The Sybil Costume

[borgking001a]

When are we going to get this costume for player use?   https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Sybils 

[Vindicator]

An excllent suggestion 🙂

[Greycat]

I think there's generally been technical reasons for us not having  it (or having it yet.)

 

Not that I'd be against getting it, mind you.

[Purrfekshawn]

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

I think there's generally been technical reasons for us not having  it (or having it yet.)

 

Not that I'd be against getting it, mind you.

No there are not. For some reason Homecoming team just doesn't add more pieces to the Costume Editor right now.

[aethereal]

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

I think there's generally been technical reasons for us not having  it (or having it yet.)

 

Not that I'd be against getting it, mind you.

Back in the NCSoft days, there was some general sense that people shouldn't have too many animated costume parts in part because it might be hard for lower-end machines to handle lots of animation in groups and so forth.  And I'm sure that you can find people on HC who are still playing on decade-old machines that might have that kind of problem.  But it's clearly much less of a problem in the year of our lord 2020 than it was in 2008 or whatever.

 

It is doubtless also the case that those various capes would clip against various things.  But capes do too, so.

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

Back in the NCSoft days, there was some general sense that people shouldn't have too many animated costume parts in part because it might be hard for lower-end machines to handle lots of animation in groups and so forth. 

I remember back during the early Hami raids, when the zone limit was 240, everyone was expected to have a "Hami raid outfit" that had no animated costume parts and no auras specifically for this reason; the lag got horrible enough just from everyone throwing powers around, no need to aggravate the problem.

[El D]

While clipping is certainly an issue with the Sybil pieces, they're already usable in the costume creator (as per Titan Icon) - they're just tagged as NPC only.

 

 

Granted, this means absolutely nothing in-regard to the devs granting players access to them. Given their official policy regarding players not being allowed to play as in-game NPCs, it seem very unlikely that we'd get access to these pieces (and if we did, it wouldn't be any time Soon™).

[Purrfekshawn]

7 hours ago, El D said:

While clipping is certainly an issue with the Sybil pieces, they're already usable in the costume creator (as per Titan Icon) - they're just tagged as NPC only.

 

Granted, this means absolutely nothing in-regard to the devs granting players access to them. Given their official policy regarding players not being allowed to play as in-game NPCs, it seem very unlikely that we'd get access to these pieces (and if we did, it wouldn't be any time Soon™).

Why nothing? We stated in a thread about population decline that if something doesn't develop it DOES degrade. The fact HC team doesn't add player-requested stuff leads to population decline. After they breaketh HyperKreator last spring l even stopped playing this game much. A fortiori unlocking NPC-parts is something that can easily be done in 1-2 clicks. We on my private server did that a long ago, and that is depicted in my Avatar. You can see Talon Banshee Dress and Veil Crown styles on that extreamly, amazingly cute girlie, the Our Imperial Majesty Empress Elaina Inversonia von Heidi de Nibeashe la Lerella Linda Celia Dimensina the First.

 

Some styles are also still locked because of SCORE team unattention to them, but that's not their fault, considering huge amount of effort they put into the SCORE private server project. And it's easily fixable on your private server, just remove NPC-only flag. On HC however, where players don't have access to the serverside (unless We're missing something), it's a pain in the rear. Here's the example:

 

A fortiori HC team constantly makes Costume Contests. Don't they feel that these Contests will be a load move interesting and shiny with MORE costume pieces added. And without them CC's are just unfinished. If We were in that team We would _SURELY_ feel that, We are amazed why no one of them does.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Purrfekshawn

[Purrfekshawn]

Yeah, it gets even weirder considering how many Base pieces Homecoming Team added to the Base Editor, and some extra patterns were added to Costume Editor (e.g. Widget Patterns) in the distant past. And yet no extra costume pieces of desired need!

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, Purrfekshawn said:

 The fact HC team doesn't add player-requested stuff leads to population decline.

 

... *Small volunteer team.* Keep repeating that when you want to say things like this. Adding *anything* takes more time than it did on live.

 

This is not Cryptic/NCNorCal/Paragon with full time paid developers and support staff. They'll do what they can, as they can, and as they see it as not detrimental to the game or their talks with NC.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Greycat

[Purrfekshawn]

3 minutes ago, Greycat said:

... *Small volunteer team.* Keep repeating that when you want to say things like this. Adding *anything* takes more time than it did on live.

