Focused Feedback: PvP Updates

[Troo]

2 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

4 hours ago, Troo said:

Question: Why not add a Non-PVP temp also?

Those are temp versions of existing accolades. You want those powers in normal play? Earn 'em.

I meant, a new non-pvp, pvp zone temp that allowed a player to do what they needed in zone without having to pvp.

[forgottenidentity89]

32 minutes ago, Parisstar said:

Ja I agree to an extent, some changes are good like the no incarnates except alpha only. Some feel a bit weird though like the no temps and acco changes. Zoners are usually more casual players, so idk if forced arena rules is best way to approach it or else why aren't they in the arena now? Though Most zoners don't seem to use forums either so I don't think will hear their opinion till changes go live. I just don't want to take away from their experience to better fit the arena people who never zone any who. I personally think getting rid of the base macro and incarnates would be best for now. Maybe add more changes in the future. 😛 

Doesn't really make sense. A good portion of arena folks played zone on live and when the server first came back, but stopped because non-alpha incarnates made combat ridiculous. These changes lower the barrier for playing in both spheres. 

 

2 hours ago, @Charlie said:

These are really incredible changes, absolutely floored by the easing of the accolade grind as well as the new arena map.

Here are my suggestions for the accolade power names:

•   H-Boosted
•   Beefed
•   Kill Potential
•   Unjauntable
•   The Naturalizer
  
  (I agree with M3Z's picks for Call to War and Special Technique for the alignment powers)

Simply marvelous!

[Ms Deadly]

2 minutes ago, forgottenidentity89 said:

Doesn't really make sense. A good portion of arena folks played zone on live and when the server first came back, but stopped because non-alpha incarnates made combat ridiculous. These changes lower the barrier for playing in both spheres. 

No I agree, the incarnates are a bit ridiculous. So they should remove them(except for Alpha), just idk about all the other changes on top of it. Sorry if there was any confusion in what I said. 🙂 

[EmperorSteele]

15 minutes ago, Troo said:

I meant, a new non-pvp, pvp zone temp that allowed a player to do what they needed in zone without having to pvp.

So, what, run around a pvp zone, invincible/invisible against players? Nope. It's a PvP zone. You enter, you have to deal with Players.

[Troo]

It also seems, while there have been interesting suggestions, any temp accolades posing as actual accolade should be as easily named, straight forward and understandable for the average player.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Troo

[Troo]

9 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

So, what, run around a pvp zone, invincible/invisible against players? Nope. It's a PvP zone. You enter, you have to deal with Players.

This is a focused feedback thread not an argument thread or a pvp match.

[America's Angel]

1 hour ago, Parisstar said:

Ja I agree to an extent, some changes are good like the no incarnates except alpha only. Some feel a bit weird though like the no temps and acco changes. Zoners are usually more casual players, so idk if forced arena rules is best way to approach it or else why aren't they in the arena now? Though Most zoners don't seem to use forums either so I don't think will hear their opinion till changes go live. I just don't want to take away from their experience to better fit the arena people who never zone any who. I personally think getting rid of the base macro and incarnates would be best for now. Maybe add more changes in the future. 😛 

These changes make it easier for casual players.

 

No need to grind incarnates/accolades.

[Faultline]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

I meant, a new non-pvp, pvp zone temp that allowed a player to do what they needed in zone without having to pvp.

That would be used to grief PVPers (spy accounts, summoning garbage, pulling mods without retribution, joining an Arena match that you can't be attacked in, etc). These aren't "PVP Zone temps" (no such thing exists), they're Arena temps, which now happen to work in PVP zones too.

[Troo]

7 minutes ago, Faultline said:

That would be used to grief PVPers (spy accounts, summoning garbage, pulling mods without retribution, joining an Arena match that you can't be attacked in, etc). These aren't "PVP Zone temps" (no such thing exists), they're Arena temps, which now happen to work in PVP zones too.

sooo pvpers ruin everything? is that what i was supposed to read between the lines? (I am totally joking)

 

what's to keep folks from doing all those things now? being defeated?

[Faultline]

7 hours ago, Troo said:

Note: Siren's Call mini-map got rotated?

Question: Is the PvP multizone access temporary? (actually kinda cool if it's here to stay)

Question: Is the PvP accolade change for all PVP zones?

• I do feel this could punish some folks who went to the trouble to try and earn them (especially for or by specific levels).

Question: Why not just give all PvPers all the accolades?

Question: The current pvp in-zone temp powers / buffs are going away?

Question: What's the impact on the mini games in PvP zones?

Comment: This seems to push PvP further from the PvE game rather than closer.

Yes, no, yes, putting them on a store is easier, no, likely insignificant, I dunno because I don't PVP.

[ROBOKiTTY]

6 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

I gotta disagree. The entire POINT of those badges is "I worked my butt off and risked getting pwned by other players". Badges are something that are earned, some easier or harder than others, and some are supposed to be frustrating. Removing the only real barrier to collecting them makes the entire endeavor meaningless. We're not owed these things for free (well, minimal effort, anyway) on a silver platter. Because let's face it, while the AVs put up a decent fight, they aren't super challenging.

