Focused Feedback: PvP Updates

[Gibson99]

On 10/31/2020 at 1:51 PM, Monos King said:

Disagree with this one. Every PvP zone literally gives temporary powers, it's part of the appeal and none of them actually ruin the experience; only incarnates did that. I'm supposed to go and get Warburg nukes and then not even be able to use them in zone? That's pretty absurd. I am also not asking for only the PvP earned temporary powers to be re-enabled, I am asking that all of them be. Amplifiers are already rightfully disabled, it's already known to be essentially a disqualifier if used in a duel; if I want a fight with no temps, I just do an arena fight. No need to take away that fun from zone at all.

 

Other than that these are fantastic changes.

I agree with you. Not sure why RV is turning into a giant KB zone. If PvPers wanted to KB, we'd do it.

Looks like the KBers wanted to change zones to follow their arena rules. 

Still waiting for Slows to work!

 

[Monos King]

2 minutes ago, Gibson99 said:

I agree with you. Not sure why RV is turning into a giant KB zone. If PvPers wanted to KB, we'd do it.

Looks like the KBers wanted to change zones to follow their arena rules. 

Still waiting for Slows to work!

 

Luckily, turns out only certain Auto Power Temps are disabled (much like how amplifiers are) so I am appeased personally. 

 

Slow Resurrection is talk for another time, but I'm 100% with you on that one. Would go a long way.

[macskull]

39 minutes ago, Gibson99 said:

I agree with you. Not sure why RV is turning into a giant KB zone. If PvPers wanted to KB, we'd do it.

Looks like the KBers wanted to change zones to follow their arena rules. 

Still waiting for Slows to work!

 

You... do know that it's only "KB" because it's "captains pick teams," right? The goal of these changes is to provide more balanced, deterministic encounters without having to deal with large-scale mechanics changes which would certainly be more difficult to implement. Incarnate powers are absolutely not balanced with PvP in mind (hell, most of them don't even have separate PvP effects flags) and using the higher-tier ones tends to break things more often than not, allowing a single character to do the work of multiple people. Like, why would I need a support character with me if I could just run T4 Incan and bring a tray of T3 greens that heal me for my entire HP bar every time I use one?

 

For what it's worth, I'd be on board with allowing empowerment station buffs to still work since they are of pretty limited duration, but it makes sense that there's just a blanket rule for "if it's not an arena temp power or power you can get in a zone, it's not allowed."

[M3z]

Temp phase (which doesn't follow no phase rules meaning you can double phase), jump packs and fly packs (the 4 hour ones you can get from p2w vendor) along with all of the base buffs etc are what I have a problem with and should be removed because they aren't fun at all to play against or with and encourages 0 risk defensive gameplay (read boring). If you know what you are doing in zones there is zero reason why you should ever ever die if you are trying.

 

We are playing in a game with almost 0 CC (2-4 second mez durations are only relevant in arena) or crowd controls (slows literally do not work anymore and since PB -special was taken out of the game are completely non existent) do we really need more escapes?

[Gibson99]

3 hours ago, Faultline said:

There's no need for that rationalization. This is a PVP change to cater to PVPers. The PVE elements will be fine, I was still able to solo AVs using the heavies, but they were not the primary concern, and neither should they be. It is a PVP zone.

 

All the PVP zones already result in a massive drop in power for PVE builds, either because of the forced exemplaring or because of diminishing returns. Removing Incarnates in RV is very equivalent to exemplaring down in other PVP zones -- that is the rationalization on why this was fine to do.

There are two types of PvPers. Arena and Zone. These changes cater to Arena/KB players that want their preferences in PvP zones. 

Did I mention Slows? 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Gibson99

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Gibson99 said:

There are two types of PvPers. Arena and Zone. These changes cater to Arena/KB players that want their preferences in PvP zones. 

This also lowers the barrier for entry to those who are interested in trying out PvP, since zone PvP is usually the first place they'll experience it and it tends to be horribly unbalanced.

[El Foya]

Definitely on board for the pvp accolades, removal of base tp, and the helicopters!

 

I love and fully support alpha-only in zone and I'm glad there's less grind needed for entry, but without assault hybrid, judgment, and interface everyone will be doing less damage (no, I don't think the loss of destiny will offset this nearly enough). This is fine if you're on the side with more people, but it's gunna be rougher for underdogs/solos trying to pick a kill before getting focused. Zones, unlike arena, are very rarely 2 balanced teams duking it out and people almost never switch to even things out.

