Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[Luminara]

37 minutes ago, Naraka said:

And that's the kind of mentality people would lable as toxic. I'm not saying you are, just making the point. It's like telling a depressed person to just stop being depressed.

 

That's not toxic, and anyone who labels it as such has never actually encountered toxic behavior.  @EmmySky couldn't be toxic if she tried, and her point is valid and honest.  If someone has to be talked into playing, even by themselves, they're not really interested in playing anyway, and a token in a video game isn't going to help them feel better for more than the length of time it takes to get that token.  Then they're right back in the stew pot.  They don't need to be encouraged to play, they need to be encouraged to root out the reason they're depressed and address it, and they need to be encouraged to find things that make them happy for what they represent to them, not what they represent to others.  Personal gratification, not gold stars.

[Naraka]

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Temporarily, within the context of the discussion, that being in a video game, and potentially to the detriment of finding long-term ways to overcome their mental state.  A carrot on a stick doesn't fix depression.  A short-term goal doesn't fix depression.  A gold star doesn't fix depression.  A video game doesn't fix depression, it distracts the player from the problems which cause their suffering.  A distraction isn't a cure.

 

I never said it was a cute or treatment for depression, merely compared some symptoms with the purveyance of player retention. To assist in keeping players engaged, you give them content and to motivated them to do that content you provide incentive. If you are making an argument on that, would be more on topic.

 

12 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

A pat on the back isn't what everyone needs when they're depressed.  Sometimes it's the opposite of what they need.  Motivation has to come from within, and yes, it can be encouraged, but that doesn't solve the problems they're having.

 

 

The game has finite rewards.  Every game has finite rewards.  Expecting an infinite supply of rewards, motivations, pats on the back, is pointless because it's impossible.  And relying on finite rewards to "fix" depression is guaranteed to fail.  One has to find personal gratification within the structure of a game, an inner need to continue playing, in order for it to be fulfilling, and unless it's fulfilling, it's not helping, it's just providing a delay in dealing with the problems which caused the depression.

 

 

And others are going to get their temporary distraction from the real problems in their lives, then go back to being depressed when it runs out.

 

I've spent more than 40 years of my life fighting mental illness.  I've learned that distractions aren't solutions to depression, finding personal gratification and inner happiness are.  No-one can truly change the way we feel, stop the pain, make the voices in the rain go away, except ourselves, and we can't do that with short-term, temporary fixes.  Personal gratification, taking satisfaction in something that doesn't require external validation, self-acceptance, those are how we combat depression effectively.  Badges and five mission story arcs and new animations, those are digital medication.  Real healing starts inside.

 

And sometimes, we can't be healed.  Some of us are going to live with our demons forever.  Understanding those demons and accepting that we're just not going to be "normal" does a million times more good than a reward or distraction in a video game.

 

So no, I'm not going to agree with you, on any of your points.  People suffering from depression need real assistance for their real problems, not the ephemeral relief of a pat on the back by video game developers.

So if your argument is going to be prescribing your own psych-analysis and you want us to recant any logical links to the comparison, can you also recant the argument of the topic having anything to do with "dopamine hits" for the thread as well? Completely revoke that argument from the thread then and perhaps we can examine game defined goals as a tool and an incentive.

 

 

[Luminara]

42 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Those accomplishments were taken away and given out for free which means there is no more accomplishment rewards for doing those missions anymore, which kind of takes the fun out of it.

 

Make your own accomplishment rewards.  Taking that sub-optimal character to 50 and letting people see how awesome you are, what an accomplished and knowledgeable player you are, is no less a reward than a badge or a cape or a title.

[Naraka]

17 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

That's not toxic, and anyone who labels it as such has never actually encountered toxic behavior.  @EmmySky couldn't be toxic if she tried, and her point is valid and honest.  If someone has to be talked into playing, even by themselves, they're not really interested in playing anyway, and a token in a video game isn't going to help them feel better for more than the length of time it takes to get that token.  Then they're right back in the stew pot.  They don't need to be encouraged to play, they need to be encouraged to root out the reason they're depressed and address it, and they need to be encouraged to find things that make them happy for what they represent to them, not what they represent to others.  Personal gratification, not gold stars.