Having PvE versions of PvP zones also just makes it "safe" to get otherwise overpowered abilities. The only thing that makes getting a Shivan, LB Heavy or a Nuke interesting is the idea that an enemy player might be hiding around a corner, or invisibly tailing you. And let's face it, unless you're in RV, your chances of seeing an enemy player in a PvP zone are usually pretty dang low anyway.

THAT being said, I wonder if there's a way to tweak the anti-incarnate mechanic so that those powers initially work in RV, but are disabled once you engage or are engaged by enemy players? It would at least let people more easily hunt the AVs, at least until the inevitable happens. These changes were made to make PvPers lives easier in their preferred environment, but there's no harm in letting non-PvPers use the powers when Enemy Players aren't around.
 

I already got those badges on all the characters I care to get them on. I already have every badge in the game, so it's not about myself. It's not about being owed them on a silver platter or whatever. It's about being frustrated wading into a system so different from the PvE content people are used to. It's the reality that most non-PvPer badgers don't care for a distinction between PvP and PvE badges -- they're going to try to get them all regardless. You can try to make the journey there more or less difficult. If you wanna characterize that as a challenge and a nice added bonus, well, it's not actually challenging, more frustrating if you ask me. Like punching an AV for 20 minutes to wear down its regen is not really more challenging than the exact same fight in 10 minutes.

 

You remember I used to run Abyss Hamidon on Virtue, which involved getting Warburg nukes regularly, back when PvPers were actually lying in wait. I am not talking about that. Shivans and nukes are from zones that never benefited from incarnate powers to begin with, so they're outside the scope of this discussion. I never mentioned having PvE versions of Bloody Bay or Warburg, either. I'm talking about RV.

Edited November 1, 2020 by ROBOKiTTY

[EmperorSteele]

@ROBOKiTTY Well, you said "So why not spin up separate PvE instances for those zones?" (emphasis mine), so I interpreted that as meaning all the PvP zones. Like, Plural. You can see how I may have made that assumption! You either mistyped, or Freudian slipped, or something.
 

As for the challenge/frustration part, well, removing all challenge/frustration wouldn't be very rewarding. Not to mention, different people find different things frustrating. And while there is some precedent for removing artificial frustration (reducing the points needed for Empath/Immortal/etc; removing 90% of the AE badges when the devs realized everyone was farming that shit just to get the badges and didn't actually care about making good AE content), I don't see PvP as being in that same ballpark. The PvP badges are rewards for exposing yourself to PvP. And, trust me, I've had my fair share of frustration dealing with PvPers. Raising up your all-powerful hero or villain, and being made to feel important and impactful and like a big shot in the game world, just to get chumped in one shot in a PvP zone, it's really demoralizing, to say the least. But, it keeps ya humble! Again, trust me, i HATE it!

Despite my misgivings about having to deal with PvP and some of it's users, I also don't think it needs to be "fixed" with non-PvPers interests in mind. Last time we tried that, we got i13, which made the situation even WORSE for casuals and badgers venturing into a PvP zone! I say, leave it be.

[ROBOKiTTY]

Point is, removing incarnate powers from RV seems to have very little to do with the challenge or lack thereof of badging activities in RV. This is a PvP change to cater to PvPers. So any argument about the PvE consequences seems like posthoc rationalization. I'm more bringing up that PvP zones are probably used more for PvE than PvP, and this PvE-PvP tension was a consequence of various questionable decisions made by Cryptic/Paragon in the past that does not need to continue.

Edited November 1, 2020 by ROBOKiTTY

[reib]

A pvp player can spend even 80/90% of his entire online experience only in a pvp zone. for a pve player the pvp zone takes up less than 1% of his life online. because therefore we are still talking about pve? I think pve players this time should just stay out of the question, wait and adapt to what's coming.

Edited November 1, 2020 by reib

[Ruin Mage]

Honestly, I think most PVPers would respect the hustle of going after the RV AVs or Warburg nukes.

And if they don't, that's on you for going to a PVP zone.

[Starforge]

Can't speak for the other shards, but people in PvP zones on Everlasting seem to be much more forgiving on badgers than they ever were on Virtue. I've been there when RV has had ten plus people that were more than happy to either ignore me while badging or offer to help swap pillboxes.

As for making it tougher to take down the AVs...I remember having to do it before we had all these crazy IO'd builds and certainly before Incarnates. It will be alright, I promise.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Starforge

[barrier]

3 hours ago, reib said:

A pvp player can spend even 80/90% of his entire online experience only in a pvp zone. for a pve player the pvp zone takes up less than 1% of his life online. because therefore we are still talking about pve? I think pve players this time should just stay out of the question, wait and adapt to what's coming.

This is proper.

 

I assume you mean PVE zone on the first line.

