilizing a target? Does it summon dead sea turtles which were killed when they became entangled in a net, instead of immobilizing a target? Does it inflict a Hold by summoning a spider to entangle a target in webbing, instead of immobilizing a target?

No. It's still a single-target Immobilize. It has an additional effect, reducing that target's Resistance to damage, but that doesn't change what the power is.

1 hour ago, 4th.survivor said:

Evidently, I don't think it's irrelevant, nor do I think you speak for all players, or even all the posters in this thread, when you say that train has left the station.

I'm sorry, I wasn't implying that I, you or we players had stopped caring or asking, and I should have made that clearer. Whether or not we agree with the cottage rule, the simple fact is, this is the HC team's server group, not ours, and we're obligated to abide by their policies as long as we play here. And they want the cottage rule to remain in effect, according to what I read on the closed beta forums. That takes discussion of replacing or removing powers off of the table.

1 hour ago, 4th.survivor said:

Where is it standard operating procedure to entirely change either the type or scale of the power effect when reformatting a power across AT's or into a different-yet-alike role?

Everywhere in Co*. Every archetype has modifiers which alter powers, specifically to ensure that some archetypes are better at some things, and other archetypes aren't as good at those things, but better at others. Every archetype also has certain expectations from a development standpoint, which leads developers to change specific powers to make them "more suitable" for different archetypes. Every critter uses modified versions of powers available to players.

All of what you see as powers are just entries in tables. They're not hard-coded, they're lists and references. Cryptic and Paragon frequently took existing powers and tweaked them to make "new" powers, by doing little more than adding a new entry with references to specific power IDs, scales and effects. With some animations, which were recycled in many cases, and effects, which were comparatively simple to add to the animations, they've got "new" powers.

Fire Breath = Frost Breath = Bile Spray. Blackstar = Nova = Dreadful Wail = Psychic Wail. Dark Obliteration = Explosive Blast = Explosive Arrow = M30 Grenade = etc. Same powers, modified for different archetypes by removing or reducing some effects, adding or increasing others, and changing the particle effects and animations. You just happen to be here and noticed when it was happening to a power you're looking at, but it's happened over and over again throughout the life of the game. It's not a new thing.

2 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

Furthermore, -res is not a very common secondary effect anywhere, and with the exception of sonic, is more often considered a primary effect.

It's a little less common than -Def, but more common than -ToHit. It's not limited to specific archetypes, or specific types of attacks, it's scattered all over the place.

2 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

Electrified net arrow has a blaster scale -rech, and the damage from the electrified portion to make it "blasty." Web grenade has -rech. Toxic web grenade has -rech, and toxic DoT to again, make it "blasty." At some point, a decision was made to improve blaster secondaries so that they had a bigger impact (a decision which probably didn't go far enough, which is why they're up for another round at the same time we're discussing this, in a manner which is comprehensive and ideally, somewhat uniform). At which point 'web grenade' became 'toxic web grenade.' That's an example of a necessary change. A change of this scope to Entangling is not necessary anymore than a change to any of these other powers would be.

Damage being added to Entangling Arrow when TA was ported to blasters is exactly the same thing you're referring to with -Res being added for TA now. It's an effect which didn't exist before and which changed the usage of the power. By your explanation, that was wrong and should be reverted, as should all similar changes you mention. But if it's okay for blasters to have an effect which is pertinent to their role added to powers, then it should also be okay for defenders to have an effect which is pertinent to their role added to powers.

Either it's all wrong, or it's all right.

2 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

Without cataloguing an exhaustive list, -res is achieved through corroding armor, melting armor, fiery incarnate interfaces, various corrosive acids/poisons, armor piercing bullets, and the Sentinel inherent and Bane Spider surveillance, both of which touch on 'analyzing a target for weakness' in their own way.

Without being exhaustive, you left out radiation, negative energy, fists, knees, sticks, space guns, swords, being really cold, and an insane amount of other ways.

-Res is all over the place. Almost every archetype has access to it. There are even a few IOs which inflict -Res. -Res is not restricted to the chosen few, it's everywhere.

2 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

As of this change, you can also achieve this effect with a net, but only if you're a Defender, for reasons.

What? TA is available to corruptors, controllers and masterminds as well, and the only powers which aren't directly available are defender pseudo-pet powers which have to be specially modified for the relevant archetype and substituted for the defender originals. OSA, for example, has at least two versions currently in existence, one specifically for defenders, and one for everyone else. The defender OSA has defender scales, the other one has controller scales. Entangling Arrow is not a pseudo-pet power, it doesn't require special modification before it's proliferated to the other archetypes because the game does it automatically by reading the entries on the tables and making the adjustments itself.

All four archetypes have the same Entangling Arrow. The archetype scale modifiers alter the base stats for the power when other archetypes use it, but it's the same power. @KaizenSoze and @Monos King have already reported on using the set as non-defenders. Ask. Read the thread.