Great, I understood @EmmySky's point and I wasn't labeling them as toxic. The point is, you gladly validate arguments you agree with and ignore the ones you don't. Even I can agree with that post on some points while also pointing out why I disagreed and explained why but you don't seem to be capable of the same.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Naraka

[Naraka]

37 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

 

As for the toxic guilt trip someone is trying to lay on the thread that by not encouraging someone to play the game through changing and adding content, anyone is somehow dimissing mental health issues, I wish I could post what I really think...but I will try and do it in a way that will last longer...

While these games are a great tool and coping mechanism for a large number of at-risk people, it is not some idea that can be used as a weapon to make people think a group of fans running a dead game need to make changes to accomodate people with issues, when they are lucky to even keep it running.

That kind of guilt trip is exactly the reason I refer to the 'community' of this game in the negative terms I often use.

The funny thing is, it was an allusion and not meant to be directly compared to depression but was assumed to be a direct comparison by someone else. No one has even argued if it's an apt comparison but the opposition has been perfectly justified in demonizing the OP as appealing to addiction of dopamine. If you can't see the hypocrisy there, I just outlined it for you.

[Solarverse]

8 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Make your own accomplishment rewards. 

Just stop...really. I have already explain how comments like that are a spit in the eye to players like us...so just....stop.

8 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Taking that sub-optimal character to 50 and letting people see how awesome you are, what an accomplished and knowledgeable player you are, is no less a reward than a badge or a cape or a title.

Then you clearly do not understand why players like myself don't see eye to eye with you.

[Luminara]

6 minutes ago, Naraka said:

So if your argument is going to be prescribing your own psych-analysis and you want us to recant any logical links to the comparison, can you also recant the argument of the topic having anything to do with "dopamine hits" for the thread as well?

 

Short-term neurotransmitter increases don't fix mental illness.  The high doesn't last.  That's why it's a high, not a cure.  And that's exactly why it's relevant to the topic.  There are a limited number of badges, and adding more doesn't increase that number to ∞.  Missions, story arcs, *Fs, they last a finite amount of time and can be run only so many times before they become actions performed by rote.  Costume parts and special titles don't give the same thrill when they're acquired for the tenth or fiftieth or hundredth time.

 

But personal gratification, achieving something that you set out to do and because you wanted to do it, not because someone offered you a shiny, that's long-term.  Doing things for ourselves, not to get attention or show off or be recognized in some way, is what makes us feel truly happy with ourselves, and a game which allows us to feel happy with ourselves has a lot more going for its retention than a game with 6 hours of gameplay added every few months.

 

Long-term mental health comes from stable, consistent dopamine levels.  So does long-term player retention, i.e. falling in love with the game, not having a passing crush or brief craving for it.

 

16 minutes ago, Naraka said:

The point is, you gladly validate arguments you agree with and ignore the ones you don't.

 

I addressed all of your points.

 

13 minutes ago, Naraka said:

The funny thing is, it was an allusion

 

An allusion doesn't specifically mention the subject.  You didn't allude to depression as a comparison to player satisfaction or retention, you used it as an example and segued into why more "stuff" should be added.  As I just said, I addressed all of your points.

 

If you don't like being contradicted when you're unclear in your intent, be clear.

[Luminara]

24 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Just stop...really. I have already explain how comments like that are a spit in the eye to players like us...so just....stop.

Then you clearly do not understand why players like myself don't see eye to eye with you.

 

Why do the shinies matter?  If it's just getting them, you can still do that.  You can do the cape and aura missions, you can get Task Force Commander the old-fashioned way, you can go to Cimerora and earn the costume parts before selecting them, you can wait for the holiday events and grind for the special things.

 

If it's because they used to be behind a gate, and you could show people that you'd passed through that gate, you're losing nothing there, either.  It doesn't matter if they recognize it or not, you know you did the work to earn them, and you're the only one who matters when it comes to that.

 

If it's a sense of elitism, of having something that others don't have or can't acquire... well, I know you're a better person than that.  I know you are.  And I'm not going to stop, if this is the reason, because I like you and respect you, and I refuse to accept that you're just looking for a way to stand above others.  I see more than that in you and I'm not sorry for trying to make you see it, too.

 

So what is it?  What makes gates so important to you?  That's something you have yet to explain.

[Naraka]

24 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Short-term neurotransmitter increases don't fix mental illness.  The high doesn't last.  That's why it's a high, not a cure.  And that's exactly why it's relevant to the topic.  There are a limited number of badges, and adding more doesn't increase that number to ∞.  Missions, story arcs, *Fs, they last a finite amount of time and can be run only so many times before they become actions performed by rote.  Costume parts and special titles don't give the same thrill when they're acquired for the tenth or fiftieth or hundredth time.