 

This is not Cryptic/NCNorCal/Paragon with full time paid developers and support staff.

But l can enable ALL and EVERY of NPC-exclusive part on my Private Server within 5 minutes. To the "costume.bin" file. And it was fully accessible via ingame costume-editor. Mah AVATAR pic proves it.

 

l'm aware that adding new GEOMETRIES is a hell of a pain. Any other things, like adding new textures for existing geometries or enabling for players NPC-exclusive geometries is easy as heck.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Purrfekshawn

[Jimmy]

Yes, but we have a quality bar.

[Purrfekshawn]

1 minute ago, Jimmy said:

Yes, but we have a quality bar.

Quality bar? And what drinks are in assortment in that bar?

[Greycat]

Just now, Purrfekshawn said:

But l can enably ALL and EVERY of NPC-exclusive part on my Private Server within 5 minutes. To the "costume.bin" file. And it was fully accessible via ingame costume-editor. Mah AVATAR pic proves it.

To be blunt? I don't care what you do on your private server. I'm not saying that to be an ass, I'm saying it because what goes on there is ... pretty irrelevant here. The HC team has shown they're concerned about how things actually *turn out* when they're available. They've earned my trust with what they expect the end results to be. I may not always *agree,* but I know it's not just "ooh I can turn this on" and spaghetti-against-wall development, seeing what sticks and just taking the resulting mess of what didn't as fine.

 

[Purrfekshawn]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

To be blunt? I don't care what you do on your private server. I'm not saying that to be an ass, I'm saying it because what goes on there is ... pretty irrelevant here. The HC team has shown they're concerned about how things actually *turn out* when they're available. They've earned my trust with what they expect the end results to be. I may not always *agree,* but I know it's not just "ooh I can turn this on" and spaghetti-against-wall development, seeing what sticks and just taking the resulting mess of what didn't as fine.

 

Maybe adding some stuff may produce some unintended side effects, and one of these effects l encountered when Serverside Validation strengthened after spring Costume Editor update (some previously valid costumes l was making through HyperKreator became invalid).

 

But l can not see any possibility of scenario that after enabling Roman Sandal style for Male characters all Homecoming servers blow up producing 50 megaton explosions each!

[Greycat]

Just now, Purrfekshawn said:

But l can not see any possibility of scenario that after enabling Roman Sandal style for Male characters all Homecoming servers blow up producing 50 megaton explosions each!

... Don't give them to the Rikti drones.

 

(Granted, the "continuous Rikti drone explosion"was one bug that had me laughing for a while...)

[Jimmy]

3 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Maybe adding some stuff may produce some unintended side effects, and one of these effects l encountered when Serverside Validation strengthened after spring Costume Editor update (some previously valid costumes l was making through HyperKreator became invalid).

 

But l can not see any possibility of scenario that after enabling Roman Sandal style for Male characters all Homecoming servers blow up producing 50 megaton explosions each!

They were never valid to begin with.

 

Please stop derailing every costume related suggestion thread with your agenda. We've seen your posts many times already. Forcing us to see them again does nothing to help your cause.

[Purrfekshawn]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

... Don't give them to the Rikti drones.

 

(Granted, the "continuous Rikti drone explosion"was one bug that had me laughing for a while...)

Yah, that's fair reason indeed.

[CrudeVileTerror]

@Jimmy, I know this particular topic is one that's probably a bit of a sore spot for people, but there's definitely a disconnect taking place which I -think- could be bridged with greater communication.

 

You've mentioned "quality" as a barrier in the past and again here, but I think this whole dialogue could benefit from hearing from yourself or some other members of the Homecoming Team as to the details on this barrier from the Team's perspective.  

We've seen that some pieces are in the wrong places, and that there are some gaps, so without geometry fixes those pieces may never meet the Team's bar.  And without the appropriate software tools, those fixes may never be possible.

But is there some meeting in the middle that could be possible?  Is there anything the community can do to help make some progress on this front?  If the tools never become available, how long is the Team ready to wait until they're willing to make some concessions on their bar for the good of the community?

 

Of course; time is a limited resource, and communication does take time, especially when trying to obtain levels of clarity that can meaningfully overcome confusion and ambiguity.  And right now the Team is clearly focused on Issue 27.