2 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

Sonic based powers and armor piercing bullets are one of the few examples of powers which apply -res a secondary effect, which is why I offered "sonic arrow" as an example of a power that would make more sense under the proposed change. I didn't do this because I am advocating for a change to this power to be turned into sonic arrow, I am doing so to demonstrate why this is the wrong change for entangling arrow (to be clear, I am not suggesting we create a sonic arrow power).

You're basing your suggestion on the misperception of -Res being highly restricted. It isn't. In the entire game, soup to nuts, there are only two archetypes which don't have access to -Res in a single power. Peacebringers and Warshades. Every other archetype has access to -Res in primaries, secondaries or *PPs. This isn't a secret debuff or a secondary effect locked away behind triple power-up combo moves that only work if you're using a specific set, it's common. Look at the different sets for the archetypes. Look at the powers. You can see just how prolific it is with a few minutes of mousing over powers in Mids'.

3 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

I have attempted to offer concession to this in the sense that the secondary effect could be changed from -rech to -def under the new power description's rationale. This would even let you slot an achilles for a low chance to accomplish what the power now promises every time you fire it.

You have yet to explain why any effect is objectionable or acceptable beyond your own rationalization of how things should work. You've also made some mistaken assumptions about how things do work, such as only defenders having Entangling with -Res, and -Res being limited in availability, and that means your rationalization may need to be re-assessed.

3 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

Yet, people roll blasters every day, and each of them is saddled with a power very similar to the power you describe. Many of them deal (trivial) damage besides. It seems that improving the secondary effect is the natural choice for the defender version, except the choice made in this case is the wrong one. Blasters take this choice in stride in their secondary, and as a Defender, you don't even have to do that. Sometimes a stinker is a blessing in disguise, because this is the space in my build that lets me consider the following, also very useful powers: hasten, maneuvers, assault, tactics, tough, weave, or selections from the medicine pool. There is value in having skippable powers, and not every situational power needs to have a grafted secondary effect out of line with itself, or if they do... then why should Trick Arrow be the golden child among device-themed t1 immobilizes?

You mean why should Entangling be better than Web Grenade, the only other T1 power in defender primaries which is an Immobilize?

Note that - THE ONLY OTHER ONE.

Also of note - Traps was created one issue after TA, and followed the same general design principle, including stealing the same Immob from /Devices.

But to directly answer your question, Entangling shouldn't be the golden child compared to Web Grenade. Web Grenade should have exactly the same treatment, a revision based on an assessment of the set as a whole and addition of an effect to make it better.

Furthermore, blasters have Immobilizes because blasters were originally the squishiest archetype in the game. They were debt magnets. Immobilizes were one of the few options they had for keeping enemies at range, or giving themselves time to move out of melee and pop an inspiration or use Aid Self. Immobilizes made sense for blaster secondaries in the context of what blasters were and how much they needed even a little control. Even a zero damage Immobilize was useful and usable for blasters because it helped them stay alive for a few more seconds, long enough to defeat whatever was smashing their faces in.

So you can't make that comparison of Entangling versus all other T1 Immobilizes because it's taking the entire discussion out of the context of what's relevant, nor does it work if you limit it to only T1 Immobs which you categorize as as device-themed. It doesn't matter if blaster secondary T1 Immobs are good or bad when we're looking at a defender primary T1. That's apples to boulders. Yeah, they're both roundish, but they're not the same. The only valid comparison you can make is to Web Grenade, and as I said, that should be buffed, too, as opposed to your express wish that Entangling be held back in order to maintain parity.

3 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

The choice for me now is whether to nix assault or tactics in order to take advantage of the -20% res, when as a Defender I shouldn't even have to make this choice.

You shouldn't have to make that choice on any archetype, because primary powers are always supposed to be better than secondary powers, which are always supposed to be better than pool powers. That you, that we, have had to rate a T1 pool power as a superior selection to one of our primary powers should be infuriating, not a pleasant relief. It's pissed me off for almost two decades. One of our core powers was so bad that any pool power was better. Junk Kick was better. Provoke was better than Entangling Arrow, for Christ's sake! At least that could hold some decent IOs. Entangling wasn't even good enough to be a mule. So for the worst power in our set to finally be better than pool powers, to finally be worth taking, to finally not be a frustration and disappointment when playing the other three archetypes, is not a bad thing, even if it means we have to revise our builds and plans.

3 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

My point is: the power should be chosen on the basis of its primary effect, with consideration to its secondary effect. It's currently a power pretending to be another power, which players will pickup because its 'secondary' effect is actually an entirely different power.

Do you really think scrappers take and use +Def (Melee, Lethal) attacks because they deal a lot of damage? They don't. The damage is crap compared to their other attacks, but the secondary effect, +Def (Melee, Lethal), is worth it, and the effect is definitely secondary to the primary purpose, dealing damage. Do you think people buy Throwing Knives from the P2W vendor because they really like the damage it deals? It's a source of -Regen, that's all that matters to them.