 

But personal gratification, achieving something that you set out to do and because you wanted to do it, not because someone offered you a shiny, that's long-term.  Doing things for ourselves, not to get attention or show off or be recognized in some way, is what makes us feel truly happy with ourselves, and a game which allows us to feel happy with ourselves has a lot more going for its retention than a game with 6 hours of gameplay added every few months.

 

Long-term mental health comes from stable, consistent dopamine levels.  So does long-term player retention, i.e. falling in love with the game, not having a passing crush or brief craving for it.

 

On one hand, you argue how short term neurotransmitters don't fix mental health and on the other you argue that long-term mental health is a consistent application of dopamine.

 

To those points I can understand how one can view them as being a linear departure from each other with one being an inversion and solution to the other... But I can also see how it's antithetical to your own argument. Some view the game as it is live as being the very short-term high with little long-term appreciation and satisfaction to be gained. Again, I get that your trying to argue that personal fulfillment isn't something you should be aiming to attain from a game but now it's up to you to understand that people are not arguing that at all.

 

24 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

An allusion doesn't specifically mention the subject.  You didn't allude to depression as a comparison to player satisfaction or retention, you used it as an example and segued into why more "stuff" should be added.  As I just said, I addressed all of your points.

 

And you fell for it. Yeah it wasn't an allusion, it was an analogy. But why didn't you actually correct me? Instead you pointed out I was wrong and left it there. You don't seem willing to actually empathize or reason with your opposition.

 

But real talk, I didn't actually set up a trap card or anything, I just used the wrong term but you resorting to a literal semantics argument just illustrates it is likely no use discussing anything with you unless you agree with it. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Naraka

[CrudeVileTerror]

As important as it is to talk about mental health, and I do want to advocate for things which improve people's well-being . . . 

 

I would like to caution against focusing on that particular topic in this thread.  The threshold for locking is fairly low when it comes to either straying from the original topic of a thread, or when addressing topics which are "too real" per the forum rules.

 

 . . . 

 

Thought:  Do we have a place where topics like that can be discussed?  Is mental health an acceptable topic to speak about in Off-Topic without concerns of thread-locking?

@GM Tahquitz; may we have your input on that?

 

 

 

As for trying to get this thread back on track . . . eeeeuuugh, sorry.   I'm not sure I have anything else pertinent to the original topic at this time.

[Leogunner]

10 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

As important as it is to talk about mental health, and I do want to advocate for things which improve people's well-being . . . 

 

I would like to caution against focusing on that particular topic in this thread.  The threshold for locking is fairly low when it comes to either straying from the original topic of a thread, or when addressing topics which are "too real" per the forum rules.

 

 . . . 

 

Thought:  Do we have a place where topics like that can be discussed?  Is mental health an acceptable topic to speak about in Off-Topic without concerns of thread-locking?

@GM Tahquitz; may we have your input on that?

 

 

 

As for trying to get this thread back on track . . . eeeeuuugh, sorry.   I'm not sure I have anything else pertinent to the original topic at this time.

Why do people resort to calling a mod to shut down topics?  It's already sort of ridiculous they decide when it's time to stop regular forum chatter just because it's not "progressing", as if it's somehow better to silence and censor than just having people civilly chat on a chatting forum.

 

If you feel a particular talking point is off topic, why not just tell those speaking about it that it's off topic?

 

And if mental health is off topic, how is appealing to arguments about pride and elitism not fall under the same umbrella?  Either having grind/goals is a mental gate or it's off topic and no one has engaged the OP since page 1.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Leogunner

[Solarverse]

39 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Why do the shinies matter?  If it's just getting them, you can still do that.  You can do the cape and aura missions, you can get Task Force Commander the old-fashioned way, you can go to Cimerora and earn the costume parts before selecting them, you can wait for the holiday events and grind for the special things.

 

If it's because they used to be behind a gate, and you could show people that you'd passed through that gate, you're losing nothing there, either.  It doesn't matter if they recognize it or not, you know you did the work to earn them, and you're the only one who matters when it comes to that.

 

If it's a sense of elitism, of having something that others don't have or can't acquire... well, I know you're a better person than that.  I know you are.  And I'm not going to stop, if this is the reason, because I like you and respect you, and I refuse to accept that you're just looking for a way to stand above others.  I see more than that in you and I'm not sorry for trying to make you see it, too.