 

It's also going to further widen the gap between ranged and melee toons. While the ranged player(s) can easily make up for the lost damage with more attacks, melee will have to close the distance however many more times for the same damage and no longer have judgment for clean-ups. Add to that, the loss of destiny (barrier in particular) is much more significant for melee toons' survivability. That said, a melee that doesn't want to die still has a much better chance of escaping a fight and some have potent T9s to lean on, so at least there's that.

 

Raising damage in pvp across the board (x1.1ish) with a larger bump for melee (x1.2-1.25ish) is the best solution imo, but I don't expect something like that happening any time soon (or ever, really). Also, I prefer 1v1 anyway so as long as I can use hybrid and interface in arena this really doesn't effect me much. Still wanted to share my concerns.

 

Tl;dr almost entirely like the changes but teams are gunna steamroll RV harder than ever and melee is worse off than before.

[barrier]

49 minutes ago, grimreaper12k said:

 

 

It's also going to further widen the gap between ranged and melee toons. While the ranged player(s) can easily make up for the lost damage with more attacks, melee will have to close the distance however many more times for the same damage and no longer have judgment for clean-ups. Add to that, the loss of destiny (barrier in particular) is much more significant for melee toons' survivability. That said, a melee that doesn't want to die still has a much better chance of escaping a fight and some have potent T9s to lean on, so at least there's that.

 I strongly disagree with this point. I never once died on my SS/Rad Brute in 8v8. Not a single time ever. That's because the only real threats to a properly spec'd taunt bot are t4 incarnates.

 

I recently respec'd that toon into a fossilize build and I can definitely tell you that even before getting barrier, it is probably the most survivable spike toon that I have and it can consistently do an epic ton of damage. I am not seriously worried at all about having incarnates removed. It will probably fare better than now.

[M3z]

5 minutes ago, barrier said:

 I strongly disagree with this point. I never once died on my SS/Rad Brute in 8v8. Not a single time ever. That's because the only real threats to a properly spec'd taunt bot are t4 incarnates.

 

I recently respec'd that toon into a fossilize build and I can definitely tell you that even before getting barrier, it is probably the most survivable spike toon that I have and it can consistently do an epic ton of damage. I am not seriously worried at all about having incarnates removed. It will probably fare better than now.

melee in organized team is different than zone/small teams. Even then melee in organizes boils down to taunting, if taunting is banned (it is) melee is useless.

 

Melee in zones/small teams are invulnerable(if running pvp viable build) but aren't really able to get kills.

 

Overall the verdict on melee outside of fightclub non movement based 1v1s is they are absolute trash. This is from someone who has tried to pvp with both stalkers/scrappers pretty extensively in various formats (zones/8v8s etc).

 

The solution is a change to the mez system, but that is a very complicated subject that I don't feel like going into in this post lol.

[barrier]

3 minutes ago, M3z said:

melee in organized team is different than zone/small teams. Even then melee in organizes boils down to taunting, if taunting is banned (it is) melee is useless.

 

Melee in zones/small teams are invulnerable(if running pvp viable build) but aren't really able to get kills.

 

Overall the verdict on melee outside of fightclub non movement based 1v1s is they are absolute trash. This is from someone who has tried to pvp with both stalkers/scrappers pretty extensively in various formats (zones/8v8s etc).

 

The solution is a change to the mez system, but that is a very complicated subject that I don't feel like going into in this post lol.

I think you need to see what an SS/X/Fossilize Brute can do if played like a blaster in zone. There is very little reason to play a blaster in zone if you have a proper tank/brute build that properly procs KO Blow, Stone Cage and Fossilize. I hate to say this but Madvillain was right on this stuff.

Edited November 2, 2020 by barrier

[Faultline]

2 hours ago, M3z said:

Temp phase (which doesn't follow no phase rules meaning you can double phase),

Ethereal Shift should be following NoPhase rules as of this patch. If you mean a different power, I need to know the name.

[macskull]

1 hour ago, grimreaper12k said:

This is fine if you're on the side with more people

Right now one of the big things keeping a lot of people on one alignment or the other are the alignment powers, which will be swappable after this patch hits so I can go villain and keep the Call to Justice equivalent.

[M3z]

2 hours ago, barrier said:

I think you need to see what an SS/X/Fossilize Brute can do if played like a blaster in zone. There is very little reason to play a blaster in zone if you have a proper tank/brute build that properly procs KO Blow, Stone Cage and Fossilize. I hate to say this but Madvillain was right on this stuff.