Just like -Res, the game is littered with powers like these, powers with a secondary effect more valuable to players than the primary effect. Why should Entangling be sent to the back of the bus, when it's no different from any other power with a more appealing effect than its base effect?

3 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

This goes farther than differentiation. Call it what you want, its effects would fit better in a different set.

In your opinion, which you've developed based on the belief that -Res only occurs in certain sets or powers or animations which explain why it can occur, the belief that this is a change exclusive to defenders, the belief that there are multiple T1 Immobs to which Entangling can be accurately and fairly compared. All of these are incorrect, and if those are incorrect...

4 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

but it's still correct to point out that it's been shoehorned into the wrong power.

In your opinion. I address that one paragraph above.

4 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

You say that CP is sticking to the rule, even when he's breaking it in the case of entangling

Yes or no, is Entangling Arrow still an Immobilization? If the answer is yes, then the cottage rule is not being broken.

4 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

and strongly bending it in acid arrow.

Acid Arrow still debuffs. Yes or no. See above.

4 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

You can rewrite a power description and change an effect, but when every other power in the game that mimics that effect operates by a different (and coherent) set of rules, you are only paying lip service to it.

No power is required to be identical to any other power, regardless of what the description says, the animation look like or what the power actually does. There's no rule, no design philosophy in place for that. None. Nothing, no developer, no GM, no unintentionally released memo, has ever said or inferred that any two powers have to be similar, much less identical. That is, in fact, the very opposite of everything in this game. Every development team went out of their way to make every power as unique and flavorful as they could, so players would have MORE choices, MORE differentiation, MORE ways to play the game. You have a narrow, almost singular view of how this is supposed to be, and please don't take this as hostility, but it's wrong. The fact that Entangling Arrow and the blaster version and Web Grenade and other powers happen to be similar is meaningless and irrelevant because they're not supposed to be clones of one another. That they happen to be functionally comparable isn't because they were intended to be, it's because Cryptic sold the game and walked away, Paragon never had the staff to revisit them, and no-one cared enough about them to do anything after the HC team picked up the reins, until now.

Sorry, I truly am, but that's specious and erroneous. I'm not trying to sound mean or antagonistic, I'm really not, but you don't seem to grasp what made this game the wonder that it is. Hundreds of costume pieces, power color and animation customization, those are just extensions of the base ideology that drove the game in the first place, that being that every power was in some way unique, had its own identity, had purpose within the set or pool, and Entangling just failed to live up to that ideology. And advocating leaving it dangling because it's... thematically similar to a blaster power and another defender power? That's going the opposite direction, turning this game into another WoW clone, where everyone in a class is identical.

No. Just... no.

4 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

That doesn't mean Trick Arrow needs to be hidebound or consigned to mediocrity because it happened to draw many of its jack-of-all-trades effects from a specific list of dev choices fifteen years ago. I have outlined a way where the exact same changes currently being tested with approval by trick archers could be reassigned in such a way that the powers not only do what they do now, but they continue to do what they always have. I've faced more resistance to this from the community than I expected, I suspect because there is a fear this is some sort of teardown I'm doing in an effort to keep them from the buffs they badly need. That's... not my intention, or even an outcome of my suggestions.

The resistance is because what's been done looks like it's working in the way it was intended to, giving us more time and freedom in how we use our powers. And we don't see a need to change things again, put everything on the back burner for another X months or Y years, because some people don't like which powers have which effects. It's not because we're afraid, it's because we just don't agree that something not making sense from someone's perspective is reason to send the whole thing back to the drawing board. Anything can be explained with a little imagination. Believe me, we've been coming up with explanations for head-scratchers in the game for as long as it's existed. When all else fails, we just refer to whatever doesn't make sense as a Nemesis plot.

Entangling having -Res is a Nemesis plot. Send it to the live servers.

4 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

the cottage rule which is itself an effort at maintaining power verisimilitude.

Up to a point. The cottage rule states that a power won't be removed and replaced, or completely redesigned to do something entirely different. It has nothing to do with adding an effect to a power, as long as the power's base functionality remains unchanged.

Yes or no, does Entangling Arrow Immobilize a single target? If the answer is yes, then the cottage rule has not been broken. Unlike the record I'm starting to sound like...

4 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

verisimilitude has taken a hit while room has been made for this effect, which I believe is unecessary.

And that's just an opinion. In my opinion, Acid debuffing things other than Resistance makes sense. I can explain it as a mild toxin, or a magical potion, or a mutagenic whatever, or a Nemesis plot, and not lose one wink of sleep. I can do the same for every power being changed, because the theoretical reason a power is doing whatever it does isn't in the game, it's in the player's mind. It always has and it always will be.

4 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

But we do have to chose between perfect parity between powers, and verisimilitude. Honestly I prefer the latter.