 

So what is it?  What makes gates so important to you?  That's something you have yet to explain.

You know that I have not ran the cape mission a single time since they allowed players to have capes straight out of the gate? I used to enjoy running the cape mission, it was rewarding to do so and it came with a sense of accomplishment when you finally got to strap on that cape on your character for the first time. It was a stepping stone in the game that had been reached. Level 14 used to be something to look forward to when you finally unlocked your travel power. It was an accomplishment and it felt good. Level 30 was another stepping stone that was exiting to reach and running that mission at level 30 was difficult because the enemies you fought at level 30 were challenging. I have not ran that mission a single time since the game allowed us to have Auras at level 30...it's no longer a stepping stone in the game, there is no longer a sense of accomplishment associated with getting auras.

Telling us to self impose challenges on us and then telling us to go get our shiny after that accomplishment is achieved is straight up not the same and does not come with that same sense of accomplishment, that feeling is just not there when we *know* that we could have had any of those at any given time. I get that you don't understand it and it is impossible to explain if it is something that you are not already aware of and part of. It quite frankly is something that just can't be explained because there are no words in the human language that can explain it.

 

Elitism has absolutely nothing to do with this and I really wish people would get that out of their damn heads. It feels like our point of view on this is just being swept aside and chalked up to elitism. If that was the case, I would not be struggling so damn hard to find a compromise here and I sure as hell would not have suggested that players can have the same thing at the merit vendor.

 

To answer your last question, having gated things in games are part of what makes people want to play them, almost every game you play has this sense of risk vs reward to them....even console games. This is why I did not enjoy playing on the Cake Server, omfg that was just plain stupid...they literally gave you anything and everything straight out of the damn gate. There was absolute zero sense of accomplishment in that game. Would you want to go play on a serer that gives you auto level 50's, fully geared out, with full incarnates, al of the accolades, all of the temp powers and then turned lose? Probably not, right? How would you feel if Homecoming did that, but the difference is, they force it on you.

Think about that for a moment...how would you truly feel about that? I am willing to bet that you would go to the forums and be like, "HEY! WTF??? Can we find a way for everybody to be happy and maybe give us something to work for in this game? Having everything handed to us really sucks the fun out of it!"

And then people respond to you with, "You have an elitist issue...if you want those things rewarded to you, then simply refuse to use the extra powers, delete your enhancements, do not use your accolades and run the missions like normal...problem solved."

 

How would that make you feel? Defeated I would imagine. Well guess what, that is exactly how I feel right now, just not on that same level of extreme.

 

Hopefully I have put this in a way that helps you understand. If not, I at least tried to calmly explain it to you and I can feel good in knowing that I gave it my best shot.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Solarverse

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

 elitism

Elitism... sigh...that is exactly what I am talking about. Thanks for blowing us off with that dismissive term. Appreciate that.

[jubakumbi]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

Elitism... sigh...that is exactly what I am talking about. Thanks for blowing us off with that dismissive term. Appreciate that.

You are right, much more like martyrdom IMO.

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Again, I get that your trying to argue that personal fulfillment isn't something you should be aiming to attain from a game

 

No, I'm arguing that personal fulfillment shouldn't be something one expects from the predefined rewards within the game.  Personal fulfillment comes from meeting one's own goals and feeling rewarded for that, not from meeting someone else's goals and being rewarded.  Game rewards can never fill the same role as personal rewards.  Enjoying what one has accomplished for one's own satisfaction, not for a shiny digital representation of a developer saying "Good job".  What we get from the game, intellectually, emotionally, not what the game offers us in rewards.

 

And "new" content is only so new, since it's only new within the context of that specific game, and what newness it offers fades rapidly.  This isn't a model for retention, nor for player happiness.  Both have to come from giving players more than shinies.  They have to come from giving players a sense of personal gratification, from them having more emotional investment in the game and feeling a sense of inner reward when they do things.

 

The fulfillment of in-game rewards is fleeting.  The fulfillment of setting our own goals and achieving them is permanent.

 

25 minutes ago, Naraka said:

understand that people are not arguing that at all.

 

I know what the topic is, thanks.

 

26 minutes ago, Naraka said:

But why didn't you actually correct me? Instead you pointed out I was wrong and left it there. You don't seem willing to actually emphasize or reason with your opposition.

