Focused Feedback: Teleportation Pool Revamp

[arkieboy72472]

More practice in Cimeroa, which is as good as spot as any to practice:

 

Brought out my pimped out corr Beam/Traps ala Bounty Hunter. Spec'd into fold space so I chose to drop Aim, Super Speed, and Burnout.

 

If you are like me, this new power allows you to play at your own pace optimally, especially solo. It makes even Time Bomb good again, with a caveat.

 

My normal routine was to drop Caltrops, acid mortar, Poison gas, trip mine, then time bomb. If you do time bomb before fold space, you have 2 maybe 3 seconds to fold them in as a window. The time bomb animation is wonky and time starts before you are done. While you can toe-bomb bad guys stealthy with trip mine, time bomb takes to long to allow this.

 

Anyways, i was solo +2/8 in cim and just trip and time bombs alone were enough to almost finish off everything (a normal +2 group). I would have a red con prefectice (big dudes whatever they were called...)with a bit of health. For any Traps player, I highly suggest getting stealth in your travel power like CJ, SS, or Hover (along with that LotG proc). The distance required to effectively fold people into your area isnt or is barely far enough to avoid being seen. SS really helps as it drops "threat level."

 

Also, i recommend for the sake of survival that on a non-tank or brute, have your def be about 30% or something good for positional/non-positional. Anyhow, I have found all fold space needs is a ACC or two and a RECH. When I didn't have time bomb up, I would just trip mine, lay down all my debufs, and fold them in. My incarnate void judgement OR Beam nuke plus time bomb would kill all minions and LT's. If you play +3 or +4, you may have to adjust as having everything laid out and ready won't be enough, but at +2 it will (for solo that is). What really helps is having acid mortar, caltrops, and poison gas with procs. Caltops and poison are your mitigation. A running or vomiting target doesn't attack. The beam rifle can handle the rest. Time bomb is great again!, but needs a tiny tweak maybe to adjust the animation / countdown. Have fold in que once you start, or you miss the window. The 5 second countdown starts before you can do anything about it. Forget time bombs while in combat or on a team just about. Bad idea.

 

Also, i know some of you love the Force Feedback +recharge proc in trip mine for that big 5 second buff of 100% that is almost guaranteed to go off, but you may wanna consider a KB to KD proc. I don't have one, since KB is mitigation also, BUT this knocks them out of your kill zone you made. So, if they survive you lose out. Time bomb is even worse about KB it seems. I HIGHLY recommend the Overwhelming KB to KD proc in it for extra damage. I have both powers with a 5 slot of Obliteration. Again, if time bomb is down, you can trip mine plus your 'trops/acid/poison combo and finish off stragglers with beam or judgement nuke. Pulling into your set up still works, but folding is more convenient and in some cases better.

 

Again, it helps to have stealth....which leads me to another point or two. Turning on stealth may kill some of those damage and taunt auras now. Judging the distance needed is hard but can be done with practice and takes time. You want fold to hit and pull. You DON'T want the mortar tagging people accidentally. You DON'T want to be seen. I will say pulling it all off is very, very rewarding...then doing it all again. Big Damn Explosions. It is totally some snails pace plodding and killing, as it was before. You knell a lot. It is slow. People will not want to allow you to do this in a team. It is a warm and cuddly grind you have to embrace. Learn to love procs. Fold Space is a quality of life asset now. In some instances i didn't need to target anyone for fold and it will sometimes grab either extras you didn't expect or not enough to count....Especially in caves. Especially if the accuracy misses. Just wait and try again, right?

 

At least in Devices, you get a buffed gun drone and stealth built in. You miss the debuffs and crappy +regen power, but you gain stealth and a pet or two. As a tank or brute, who cares if they see you. Once the aura and taunts take hold, just wreck face. As a controller, you better find ways to mitigate the alpha. It isn't a game breaking power but with creativity it can be a quality of life one. Hoping into a group and folding in a second one is a farmers dream.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by arkieboy72472

[dtj714]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

But that Isn’t the argument. LRTP doesn’t suck, it’s just not something that should be a pool power.

Uh, that’s exactly the argument. Look at Jimmy’s post and the other posts in this thread. They’ve taken a pool power that was a “waste” and made it into the go-to power for inter-zone travel, for everybody. That’s inherently contradictory.

[ABlueThingy]

19 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

Uh, that’s exactly the argument. Look at Jimmy’s post and the other posts in this thread. They’ve taken a pool power that was a “waste” and made it into the go-to power for inter-zone travel, for everybody. That’s inherently contradictory.