We can have both. The powers can be improved as @Captain Powerhouse has done, and we can explain them however we like because we're the authors of our stories, not the developers.

This is another misperception you've stated. It's not their job to explain why your mutant zombie from a science station orbiting Mars is using a magical bow and technological arrows, or how those arrows cause the effects they cause. That's on you. It's your character, it's your use of the powers, it's your story, it's your responsibility to create verisimilitude within your choices. You, not the developers. They make powers, you apply your logic to them to create verisimilitude. That's another of the core features of this game, we're not forced to accept that every time we apply -Res, it's because we used acid. My Acid Arrow might be lizard blood, or the compressed farts of frogs, or dollar store coffee, or a Nemesis plot. What yours is, that's up to you to decide and explain, because that's how it is in this game. That's one of the things that made it so memorable and beloved. That's why so many of us came back when we heard about it being available again. That's why we'll still be here until the servers are shut down again, and why we'll have copies of the server files so we can, if nothing else, continue to create our own verisimilitude on our laptops and desktops with our private Co* servers.

The freedom of imagination and expression that Cryptic, Paragon and now HC gave us is something we love. Love it with us, rather than fighting to make the game obey arbitrary rules about verisimilitude. Live your story as you see fit and let the developers concentrate on continuing to enable that.

Luminara · October 29, 2020

4 hours ago, Vanden said:

I don't know about that. It really seems like it was originally conceived as a Controller primary and then half-heartedly converted to a Defender primary. It's got a single-target hold, AoE hold, single-target immobilize, knockdown patch, even Flash Arrow is just a clone of Smoke from Fire Control rather than an actual ToHit debuff power. That's more than half the set being powers you'd find in a Controller primary.

The single-target hold wasn't unique to TA. Dark had Petrifying Gaze before TA was even a concept. Ice Arrow was based on the same Hold that was used for Ice Blast's two holds, Ice Control's single-target Hold, Petrifying Gaze, etc. Just an entry copied and tweaked.

The AoE was EMP, from Rad. He didn't even change the base stats, he just added an 80' range.

Entangling was Web Grenade.

Flash Arrow was Smoke Grenade from Devices. Which, technically, was also Smoke.

Glue was Snow Storm, turned into a PBAoE on a pseudo-pet, and tweaked to increase the Slow.

Disruption was from the unreleased, at that time, Sonic. Disruption Field on a stick.

PGA was new. New new, not sort of new but similar to a power that inspired it, new new.

Acid was new new, too.

OSA was new, but Castle felt it was justified because Sleet, Ice Storm and Freezing Rain had some similar effects. He spent the most time on OSA, making and connecting the different pseudo-pets.

Ice and Flash could, I suppose, be referred to as sort of controller-based, but since they were shared powers, not really. All of it really came from defender and blaster sets, and his intention was never to make a controller secondary, he just couldn't come up with enough ideas to flesh out the entire set, so he swiped what he needed. If NC had given the studio the resources they needed to hire enough staff, he would've gone back and made some revisions, but... *shrug*.

ABlueThingy · October 29, 2020

18 minutes ago, Luminara said:

[snip for space]

This was a lovely read and clearly comes from a place of great love for this game along with a deep understanding of it's history and why people play it. (Or at least why I do)

...But all I could think the whole time reading it was "WHY ARE THERE 500 IDENTICAL COPIES OF CALTROPS, WHO NEEDS THIS MANY TINY POINTY THINGS"

Luminara · October 29, 2020

1 minute ago, ABlueThingy said:

WHO NEEDS THIS MANY TINY POINTY THINGS

People who don't play TA or Archery.

Coyote · October 29, 2020

Lumi.... I think you one-shotted my ancestors back three generations with that Wall of Text. And it didn't even crit!

4th.survivor · October 29, 2020

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

What? TA is available to corruptors, controllers and masterminds as well, and the only powers which aren't directly available are defender pseudo-pet powers which have to be specially modified for the relevant archetype and substituted for the defender originals.

Yes, I misspoke and mentioned Defenders specifically when I meant to refer to Trick Arrow users generally.

You make your points well, but I stand by my position. There are themes within sets and there are themes across sets of related powers. Commonalities between device based powers is one such theme. The beta changes run counter to those themes, and it need not be so.

Thanks for your responses

Edited October 29, 2020 by 4th.survivor
that crucial missing word

Wavicle · October 29, 2020

1 hour ago, 4th.survivor said:

There are themes within sets and there are themes across sets of related powers. Commonalities between device based powers is one such theme. The beta changes run counter to those themes, and it need not be so.

Entangling Arrow's effect of slowing your enemies reactions now gives you openings to do extra damage.

Ice Arrow makes your enemy even colder than before.

Acid Arrow still debuffs resistance, it just debuffs resistance to debuffs instead of resistance to damage.

Disruption Arrow's sonic waves now fatigue your enemy in addition to eroding their resistance.

EMP now zaps both enemies and allies.