 

I did.  If you're asking why I'm not discussing pharmaceutical moderation of brain chemistry, or therapeutic methods, or something similar, because I'm not dragging the topic off in that direction.  I'm responding to your points and keeping the discussion relevant to the topic, how various game rewards and content are valued and how they might be used.

 

29 minutes ago, Naraka said:

But real talk, I didn't actually set up a trap card or anything, I just used the wrong term but you resorting to a literal semantics argument just illustrates it is likely no use discussing anything with you unless you agree with it.

 

Okay.

[Leogunner]

4 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Telling us to self impose challenges on us and then telling us to go get our shiny after that accomplishment is achieved is straight up not the same and does not come with that same sense of accomplishment, that feeling is just not there when we *know* that we could have had any of those at any given time.

As someone who does use self-imposed limitations to motivate myself to play, you're right in saying it's not the same sense of accomplishment.  It's more a sense of discipline than anything only that that discipline has no pay-off.  

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

Elitism... sigh...that is exactly what I am talking about. Thanks for blowing us off with that dismissive term. Appreciate that.

I'm unsure why you think I'm blowing you off, I'm merely using the terms both sides of the argument are using.  Pro-OP use terms like "grind" and "goals" and Con-OP use terms like "elitism" and "inaccessibility".

 

I am actually for having some more content with certain things unlocked as a reward.  Not because it gives me warm fuzzies but rather because it gets me and others to want to play the content.  When you put these little "sites to visit" throughout the content, you promote traffic through it and more people play it.  I'm pretty sure there are some newer players that don't even know there is a mission to unlock auras. 

[Solarverse]

4 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

As someone who does use self-imposed limitations to motivate myself to play, you're right in saying it's not the same sense of accomplishment.  It's more a sense of discipline than anything only that that discipline has no pay-off.  

I'm unsure why you think I'm blowing you off, I'm merely using the terms both sides of the argument are using.  Pro-OP use terms like "grind" and "goals" and Con-OP use terms like "elitism" and "inaccessibility".

 

I am actually for having some more content with certain things unlocked as a reward.  Not because it gives me warm fuzzies but rather because it gets me and others to want to play the content.  When you put these little "sites to visit" throughout the content, you promote traffic through it and more people play it.  I'm pretty sure there are some newer players that don't even know there is a mission to unlock auras. 

I really do appreciate you clearing that up. Thank you, Leogunner.  🙂

[Naraka]

5 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

No, I'm arguing that personal fulfillment shouldn't be something one expects from the predefined rewards within the game.  Personal fulfillment comes from meeting one's own goals and feeling rewarded for that, not from meeting someone else's goals and being rewarded.  Game rewards can never fill the same role as personal rewards.  Enjoying what one has accomplished for one's own satisfaction, not for a shiny digital representation of a developer saying "Good job".  What we get from the game, intellectually, emotionally, not what the game offers us in rewards.

 

Pretty similar to my conclusion, although maybe I just view your conclusion differently.

 

Overall, I don't think such a mechanic can work in a game like this. Setting your own goals would require far more creativity a free form system than CoX can accomplish. Something like Minecraft would fit that mold. But again, in not arguing for personal fulfillment, I'm appealing to retention and incentive. 

 

10 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

And "new" content is only so new, since it's only new within the context of that specific game, and what newness it offers fades rapidly.  This isn't a model for retention, nor for player happiness.  Both have to come from giving players more than shinies.  They have to come from giving players a sense of personal gratification, from them having more emotional investment in the game and feeling a sense of inner reward when they do things.

 

 

And this is only relevant if true personal fulfillment was the point I was arguing.

 

12 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

I did.  If you're asking why I'm not discussing pharmaceutical moderation of brain chemistry, or therapeutic methods, or something similar, because I'm not dragging the topic off in that direction.  I'm responding to your points and keeping the discussion relevant to the topic, how various game rewards and content are valued and how they might be used.

 

 

Okay.

Are you really going to make this point?

 

No you didn't correct me because if you did, the term "analogy" would fix this whole tangent you went on then accuse me of derailing to brain chemistry. No, I asked you to not be disingenuous about an analogy and actually discuss the point about lack of motivation and it's connection with targeted incentives, not morally or semantically castigate about my position.

[Leogunner]

20 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

The fulfillment of in-game rewards is fleeting.  The fulfillment of setting our own goals and achieving them is permanent.

Funny you mention that.