No, that's not quite what was said.  It is a waste of a power...to spend your limited picks on.  You only have... what, 22?  20-something power choices.  LRTP is a waste of 1/20th of your potential power picks.

 

It's not that it's not good, per say, it's that almost any other power choice would be better.  Picking up Assault or CJ or Air Sup or even Group TP would get you better returns. They're either a flat buff to some stat or have some niche use or expand your in combat options.  Even Group Teleport is something that can't be replicated by a hand full of temp powers.  Even if it's not useful OFTEN it's still the only thing that does what it does.

 

In the few situations that LRTP would be nice to have you have other choices at are 90% as good.  It's a trap choice.  It would be like the final power in Super Speed being an alt-animation sprint.  Ok, kinda cool and thematic... but a mechanical waste  You already get a version of that for free.  And with a bit of effort there's even better versions already in game.

 

[Koopak]

3 hours ago, dtj714 said:

The rationale goes like this - LRTP sucks so we’re going to remove it from the TP pool, but we don’t really want to remove altogether so we’re going to put it in as an accolade for those that really like/want it (see Jimmy’s post in the general travel thread). With what they’ve done now, that rationale evaporates. 
 

I’m not saying others shouldn’t have fast travel - they can and do with all the other improvements made. But if you improve a power in line with its exact purpose and function, then it’s overall fit within the game should remain, not be turned on it’s head. 

I maintain that no ammount of 'buffs' to cast speed, recharge time, or destination list makes LRTP stop sucking in the context of a pool power pick

[dtj714]

36 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

No, that's not quite what was said.  It is a waste of a power...to spend your limited picks on.  You only have... what, 22?  20-something power choices.  LRTP is a waste of 1/20th of your potential power picks.

As it was maybe. As it would be if equal to the new accolade - nope.
 

39 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

t's not that it's not good, per say, it's that almost any other power choice would be better... Even Group Teleport is something that can't be replicated by a hand full of temp powers.  Even if it's not useful OFTEN it's still the only thing that does what it does.

What other power, temp or otherwise, provides direct inter-zone travel on short CD (besides mission specific)?  Again, as it was, it could be argued that lots of alternatives were just as good if not better. As they’ve shown it could be, there is no equivalent. 

 

42 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

In the few situations that LRTP would be nice to have you have other choices at are 90% as good.  It's a trap choice.

Not anymore. The accolade will be the go-to inter-zone power, only being bypassed when on CD or a door power is applicable and ready. 

[dtj714]

11 minutes ago, Koopak said:

I maintain that no ammount of 'buffs' to cast speed, recharge time, or destination list makes LRTP stop sucking in the context of a pool power pick

But it’s freakin awesome as an accolade, right?

[Koopak]

6 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

But it’s freakin awesome as an accolade, right?

Its alright, i'll pick it up for the animation at most. I get your attempt to imply that its just bias or whatever but meh? If they got rid of it, entirely, id be mildly annoyed at most.

[ForeverLaxx]

I'm going to be the "weird guy" here and say Combat Teleport could probably have both a ToHit and Defense component. Either effect works as a thematic choice but if the bonus is small enough on each I think it can have both without being a balance issue (and if it is, just make the effect unstackable). While it's true that this would basically make it "yet another defense/LotG proc mule" I don't see why that's necessarily a problem. Superspeed sort of gets around this issue because of Hasten, but Fly and Super Jump (especially SJ) get picked specifically because of their ability to jam in LotG procs on their introductory powers (and Fly even gets to have two of them should you get Afterburner).

 

Giving Teleport a way to provide this same benefit, like the other OG travel pools, adds some parity to what is the clunkiest, most unwieldy, and thematically cool mode of travel. Teleport, and Combat Teleport especially, already come with a near-requirement of the usage of binds or macros to actually use them effectively... I say just throw them this bone so people who want to teleport aren't also forced into more travel pools for easy LotG proc access.

[capricorpse]

47 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I'm going to be the "weird guy" here and say Combat Teleport could probably have both a ToHit and Defense component. Either effect works as a thematic choice but if the bonus is small enough on each I think it can have both without being a balance issue (and if it is, just make the effect unstackable). While it's true that this would basically make it "yet another defense/LotG proc mule" I don't see why that's necessarily a problem. Superspeed sort of gets around this issue because of Hasten, but Fly and Super Jump (especially SJ) get picked specifically because of their ability to jam in LotG procs on their introductory powers (and Fly even gets to have two of them should you get Afterburner).