I don't see how any of those changes run counter to the theme.

Hew · October 29, 2020

6 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

This was a lovely read and clearly comes from a place of great love for this game along with a deep understanding of it's history and why people play it. (Or at least why I do)

...But all I could think the whole time reading it was "WHY ARE THERE 500 IDENTICAL COPIES OF CALTROPS, WHO NEEDS THIS MANY TINY POINTY THINGS"

Because you love those hands of artemis?

Wavicle · October 29, 2020

On 10/24/2020 at 5:38 AM, Jimmy said:

This is a Focused Feedback Thread

Please note that Focused Feedback threads are heavily moderated to ensure they remain on topic.
Any off-topic posts in these threads will be removed without warning.

The thread will be locked when no more feedback is required, but you are more than welcome to continue the discussion in a new thread.

The most up-to-date version of the changes will be listed in the first post.

The changes in each build will be posted as replies.
Changes from the previous build will be listed in green.

Any changes or fixes that are only relevant to the beta builds (as in, not changes relevant to the live version of the game) will be listed in blue.

Powerset Revamp: Trick Arrow

Trick Arrow has suffered with performance issues for a long time, primarily due to the strength of the debuffs against higher level enemies, but also due to redundancy between powers in the set. We've made a comprehensive suite of improvements, impacting almost every power in the set.

Power Changes (Numbers provided are Defender values)

Entangling Arrow
Immobilize duration reduced from scale 15 to scale 7

No longer has a -Recharge debuff

Now applies a 30s -Res debuff

Flash Arrow
Can now be slotted with Range enhancements

-ToHit increased from -6.25% to -15%
Half this debuff is now irresistible

Glue Arrow
-Recharge debuff increased from -20% to -40%

Debuff duration increased from 30s to 60s

Ice Arrow
Increased the -Recharge debuff from -12.% to 25%

Now applies a 60s -Special and -Damage debuff

Poison Gas Arrow
-Damage debuff now lasts 60 seconds

-Damage debuff increased from -31.25% to -50%
Half this debuff is now irresistible

Acid Arrow
Debuff radius increased from 8ft to 15ft (damage still has an 8ft radius)

-Res debuff moved to Disruption Arrow
This power still has a -25% defence debuff

Now applies a -heal resistance debuff (heals on the target will be less effective)
Halved in PvP

Now applies a -special resistance debuff (Endurance, ToHit, Regen, Recovery, Recharge Time, and Endurance Discount debuffs against the target will be stronger)

Debuff duration increased from 20s to 45s
20s in PvP

This power has a new icon

Disruption Arrow
Target cap increased from 10 to 16

Now applies a -MaxEnd debuff and takes Endurance Modification enhancements and sets

-Res debuff doubled (moved from Acid Arrow)

Only one Disruption Arrow can be maintained at once

Recharge decreased from 60s to 30s

Duration increased from 30s to 45s

Oil Slick Arrow
Can now be slotted with Range enhancements

EMP Arrow
Can now be slotted with Range enhancements

No longer applies -recovery to the caster

Half of the -regen debuff now lasts 45 seconds (previously the entire -regen debuff dropped off after 15 seconds, now only half of it does)

Hold duration for non-robots reduced by roughly 50%

This power now adds an ally buff to any ally or pet within the radius of the power (the caster is not affected)
15% damage resistance to all but Toxic (not enhanceable)

Resistance against End Drain and Recovery Debuffs

Protection against status effects and knock back

I love the changes. They correctly deemphasize the control aspects and improve the debuffing.

Entangling: now a very good debuff that you actually want, but that doesn't have to be spammed to be maintaned.
Flash: A powerful shield. Went from always skip to must have.

Glue: Stickier and Longer Lasting.

Ice: Good anti-mez, which is what we usually used it for anyway.

Poison Gas: Again, stronger and longer lasting.

Acid: Such a cool concept, and something really unique for the set, a Build Up for Debuffs.
Disruption: Bigger and more powerful.

Oil Slick: Still Oil Slick, slamming as ever.

EMP: No longer situational, now something you want to fire on cooldown, something you eagerly look forward to while levelling.

The ultimate debuffing set.

KaizenSoze · October 29, 2020

17 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Challenge accepted.

I made a TA/necro... give me my Ninjas back! Slotted with T4 incarnates, just like ninjas. I lost 1 lt and 3 zombies in a 4x8 council mission.

I lost one minion in two 4x8 missions, Council and CoT, with TA/ninja. I think the difference is the kill speed. Ninjas kill so much faster.

I did end up taking on two groups at once, twice. Flash Arrow allowed me to debuff the second group at range, which was probably the difference.

Note, I am not using the popular pet keyboard binds. I am clicking everything.

Build, it's a direct port of my TA/ninja, so it has all the same issues.