I know exactly what it can do, if you have a brain and greens it's no different than a blaster. that might be the only semi decent melee build, but a far cry from what melee was like pre i13.

 

what I wish melee was like again: 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by M3z

[Gibson99]

13 hours ago, macskull said:

This also lowers the barrier for entry to those who are interested in trying out PvP, since zone PvP is usually the first place they'll experience it and it tends to be horribly unbalanced.

I remember vividly this idea of “lowering the barrier” to help out noobs ruining PvP before. Don’t you?
So when I hear this same phrase being used saying, “we’re going to make PvP a fair experience for the new players”, I’m skeptical and nervous. 
Actually, I don’t believe it at all. It’s simply Kickballers helping themselves by forcing their arena rules upon zone players. 
 

[barrier]

Just now, Gibson99 said:

I remember vividly this idea of “lowering the barrier” to help out noobs ruining PvP before. Don’t you?
So when I hear this same phrase being used saying, “we’re going to make PvP a fair experience for the new players”, I’m skeptical and nervous. 
Actually, I don’t believe it at all. It’s simply Kickballers helping themselves by forcing their arena rules upon zone players. 
 

The difference about this time is that this is coming from people who know how insane incarnates can be when used properly. Your newly minted beam/ta blaster with alpha only has close to zero chances against a fully t4 incarn'd fire/plant in the hands of someone who halfway knows what they are doing.  It is not that it's a somewhat interesting match up, it's that it's a totally deterministic match up regardless of skill even before the encounter begins and that's not good for the game.  Incarnates, other than alpha, reduce the number of possible outcomes, independent of the skill of the parties involved. Meanwhile, i13 just made skill less relevant. That was just different.

[Dombloo]

Are the fakkolade vendors going to be added into the PvP zones as well? Would be convenient to be able to grab them once you get into zone if you aren't someone who goes to the arena at all.

 

Moreover, it's taking too long for incarnate powers, etc. to lockout upon zoning/reviving—which has potential to lead to some abuse. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Dombloo

[Phoenix']

On 11/1/2020 at 1:54 AM, Taboo said:

Looks like the Arena folks are taking over the PvP zones.

 

Some of the changes seem ok. New zone cool.. oh, it's an old zone.

 

This is a BAD SET OF CHANGES for MOST players though I can see how a few would eagerly advocate for and try to drown out any other opinions.

 

Gimme a list of those "most" players you are talking about I beg you

 

On 11/1/2020 at 2:55 AM, Troo said:

I meant, a new non-pvp, pvp zone temp that allowed a player to do what they needed in zone without having to pvp.

 

Its been a part of the game since the start. Just like what some "normal" pvers said, yes they hate getting ganked but managing getting those badges was rewarding for them.

Real badge hunters dont want their badges to be served on a plate. They like the effort. 

 

14 hours ago, Gibson99 said:

There are two types of PvPers. Arena and Zone. These changes cater to Arena/KB players that want their preferences in PvP zones. 

Did I mention Slows? 

First of all everyone started from a pvp zone not just magically got into a team.

Many arena teams were formed in RV. 

RV used to be full of those Arena players before incarnates were a thing. 

Just because they chose to play  a more balanced PvP system in Arena rather the trash one in RV doesnt mean they are not zoners at all. 

Please stop trying to pass to everyone that there are two different pvp communities (arena/zone). 

Pvp zones were full because of them... 

[Troo]

52 minutes ago, Phoenix' said:

Its been a part of the game since the start. Just like what some "normal" pvers said, yes they hate getting ganked but managing getting those badges was rewarding for them.

Real badge hunters dont want their badges to be served on a plate. They like the effort. 

Oh I get it. I might not want to use such a item but I also understand that some might and that there has been requests for similar in the past. It doesn't seem like a crazy request.

 

There needs to be some give and take.

 

Right now it does look like the arena crowd are pushing changes and a bit of 'the heck with everyone else'.

 

I do not appreciate the accolade changes. I didn't get many of my accolades for level 50. I got them for level 32.

[Gibson99]

1 hour ago, barrier said:

The difference about this time is that this is coming from people who know how insane incarnates can be when used properly. Your newly minted beam/ta blaster with alpha only has close to zero chances against a fully t4 incarn'd fire/plant in the hands of someone who halfway knows what they are doing.  It is not that it's a somewhat interesting match up, it's that it's a totally deterministic match up regardless of skill even before the encounter begins and that's not good for the game.  Incarnates, other than alpha, reduce the number of possible outcomes, independent of the skill of the parties involved. Meanwhile, i13 just made skill less relevant. That was just different.