 

Giving Teleport a way to provide this same benefit, like the other OG travel pools, adds some parity to what is the clunkiest, most unwieldy, and thematically cool mode of travel. Teleport, and Combat Teleport especially, already come with a near-requirement of the usage of binds or macros to actually use them effectively... I say just throw them this bone so people who want to teleport aren't also forced into more travel pools for easy LotG proc access.

this would be great!  and I'd be ok with it not stacking.  I would just worry that having both buffs would make the devs want to alter the fundamental mechanics of the power, like activation time or recharge, to compensate.  It needs to stay quick and light, even if the buffs aren't super competitive.  

[Koopak]

45 minutes ago, capricorpse said:

this would be great!  and I'd be ok with it not stacking.  I would just worry that having both buffs would make the devs want to alter the fundamental mechanics of the power, like activation time or recharge, to compensate.  It needs to stay quick and light, even if the buffs aren't super competitive.  

Agreed, as long as the basic mechanics arent messed with, any stat changes are fine by me as long as they dont ever cause the rest of the power's properties to be changed

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, Wavicle said:

But that Isn’t the argument. LRTP doesn’t suck, it’s just not something that should be a pool power.

Quoted for emphasis.

 

Fold Space is a much more suitable pool power than Long Range Teleport ever was.

[ScarySai]

I put fold space on my ice/time, it's the dumbest thing ever and I love it.

 

If it taunted, I could get a lot of mileage out of it on my shade. >.>

 

Fire/psi testing next, I imagine it will be the dumbest of them all in the best possible way.

[Koopak]

18 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

Firstly, Jimmy and his crew *ARE* the devs now.

Secondly, the "intent and vision" of the original devs should absolutely *NOT* be respected.  Not that there was anything wrong with it, but it was the intent and vision of more than 15 years ago.  MMO's have moved forward.  This game has moved forward.  Player expectations have changed.  There is no stasis in nature or gaming.  There is either growth or decay.

While overstated perhaps i agree with this. If you asked the original devs, or the devs from just before shutdown what should be done today? You'd get a different answer than what they would have said when the game was life. and you'd get a different answer from each team with members of the team disagreeding. Even as late as the AMAs the devs expressed differing opinions. So seriously "respect the intent of the original devs" is a crap excuse especially since there are huge differences in philosophy between the live maintenance team and cryptics dev team.

[ABlueThingy]

4 hours ago, dtj714 said:

What other power, temp or otherwise, provides direct inter-zone travel on short CD (besides mission specific)?  Again, as it was, it could be argued that lots of alternatives were just as good if not better. As they’ve shown it could be, there is no equivalent. 

I have my regular travel power, the tram line, the wormhole system, Inter-zone Doors, Base Portals, Oro Portal, Pocket D, Mission TP, WW TP... etc, etc, and so forth.

 

I get all that with minimal effort, why would I also want to spend a power choice on LRTP?  If I didn't have it, I would instead use one of the million other options I get without costing me a power slot.  A power slot that only, sometimes, saves me a minute of travel?  When I could pick up Stealth and stack that with Combat TP to skip huge chunks of missions, saving me far more time in both the short and long run.  Or hover and get my build over the def soft cap.  Or-- any of the other dozen powers open to you that would be a better choice.

 

 

4 hours ago, dtj714 said:

Not anymore. The accolade will be the go-to inter-zone power, only being bypassed when on CD or a door power is applicable and ready. 

If you have the zone unlocked, sure.  Why not.  It's free.  If you don't have that zone unlocked... no big loss.  It doesn't make that big a difference.  Again, not big enough to warrant a whole power slot.

 

It's not useful or strong enough to be a primary power or a secondary power.  It's not useful or strong enough to qualify as a pool power. It's a nice temp power. It's a mid-teir accolade.  It saves you a few extra clicks. One or two 30 second loading screens.  It may or may not drop you near the mission.  That's fine.

 

Like, I get why you want it.  It's super thematic for a teleporter or space manipulator or shadow wizard or what have you.  The ability to easily and simply bop to a zone is part of the power fantasy of some characters.  That's why I'm going out of my way to get this accolade on a number of characters.

 

But the options we've been presented are LRTP or Fold Space. Fold Space does something that no other power does and options up new thematic options.  LRTP staying in a pool power doesn't.  Fold Space makes interesting plays for tanks to suck people in, for Blasters to set up prior to nova or scrappers to instantly saturate their toggle.  Now TP isn't just for squishies/support to hang back and help move allies or slowly pull foes.  With Combat Teleport and Fold Space there's room for melee and tank teleporters mixing it up using teleport powers as part of the fight.