Spoiler

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Necromancy
Secondary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Zombie Horde -- OvrFrc-Dam/KB(A), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg(3), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg(3), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(5), SlbAll-Build%(7)
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- GrvAnc-Acc/Immob/Rchg(A)
Level 2: Flash Arrow -- DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb(A), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/Rchg(7), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(9), DarWtcDsp-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(9)
Level 4: Glue Arrow -- TmpRdn-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(A), TmpRdn-Acc/Slow(40), TmpRdn-Dmg/Slow(40), TmpRdn-Rng/Slow(40)
Level 6: Enchant Undead -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(15), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 10: Ice Arrow -- UnbCns-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(15), NrnSht-Dam%(17), Lck-%Hold(17), GldNet-Dam%(19), GhsWdwEmb-Hold/Rng(19)
Level 12: Grave Knight -- SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), SprMarofS-Dmg/EndRdx(21), SprMarofS-Acc/EndRdx(23), EdcoftheM-Dmg(23), EdcoftheM-PetDef(25)
Level 14: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 16: Poison Gas Arrow -- Acc-I(A)
Level 18: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(25), Ags-ResDam(27), Ags-Psi/Status(27), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(29), StdPrt-ResKB(29)
Level 20: Acid Arrow -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Ann-ResDeb%(31), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(31), ShlBrk-%Dam(31), TchofLadG-%Dam(33), AchHee-ResDeb%(33)
Level 22: Weave -- RedFrt-Def(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(33), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(34)
Level 24: Stealth -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(39)
Level 26: Lich -- SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprCmmoft-Rchg/PetAoEDef(36), SprMarofS-Dmg(36), SprMarofS-EndRdx/+Resist/+Regen(36)
Level 28: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Soul Extraction -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Dark Empowerment -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Oil Slick Arrow -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(37), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(37), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Rgn-Knock%(39)
Level 38: EMP Arrow -- SprEnt-Rchg/AbsorbProc(A), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End/Rchg(42), SprEnt-Acc/Hold(43), SprEnt-Hold/Rchg(43), SprEnt-End/Rchg(43), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End(46)
Level 41: Maneuvers -- Rct-ResDam%(A), Rct-Def(42), Rct-Def/EndRdx(42)
Level 44: Web Envelope -- TraoftheH-Acc/Rchg(A), TraoftheH-EndRdx/Immob(45), TraoftheH-Acc/EndRdx(45), TraoftheH-Immob/Acc(45)
Level 47: Mace Beam Volley -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(48), ExpStr-Dam%(48), PstBls-Dam%(48), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(50), Bmbdmt-Dam(50)
Level 49: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(11), Mrc-Rcvry+(11), Prv-Absorb%(46)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed(A), SynSck-EndMod(13), PrfShf-End%(13)
Level 1: Zombie
Level 12: Grave Knight
Level 26: Lich
------------

Edited October 29, 2020 by KaizenSoze

Luminara · October 29, 2020

6 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

Yes, I misspoke and mentioned Defenders specifically when I meant to refer to Trick Arrow users generally.

Nature and Sonic T1. Dark and Poison T2, AoE. Four other sets with access to -Res by level 2 at the very latest (corruptors, controllers and masterminds), two of which are AoE, and all of which not only have stronger -Res than this version of Entangling, but also have other effects which are both more powerful and more desirable than a single-target Immob.

6 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

There are themes within sets and there are themes across sets of related powers. Commonalities between device based powers is one such theme.

The problem here is that you're conflating similarities between different sets with intentional common ground, while also ignoring differentiation between sets where it doesn't fit the concept of thematic identity. If you were correct, every tier would have identical effects across all of the thematically similar sets. They don't.

TA and Traps both have a T1 Immob, but after that, they go off in separate directions, each having a distinct identity resulting from different powers, or different tiers of availability in superficially similar powers.

Six of the available 13 sets have an AoE heal in the T1. Are they all "healer" sets? Is Kinetics a healing set? Is Radiation Emission? Absolutely not, they diversify in a variety of ways, even within those T1s. In fact, only one of those six has a focus on healing, because, despite being superficially similar to other sets, they're all distinct from one another.

If bullets can reduce resistance, thematically, according to you, why doesn't Assault Rifle have -Res? I have a blade on my Staff/WP brute's staff, and blades thematically cause Lethal damage, but all of my attacks deal Smashing damage. If guns, grenades and arrows are an acceptable method of applying -Res, why don't all guns, grenades and arrows apply -Res? Where's the -Res in Archery, if this is the case? If some grenades cause knockback, be they fired from an over-under launcher on a rifle or from a bow, why don't all grenades cause knockback, if they're intended to share a common theme?