 

There are 4 zones in the game tailored to PVP. All the others (Probably hundreds if we count instanced maps) are yours. You can have the rest. Those badges and AV's weren't designed for PVEers. They were meant to encourage PVP. People pretending to be ignorant of said fact need to just stop.

Edited November 1, 2020 by barrier

[Spineropolis]

17 hours ago, Phoenix' said:

Dont be lazy dear just farm your toon to vet lvl 9 and you have your t4 alpha 😉

But that's like an additional 3 hours of farming! 😂 I am upping the ante. Free lvl 50 for PvP only. It could be like a 2nd category of builds that are only active in zones/arena

[Troo]

4 hours ago, reib said:

A pvp player can spend even 80/90% of his entire online experience only in a pvp zone. for a pve player the pvp zone takes up less than 1% of his life online. because therefore we are still talking about pve? I think pve players this time should just stay out of the question, wait and adapt to what's coming.

Hold on here.

I spend significant time in PvP zones. I have characters parked in PvP zones who really only leave for black market or a TF.

There are little to NO pvpers in zones. In my experience, RV is the only zone that regularly gets more than one or two PvPers at a time.

 

I hang in Siren's Call for hours at a time doing the mini game. While happy to PvP, when in a PvP zone I am doing PvE the vast majority of the time. Currently 95-99%

[Ash Field]

Add all cloned IOs with pvp only flags to the store
Tier it out
Use siren's bounty system to trade for pvp coin in every zone - expand how it rewards as well
sell pvp cloned IOs for pvp coin
make all tradable

This is great progress for pvp

On a side note to the naysayers who hate the idea of lower zones and dont like playing at lower level - It is infinitly easier to twink a LLD toon than anything else. Almost all other MMOs do this and have a healthy community for low level pvp. There is much less investment in time and resources for casuals and hosting weekend events is more trivial for casuals who want to dip your toe. Right now you have only diehard pvpers and farm targets/trainees  

[Glacier Peak]

Level 1 PvP is fun

[Faultline]

14 hours ago, ROBOKiTTY said:

Point is, removing incarnate powers from RV seems to have very little to do with the challenge or lack thereof of badging activities in RV. This is a PvP change to cater to PvPers. So any argument about the PvE consequences seems like posthoc rationalization.

There's no need for that rationalization. This is a PVP change to cater to PVPers. The PVE elements will be fine, I was still able to solo AVs using the heavies, but they were not the primary concern, and neither should they be. It is a PVP zone.

 

All the PVP zones already result in a massive drop in power for PVE builds, either because of the forced exemplaring or because of diminishing returns. Removing Incarnates in RV is very equivalent to exemplaring down in other PVP zones -- that is the rationalization on why this was fine to do.

[Apparition]

14 hours ago, ROBOKiTTY said:

Point is, removing incarnate powers from RV seems to have very little to do with the challenge or lack thereof of badging activities in RV. This is a PvP change to cater to PvPers. So any argument about the PvE consequences seems like posthoc rationalization. I'm more bringing up that PvP zones are probably used more for PvE than PvP, and this PvE-PvP tension was a consequence of various questionable decisions made by Cryptic/Paragon in the past that does not need to continue.

 

The only "tension" is brought up by PvEers who think that they are due every single badge in the game and refuse to acknowledge that they are actually entering PvP zones, not PvE.  And I say this as a PvEer who avoids PvP like the plague.  PvP zones are for PvPers.  End of story.

[Arli]

15 hours ago, ROBOKiTTY said:

Point is, removing incarnate powers from RV seems to have very little to do with the challenge or lack thereof of badging activities in RV. This is a PvP change to cater to PvPers. So any argument about the PvE consequences seems like posthoc rationalization. I'm more bringing up that PvP zones are probably used more for PvE than PvP, and this PvE-PvP tension was a consequence of various questionable decisions made by Cryptic/Paragon in the past that does not need to continue.

While they may be used for PvE purposes quite frequently, it still is a PVP zone. It's hardly fair to the PvPers if play is continuously disrupted by Incarnate abilities that are fine for PvE, but ridiculous against other players. It's no real problem to use a heavy when desiring to complete objectives for the sake of badging - and if it's still difficult to complete objectives even then, you could still have a buddy come in with you and assist.

I support the change - it makes sense for what it is, and in regards to continuity/concept it isn't in-line with the current dimension we all actively play in - who is to say our characters would be just as powerful in that potential future as they are now?

 

I appreciate the change, great work, HC team! I'm not even a PvPer but I've PvP'd in the past, and I think the change'll be awesome towards encouraging more PvP in a zone that I don't often see contested when I do go there. 😄

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

 

The only "tension" is brought up by PvEers who think that they are due every single badge in the game and refuse to acknowledge that they are actually entering PvP zones, not PvE.  And I say this as a PvEer who avoids PvP like the plague.  PvP zones are for PvPers.  End of story.

I've never really understood the reasoning either. I thought people badge hunted for the sense of accomplishment, so if they just get handed badges without actually having to work for it and overcome what makes them difficult to achieve to begin with, and the intentions behind their creation (being in PvP scenarios) then what's the point?