 

LRTP just makes you, what, 20% better at zoning then some of your allies?  Assuming one of them didn't just take the tram and beat you there because they happened to at the WW in Talos and had easy access to 3/4ths of the zones from there?  Or at their base checking storage.  Or just finished a CC in Atlas and took two super leaps to get to the tram/wormhole acess(or half that to get to a base porter).

[arkieboy72472]

Tried fold space on an AR/DEV blaster. Yea, that sucked. Due to unforeseen differences in the way powers work, plus the way sheer damage doesn't outdo debuffs and DoT. See, the blaster Time Bomb goes off much sooner and the animation is faster. If fold space isn't qued right after time bomb, it will blow up prior. Even then, it is tricky. While trip mine activation is much faster and less interruptible, the damage is crap compared to Corruptors, probably because of all of the debuffs. Also, caltrops does a lot of more damage, but seems to last not as long. All in All, I believe Fold Space is just better on a traps player than devices particularly corr over defender. I play my AR/Dev blaster as a "master of cones" where I have almost maxed out range (as much as possible). I only care about range defense on her, so folding people into her is counter intuitive. Bad guys just die before they get to me. My play-testing tonight showed that. Where as my corr never died if i took my time, my pimped out blaster was fresh meat often with the same play style and slotting. Maybe with a different player or different slotting or primary things would be different, but i doubt it (Maybe used with Ice Blast...). I will say that Bonfire 6 slotted with ragnarok + KB to KD improves survival with caltrops also. Still, corr scourge plus debuffs just picks off more bad guys than I realized. Now, you all go back to bitching about a needless power no one ever used! Thanks.

Edited November 2, 2020 by arkieboy72472

[Koopak]

16 minutes ago, arkieboy72472 said:

Tried fold space on an AR/DEV blaster. Yea, that sucked. Due to unforeseen differences in the way powers work, plus the way sheer damage doesn't outdo debuffs and DoT. See, the blaster Time Bomb goes off much sooner and the animation is faster. If fold space isn't qued right after time bomb, it will blow up prior. Even then it is tricky. While trip mine activation is much faster and less interruptible, the damage is crap compared to Corruptors, probably because of all of the debuffs. Also, caltrops does a lot of more damage but seems to last not as long. All in All, I believe Fold Space is just better on a traps player than devices. I play my AR/Dev blaster as a master of cones where I have almost maxed out range as much as possible. I only care about range defense on her, so folding people into her is counter intuitive and my play-testing tonight showed that. Where as my corr never died if i took my time, my pimped out blaster was fresh meat often with the same play style. Maybe with a different player or different slotting or primary things would be different. (like Ice Blast for sure...) I will say that Bonfire 6 slotted with ragnarok + KB to KD improves survival with caltrops also. Still, corr scourge plus debuffs just picks off more bad guys than I realized. Now, you all go back to bitching about a needless power no one ever used! Thanks.

Thank you for answering the real questions 🤣 Ill have to do some testing of some ideas i ahve

[Wavicle]

12 minutes ago, arkieboy72472 said:

Tried fold space on an AR/DEV blaster. Yea, that sucked. Due to unforeseen differences in the way powers work, plus the way sheer damage doesn't outdo debuffs and DoT. See, the blaster Time Bomb goes off much sooner and the animation is faster. If fold space isn't qued right after time bomb, it will blow up prior. Even then, it is tricky. While trip mine activation is much faster and less interruptible, the damage is crap compared to Corruptors, probably because of all of the debuffs. Also, caltrops does a lot of more damage, but seems to last not as long. All in All, I believe Fold Space is just better on a traps player than devices particularly corr over defender. I play my AR/Dev blaster as a "master of cones" where I have almost maxed out range (as much as possible). I only care about range defense on her, so folding people into her is counter intuitive. Bad guys just die before they get to me. My play-testing tonight showed that. Where as my corr never died if i took my time, my pimped out blaster was fresh meat often with the same play style and slotting. Maybe with a different player or different slotting or primary things would be different, but i doubt it (Maybe used with Ice Blast...). I will say that Bonfire 6 slotted with ragnarok + KB to KD improves survival with caltrops also. Still, corr scourge plus debuffs just picks off more bad guys than I realized. Now, you all go back to bitching about a needless power no one ever used! Thanks.

Sounds like the problem is Time Bomb, shocker.

[arkieboy72472]

Remember, if you run devices, you better have fold qued if you want to use it right after time bomb or it aint happening.