You've created your own verisimilitude with this. That's awesome. I mean that, it's absolutely fantastic. That's exactly what we're supposed to be doing in Co*, it's exactly how the game was designed. But it's your verisimilitude. Yours. Not mine. Not @Wavicle's. Not @Trickshooter's. Not @Tater Todd's. Not anyone else's. It belongs to you, exclusively. No-one's verisimilitude is the same, we each have our own. We all use our imagination to tell our own stories and make everything fit. There is no picture on the top of the jigsaw puzzle box, there's just the puzzle pieces, and no right or wrong way to put them together. That's what makes our characters, our stories, so precious to us. That's what made the game so memorable, so deeply loved, that we're here again, eight years after shutdown, playing on servers operated and maintained by other people who loved it in the same way and for the same reasons, and love it so much that they give up their free time, time they could spend with their families and friends, time they could spend pursuing other hobbies, time they could spend unwinding from their real jobs, to keep working on it, fixing bugs, adding features, making new things for us to add to our stories and fit into our wildly varying verisimilitudes.

It's up to you to make sense of what's in the game as it fits into your story, because it's your story. Your imagination is limitless, and this game gives you the freedom to roam as far and wide as you care to, to discover just how vast and complex that limitlessness really is. Run with it, and if you can't come up with a better explanation for the changes that don't fit within the verisimilitude you've created for yourself... go find Nemesis and beat the answers out of him. 😉

Legionette's staff doesn't cause Lethal damage, by the way, because she blunts the edge and point. She's just trying to prove that she's not weak or tremulous, not murder everyone she runs into. Verisimilitude, mine.

Luminara · October 29, 2020

11 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I made a TA/necro... give me my Ninjas back! With T4 incarnates, just like ninjas, I lost 1 lt and 3 zombies in a 4x8 council mission.

I did end up taking on two groups at once, twice. Flash Arrow allowed me to debuff the second group at range, which was probably the difference.

Note, I am not using the popular pet keyboard binds. I am clicking everything.

Build, it's a direct port of my TA/ninja, so it has all the same issues.

Reveal hidden contents

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Necromancy
Secondary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Zombie Horde -- OvrFrc-Dam/KB(A), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg(3), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg(3), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(5), SlbAll-Build%(7)
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- GrvAnc-Acc/Immob/Rchg(A)
Level 2: Flash Arrow -- DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb(A), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/Rchg(7), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(9), DarWtcDsp-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(9)
Level 4: Glue Arrow -- TmpRdn-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(A), TmpRdn-Acc/Slow(40), TmpRdn-Dmg/Slow(40), TmpRdn-Rng/Slow(40)
Level 6: Enchant Undead -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(15), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 10: Ice Arrow -- UnbCns-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(15), NrnSht-Dam%(17), Lck-%Hold(17), GldNet-Dam%(19), GhsWdwEmb-Hold/Rng(19)
Level 12: Grave Knight -- SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), SprMarofS-Dmg/EndRdx(21), SprMarofS-Acc/EndRdx(23), EdcoftheM-Dmg(23), EdcoftheM-PetDef(25)
Level 14: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 16: Poison Gas Arrow -- Acc-I(A)
Level 18: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(25), Ags-ResDam(27), Ags-Psi/Status(27), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(29), StdPrt-ResKB(29)
Level 20: Acid Arrow -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Ann-ResDeb%(31), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(31), ShlBrk-%Dam(31), TchofLadG-%Dam(33), AchHee-ResDeb%(33)
Level 22: Weave -- RedFrt-Def(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(33), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(34)
Level 24: Stealth -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(39)
Level 26: Lich -- SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprCmmoft-Rchg/PetAoEDef(36), SprMarofS-Dmg(36), SprMarofS-EndRdx/+Resist/+Regen(36)
Level 28: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Soul Extraction -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Dark Empowerment -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Oil Slick Arrow -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(37), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(37), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Rgn-Knock%(39)
Level 38: EMP Arrow -- SprEnt-Rchg/AbsorbProc(A), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End/Rchg(42), SprEnt-Acc/Hold(43), SprEnt-Hold/Rchg(43), SprEnt-End/Rchg(43), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End(46)
Level 41: Maneuvers -- Rct-ResDam%(A), Rct-Def(42), Rct-Def/EndRdx(42)
Level 44: Web Envelope -- TraoftheH-Acc/Rchg(A), TraoftheH-EndRdx/Immob(45), TraoftheH-Acc/EndRdx(45), TraoftheH-Immob/Acc(45)
Level 47: Mace Beam Volley -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(48), ExpStr-Dam%(48), PstBls-Dam%(48), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(50), Bmbdmt-Dam(50)
Level 49: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(11), Mrc-Rcvry+(11), Prv-Absorb%(46)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed(A), SynSck-EndMod(13), PrfShf-End%(13)
Level 1: Zombie
Level 12: Grave Knight
Level 26: Lich
------------

My understanding of Necro/TA prior to the changes was that everything was hard mode, and your henchcorpses died if there was a stiff breeze. @Redlynne has expounded on the awfulness of Necro/TA, at length and quite descriptively, numerous times. I think this is the best indicator of what the changes have accomplished, and definitely a notable improvement. What problems did you feel you were still experiencing? Were there any moments, other than the two group aggro, that stood out for you? Was it a tedious slog, or a rapid pace, or something in between? Give us your thoughts on the experience.