 

I've actually been away for work related things for almost 3 weeks now and before that, I hadn't played the game for like a month before that so I've been eager to come back to the game.  Once I got back though, I decided to play FFXI because I had been catching some Youtube videos about it and redownloaded it once I got home.  Hadn't played it in years so decided to join a new linkshell.  Long story short, I have so much old content to wade through to unlock and build up my character I had to ask for some direction from some vets.  I kept hearing gushes about how nostalgic helping me through the old stuff is as they hadn't done it themselves in years.

 

Moral: there can also be fulfillment in those in-game rewards when you're helping others get it.  I know...."Psh! Helping other players in an MMO!? Not in my CoX!".  I'm not advocating for old-skool questing for CoX, just making an opposing point here.  If anything, FFXI's quest system is so confusing, you either need to run it with a guide or a player versed in it.  A lot of it isn't even hard since the level gates are mostly lifted on a lot of stuff.

[Luminara]

7 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Telling us to self impose challenges on us

 

Again, that's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that there are levels of challenge that you're not addressing, in sub-optimal character builds.  Not SO-only builds, or no purple builds, but actual, real, playable builds which are unique or unusual in some way.

 

I built my sentinel as a dual purpose ranged/melee character.  My standard attack chain is Stunning Shot/Fistful of Arrows/Blazing Arrow, and I have Rain of Arrows if I need it.  I also have a complete, fully functional melee attack chain, Cross Punch/Air Superiority/Sting of the Wasp, with The Lotus Drops when I want to use it.  This is not a normal sentinel build.  This is not a +4/x8 build.  This build has three purple sets and a Winter set, both ATO sets, more unique IOs than I can shake a stick at... but it's still a sub-optimal build.  Do you know what else it is?

Rewarding.  I made this.  I walked the miles, I earned the levels, I made it to 50 and I kitted her out with all of the shiniest enhancements (starting at level 7).  She's fun to play, even if she's not a patch on my Staff/Willpower brute, and I feel a great sense of personal gratification when I log in with her.  So what if I'll never have all of the badges.  So what if I can't solo an AV with her.  So what.  I still did something that made me feel good.  I took a theoretically purely ranged character and added melee combat to it, and I made it work well enough to be enjoyable to play.

 

This is the challenge in the game.  This is where the reward is.  This is what I want to share with you.  You can feel like you've accomplished something with this, even if there's no badge for it.  There are potentially dozens, maybe even hundreds of ways to do this.  The game has challenge everywhere, and none of it is self-imposed, it's inherent in the little things like archetype modifiers and role expectations, and meeting those challenges, beating them to a bloody pulp with your brain, that's immensely rewarding.

 

23 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

And then people respond to you with, "You have an elitist issue...if you want those things rewarded to you, then simply refuse to use the extra powers, delete your enhancements, do not use your accolades and run the missions like normal...problem solved."

 

I

 

did

 

not

 

say

 

that

 

.

 

😛

 

25 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

How would that make you feel? Defeated I would imagine.

 

We all find our own modes of gratification, I understand that, but I'm trying to help you find one, not abuse you.

 

And, you should know me well enough by now, I don't accept defeat.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I accept it, embrace it as a chance to learn something, and move on, but I am never defeated.  No power in the 'verse can stop me.

 

33 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Hopefully I have put this in a way that helps you understand. If not, I at least tried to calmly explain it to you and I can feel good in knowing that I gave it my best shot.

 

And I'm explaining to you that I know where other gates are, if you're willing to explore them.  We can explore them together (if you're on in the middle of the night.  sorry, but prepaid Verizon data doesn't work for MMORPGs unless it's after 2 a.m.), or we can talk about them, or we can just move on.  Up to you.  I'm here for you if you want to take that journey, though.

[GM Tock]

1 hour ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

Thought:  Do we have a place where topics like that can be discussed?  Is mental health an acceptable topic to speak about in Off-Topic without concerns of thread-locking?

@GM Tahquitz; may we have your input on that?

Off Topic would be fine, as long as it stays out of the religion/politic arena.

[Lockpick]

I just finished reading this thread.  I find it interesting because I had just posted a suggestion recently that is on the topic of grind and rewards.  I always felt the Live Dev team had missed the boat on not having an accolade power for finishing the shadow shard TFs and I also miss the grind to a certain extent.  I came up with a grind with rewards and posted in the Suggestion forum and it is not popular at all.  It seems grinding is a thing of the past...