[arkieboy72472]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Sounds like the problem is Time Bomb, shocker.

Yea, I tried the same play style and for a number of reasons, it aint happening. I am not going to test every primary. I saw enough to know that devices and fold space isnt for me. I will, however, spec my traps corr into it and my gravity/time controller as well.

[dtj714]

1 hour ago, ABlueThingy said:

But the options we've been presented are LRTP or Fold Space.

Fold Space was created to fill the place left by the removal of LRTP, which was so removed because it was a “waste” as a pool power. Now, with the improvements bestowed upon the accolade, it’s bar-none the best inter-zone travel option (anyone who says otherwise is clueless or lying), instead of a “nice little bonus”. 
 

LRTP is a universally useful travel power in a travel power pool - everyone needs to travel between zones. Not everyone needs or wants to herd mobs (and have fun playing mob ping-pong with those who do). If all these other travel options exist and are so great, then why make he accolade so desirable, or have it at all?

 

LRTP existed as a pool power from Issue 21. Yes it was horribly anemic at what it was meant to do, but they’ve shown that it can be vastly improved, and in so doing have eliminated the reason for taking it out of the pool to begin with.

 

So let everyone else use their P2W Base ports, Ouro ports, tram and tunnel slogging, etc. I want to go “BAMPH!” between any 2 zones every two minutes. Anyone who says that isn’t worthy of consideration as a regular power in the overall scheme is just kidding themselves (and/or others). 

[Dragon Crush]

I feel like you're the only one who's pushing nearly as hard to get LRTP put back in as a power pool pick rather than an accolade (now that unlock requirements have been loosened anyway) and Fold Space removed, so I guess every other player is kidding themselves and a liar by your un-logic.

Also, it's teleportation pool, not specifically travel teleportation. If it has to do with teleporting yourself or others it fits.

 

Edit to add -- I also doubt I'm in the majority, but honestly even if it was TP to any point in any zone with no cooldown, I'd likely still take the tram when solo or on a chill team, but I grew up on Everquest and back when I started you could spend hours traveling from one zone to another and end up back where you started if you died and need to run naked back to get your corpse and all your gear. Spending 5-15 minutes traveling is quaint, and some of the stuff you see while traveling around can be interesting.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Dragon Crush

[GM Tock]

Removed a bunch of posts.  Please stay on topic concerning Teleport Pool powers.  Try them on the Beta servers, let us know what you think.

[ScarySai]

Is it intentional for Shadow Step to not benefit from the untouchable status? This still hasn't been resolved.

 

If so, why? Seems inconsistent, if intentional.

[Luigrein]

I didn't go through the whole thread so apologies if I'm repeating things said.

I don't think LRTP was ever a bad power, it was held back by a few things.
*It was gated behind investing in the teleport pool, which by my understanding is the least popular travel power. (Somewhat understanably so, it's far chunkier than a toggle. And the advantages gained by that are pretty niche.)
*It didn't offer any combat ability. It's a nice general QoL ability, but you don't take it to help your build, you take it because your build can afford a power choice. (Or multiple choices if you didn't want the earlier powers)
*It was largely made redundant by being able to base portal from anywhere. (Which is going away now, but with LRTP changing at the same time who knows if this would have changed anything.)

All that being said, I don't have particularly strong feelings about whether it should be a pool power or an accolade. The new/combined powers do seem pretty sweet and of the current and beta TP pool powers, LRTP probably translates to an accolade version best.

[VV]

On 10/24/2020 at 8:39 AM, Jimmy said:

 Fold Space (Replaces Long Range Teleport)

• This power will teleport foes from the nearby area into melee range
  • Line of sight is required
  • 100ft range, 16 targets max, prioritizes closer targets
• Long Range Teleport has been removed from the Teleportation pool and is now an Accolade power
  • If you previously had Long Range Teleport, you'll now have Fold Space
  • See the Long Range Teleporter section below for more information

As a long-time Gravity mainliner, this is some nonsense. It really takes away from the uniqueness of Wormhole. Now half the tanks and other meleers are going to be teleporters. I tolerated everyone mocking Wormhole for YEARS back in live. Nowadays people finally appreciate it a little bit. Then, it gets nullified. (And don't tell me about the stun blah blah blah, lots of powersets have Stuns, that's not the exciting part). And so, Fold Space is available at 14, but Gravity still doesn't get it till 26? Even worse nonsense. Yes, I realize FS can only pull the enemies to you, but that's what WH is usually used for, anyway, so the limitation there is minor.