Trickshooter · October 29, 2020

17 hours ago, Vanden said:

I don't know about that. It really seems like it was originally conceived as a Controller primary and then half-heartedly converted to a Defender primary. It's got a single-target hold, AoE hold, single-target immobilize, knockdown patch, even Flash Arrow is just a clone of Smoke from Fire Control rather than an actual ToHit debuff power. That's more than half the set being powers you'd find in a Controller primary.

If I had to guess, I'd say it was originally designed with the idea that Controllers weren't going to get it because it was control-heavy, like Dark Miasma (and possibly because it didn't really have any thematic pairing with Controller powersets). But then some higher-up decided that creating a NEW powerset, especially one with totally new art assets and animatons, wasn't a good use of company resources if it was only going to be available to one archetype. That sort of thing happened very infrequently outside of new primaries for Masterminds (which, let's be honest, were still very infrequent).

KaizenSoze · October 29, 2020

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

My understanding of Necro/TA prior to the changes was that everything was hard mode, and your henchcorpses died if there was a stiff breeze. @Redlynne has expounded on the awfulness of Necro/TA, at length and quite descriptively, numerous times. I think this is the best indicator of what the changes have accomplished, and definitely a notable improvement. What problems did you feel you were still experiencing? Were there any moments, other than the two group aggro, that stood out for you? Was it a tedious slog, or a rapid pace, or something in between? Give us your thoughts on the experience.

Ah, I didn't realize that necro/TA with the bottom of the barrel.

Cons:

Slower kill rate, not horrible just very noticeable compared to ninja

Pets, especially zombies, took more damage every fight.

I was losing a minion every 2-3 fights. Often zombies were down 30-50% health each fight.

I think this could have been prevented if I keep better control of the pets

Pros, there are some:

Slower pets mean less accidental aggro. The two mult-group fights had more to with the map layout than pets chasing mobs

Better crowd control, between TA and the Lich

So, if nerco/TA is supposed to be horrible, it's now decent-good even in my inept hands.

An example fight, 54 4x8 council. Two groups with a small gap.

Flash Arrow both groups, run in with pets on passive, Acid Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow, Pets set to aggressive, Disruption Arrow, Oil Slick Arrow.

Council will often set OSA with their grenades, but not this time. So, I step back and fire Mace Beam Volley to ignite it.

The second group has still not aggro'ed.

Ten or so second later I feel that the first group is under control. OSA is KDing and burning away.

I see that an zombie has aggro'ed one mob in the second group. I FA the second group again and Ion Judgement.

Start debuff cycle on the second group, AA, PSA, move the DA to a point covering both groups.

For that point it's lt and boss cleanup mode with Ice Arrow and AA which has procs.

Chase down the runners and done. I think I lost one minion.

Edited October 29, 2020 by KaizenSoze

Luminara · October 29, 2020

31 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Ah, I didn't realize that necro/TA with the bottom of the barrel.

My fault, I should have made it clear that I was asking for that reason, rather than because I take pleasure in the feel of cold, rotting flesh rubbing up against mine, heady with the scent of decay and formaldehyde.

I mean, I don't. Like it. That. It. NOT that there's anything wrong with that. Just not my thing. I'm not judging, I'm just saying, ew.

😶

KaizenSoze · October 29, 2020

9 minutes ago, Luminara said:

My fault, I should have made it clear that I was asking for that reason, rather than because I take pleasure in the feel of cold, rotting flesh rubbing up against mine, heady with the scent of decay and formaldehyde.

I mean, I don't. Like it. That. It. NOT that there's anything wrong with that. Just not my thing. I'm not judging, I'm just saying, ew.

😶

This a no judgement zone, except for Ion.

I guessed necro/ta was bad, just didn't realize it was rant worthy bad.

Did my description give you an idea of the difference the TA changes made? I would happy to demonstrate on the brainstorm server.

Note, I used T4 Intuition Radial to get the -tohit as high as possible. You have to four slot and use Intuition to get the FA to apply 18% -tohit.

Rejolt · October 29, 2020

19 hours ago, Vanden said:

I don't know about that. It really seems like it was originally conceived as a Controller primary and then half-heartedly converted to a Defender primary. It's got a single-target hold, AoE hold, single-target immobilize, knockdown patch, even Flash Arrow is just a clone of Smoke from Fire Control rather than an actual ToHit debuff power. That's more than half the set being powers you'd find in a Controller primary.

Where's my Talking Quiver pet?

EDIT: I like the TA changes but I need to act like it's a completely new set so I can readjust my thinking/how I've played it to now.

I still don't know If I like Poison Gas Arrow. It feels like that should have had the -heal. The pulsing sleep makes me want to try it with Static Field to see if they stack.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Rejolt
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