You can rationalize this all day long. The bottom line is Kickballers brought their Preferred Way To PvP to the Zones. 

Is it right or wrong? 3, 2, 1 Fire! 

Time will tell. 

On a side note (haha), can you kickballers petition the devs to make slows work again? You got your Arena Rules so maybe you get slows too!

I'm a big fan of slows. I know M3z is too. So are the PvPers on my global and on zone chat.

 

 

[barrier]

6 minutes ago, Gibson99 said:

You can rationalize this all day long. The bottom line is Kickballers brought their Preferred Way To PvP to the Zones. 

Is it right or wrong? 3, 2, 1 Fire! 

Time will tell. 

On a side note (haha), can you kickballers petition the devs to make slows work again? You got your Arena Rules so maybe you get slows too!

I'm a big fan of slows. I know M3z is too. So are the PvPers on my global and on zone chat.

 

 

Argue against the "rationalization" then. Your "bottom line" is not an argument on game mechanics, which is what I responded to you with. The source of a proposed change in game mechanics is not an argument against a proposal.

 

Pretty sure everyone wants slows to work again, but the PVEers really got their way with the power boost nerf. My grav/poison and every one of my poison and cold mm's could do actual slows before the PB nerf. Not so much now.

[forgottenidentity89]

 

5 minutes ago, Gibson99 said:

You can rationalize this all day long. The bottom line is Kickballers brought their Preferred Way To PvP to the Zones. 

Is it right or wrong? 3, 2, 1 Fire! 

Time will tell. 

On a side note (haha), can you kickballers petition the devs to make slows work again? You got your Arena Rules so maybe you get slows too!

I'm a big fan of slows. I know M3z is too. So are the PvPers on my global and on zone chat.

 

 

Incarnates were never optimized for PvP. 

 

I am sorry you can no longer use +300% heals, +100% defense from barrier, and your litany of base buffs to make your Bane Spider invincible. Because on the other end, with a blaster doing that, it's even more ridiculous. 

[barrier]

12 minutes ago, Troo said:

Oh I get it. I might not want to use such a item but I also understand that some might and that there has been requests for similar in the past. It doesn't seem like a crazy request.

 

There needs to be some give and take.

 

Right now it does look like the arena crowd are pushing changes and a bit of 'the heck with everyone else'.

 

I do not appreciate the accolade changes. I didn't get many of my accolades for level 50. I got them for level 32.

 

1. There does not need to be a give and take. Take your PVE grinder mentality elsewhere.

2. The arena crowd is pushing changes because the zones are empty and the arena is not.

3. Please don't tell me you got your accolades at level 35 for Siren's because I am just going to be extra mean to you if you did.

[Troo]

10 minutes ago, barrier said:

 

1. There does not need to be a give and take. Take your PVE grinder mentality elsewhere.

2. The arena crowd is pushing changes because the zones are empty and the arena is not.

3. Please don't tell me you got your accolades at level 35 for Siren's because I am just going to be extra mean to you if you did.

Maybe I should have said "There could be some give and take."

I get that some folks can't help but trigger when anyone mentions something contrary.

 

Do you have a problem with Siren's Call? So for @barrier you don't need these change there then or in Warburg, or in.., or in..

 

If these changes were happening to only one zone, there would be hardly any push back.

Sweeping wholesale changes on the other hand are gonna receive some additional scrutiny. The additional questions and concerns should be heard and addressed, not dismissed.

[barrier]

Just now, Troo said:

Maybe I should have said "There could be some give and take."

I get that some folks can't help but trigger when anyone mentions something contrary.

 

Do you have a problem with Siren's Call? So for @barrier you don't need these change there then or in Warburg, or in.., or in..

 

If these changes were happening to only one zone, there would be hardly any push back.

Sweeping wholesale changes on the other hand are gonna receive some additional scrutiny. The additional questions and concerns should be heard and addressed, not dismissed.

Nice deflection. Did you actually get your accolades at level 35 for Siren's

[Troo]

2 minutes ago, barrier said:

Nice deflection. Did you actually get your accolades at level 35 for Siren's

32 (not all of them are available at 32)

 

Note: you told me not to tell you.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Troo