 

BTW, I don't want to grind all the time either, but I certainly wouldn't mind some challenges or content that provides unique rewards.  I don't subscribe to the theory that everyone has to have all the rewards, but I do subscribe to the theory that everyone should have the equal opportunity to pursue the rewards.  There are several accolade powers I will never get because I don't think the reward is worthwhile, while I always try to get the 4 passive accolade powers.

 

 

[Grindingsucks]

On 11/11/2020 at 6:03 PM, CrudeVileTerror said:

@Piecemeal:  Gonna guess it's the stuff related to the Cadavers/Abominations not being adequately demonstrated to be robots made of cybernetic replacement limbs covered in dead flesh, in the early missions of your hero arc.

Specifically:   The Cadavers/Abominations are not undead.  They shouldn't be able to communicate or articulate feelings like pain.  That sort of thing.

I know it's a bit of a sticking point for me, at least, but I tried to articulate that in the appropriate feedback thread(s).

 

Which, by the way, to circle back from this off-topic tangent; if people want to see the work @Piecemeal is doing on the Beta server, and then provide feedback, please go here:  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/23361-focused-feedback-the-graveyard-shift-hero-story-arc-level-20-29/ and here:  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/23362-focused-feedback-the-freakish-lab-of-dr-vahzilok-villain-story-arc-level-30-39/

(and just tangenting for a moment longer to say:  Yes!  The work you've done on visual assets so far is pretty awesome, Piecemeal.  You definitely deserve praise for that!)

 

 

Back on topic for this thread . . . 

There seems to be some contention over what to even DEFINE "grind" as between some folks here.

I would like to propose the following visual metaphor for gameplay grind:

(courtesy of @Healix)

 

If something in the game makes you feel like the Lead Shocker there, then -that- is grind.

Gameplay with long-term goals and payoff isn't (in my view, at least) the same thing as grind.

Grind is a non-consensual and unpleasant pain.

Gameplay is enjoyable.

And, yes, both are completely subjective.

I both accept and strongly endorse this definition.  Never has an image so powerfully conveyed the way that grinding feels to me. 👍

[DSorrow]

7 hours ago, Solarverse said:

having gated things in games are part of what makes people want to play them

This is the generalization I disagree with the most. Having some gated things is most likely good, but how much and what those things are will be subjective to each person. Personally, I view any gate that's not unique or a challenge in any way the same way I view generic household chores: an annoying necessity that distracts me from the stuff I actually enjoy. There's no dopamine for me in a cape mission, just the same temporary relief I get from loading the dishwasher and knowing it's done until I have to do it again.

 

Only quite recently I've understood that for a long time I had a really hard time distinguishing between the actual dopamine hits and the sense of relief after getting rid of a checklist item I didn't like, but now that I can separate them, relief is not a feeling I want to play video games for. I'm guessing this is something pretty close to what @Luminaraalludes to: checking off chores only feels good temporarily at the time of completion (a pessimist would say you actually get a stress hormone hit while doing it and get back to normal at completion, which feels good only by contrast...) whereas doing something that promotes personal fulfillment gives that dopamine hit all the way through.

 

7 hours ago, Solarverse said:

If that was the case, I would not be struggling so damn hard to find a compromise here and I sure as hell would not have suggested that players can have the same thing at the merit vendor.

What about having the costume unlocks available at the P2W for free instead of being automatic? Then we'd actually be very close to your original idea of not having to work for those things unless you want to. I still don't quite understand why other people should have to pay merits for items you want to unlock the old fashioned way.

[Solarverse]

8 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

This is the generalization I disagree with the most. Having some gated things is most likely good, but how much and what those things are will be subjective to each person.

It was said subjectively, as in that is the reason why people like me play games, not generalizing at all.

8 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

 

What about having the costume unlocks available at the P2W for free instead of being automatic? Then we'd actually be very close to your original idea of not having to work for those things unless you want to. I still don't quite understand why other people should have to pay merits for items you want to unlock the old fashioned way.

That sounds an aweful lot like, "If you want to gate stuff, gate it for yourself and just don't put on a cape until after you ran the cape mission."

I covered why that is just not the same earlier when I said...

 

8 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Telling us to self impose challenges on us and then telling us to go get our shiny after that accomplishment is achieved is straight up not the same and does not come with that same sense of accomplishment, that feeling is just not there when we *know* that we could have had any of those at any given time.