No complaints there.  You have your priorities, and they're yours to make.

But maybe you'll consider it worthwhile to take some time in the future and really talk with us on this matter.

It's certainly something which members of this community are DEEPLY passionate about.

Hell.  It's even -the whole game- for some of us, and we would really like to see positive developments, or at least some forward-moving dialogues with the Team on the subject.

 

I also understand the possibility that intellectual property ownership and non-disclosure may come in to play here.  So, if nothing else, if you can comment on whether that's a part of the Team's barrier, that alone might help.

 

Thanks for your time and consideration.

[Purrfekshawn]

27 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

@Jimmy, I know this particular topic is one that's probably a bit of a sore spot for people, but there's definitely a disconnect taking place which I -think- could be bridged with greater communication.

 

-||-

 

Thanks for your time and consideration.

Here:

This my post contains styles, that l found could easily get their NPC-only flag disabled, without producing gaps and/or clip with aything and/or be in the wrong place. Perhaps you can find more & add them to the list.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Purrfekshawn

[Purrfekshawn]

14 hours ago, Jimmy said:

-||-

We think some of Homecoming team could launch a Discussion Topic, similar to Weekly Discussion topics, in which players could suggest styles available to NPC only, that are to be ported to Player characters. Then the GM would verify that style really can be ported and doesn't produce gap/horrible clipping and add that to the list at start of the topic. In the end the list at starting post would like:

Quote

Male:

 

Geometry: Head -> Standard -> Hair -> Caesar
Geometry: Head -> Standard -> Ear -> K9 Ear
Geometry: Head -> Standard -> Detail 1 -> Arena Attendant Headset*
Geometry: Head -> Standard -> Detail 1 -> Villain Revolutionary
Geometry: Head -> Standard -> Detail 2 -> Villain Revolutionary
Geometry: Head -> Standard -> Detail 2 -> Imperial Defense

...

 

Female:

 

Geometry: Head -> Standard -> Hair -> Seer A
Geometry: Head -> Standard -> Hair -> Seer B
Geometry: Head -> Standard -> Hair -> Talons_03
Geometry: Head -> Standard -> Hair -> Bella

...

 

Huge:

 

Geometry: Head -> Standard -> Detail 1 -> Halo
Geometry: Head -> Standard -> Detail 1 -> Arena Attendant Headset*
Geometry: Head -> Standard -> Detail 2 -> Marauder Beard

...

That dev-made list would contain pieces, those pass the quality bar. At the end of discussion when topic is closed - the ingame serverside and clientside "costume.bin" files will be updated, with NPC-flag removed from the styles those pass the quality bar, and the flag left untouched on styled those do not.

 

[Player2]

On 11/14/2020 at 6:39 PM, Jimmy said:

Yes, but we have a quality bar.

I would love to hear the details about what puts something over or under this bar.

[Glacier Peak]

22 minutes ago, Player2 said:

I would love to hear the details about what puts something over or under this bar.

For starters, it actually works. Then they would likely go from there to other quality of life implementations. 

[El D]

@Glacier Peak is right.

 

Should've included this in my original post (beyond Homecoming's 'Players not playing as NPCs' policy) but a lot of the NPC only/Dev Edit mode costume pieces are in their own overly specific categories, attached to unfitting anchor points, and/or just flat-out broken when used in-conjunction with regular player accessible options. Given that these were the only costumes that the NPCs were ever going to have, the Live Devs basically slapped any custom pieces into whatever open anchor point/section was convenient or unused for that particular NPC. For example, the 'Sybil Robe' is a giant single piece, takes up an unfitting section (Chest Detail), and was made to work only with one equally specific belt option (hence the massive empty space where the Sybil Belt goes). If it had been made for player use in-mind it would have been broken up into multiple individual pieces composing a whole set (likely chest piece, arm piece(s), skirt section, and cape/tassels), formatted to different anchor points for each option of the set, and made without the glaring empty space that requires it to use the Belt option from the same set or look broken/unfinished.

 

The Live Devs never considered these pieces as 'player options' and so didn't make them in a modular fashion that'd work the way everything else in the player-end costume creator does. The effort and work hours that would be required to format them into an effective player option similar to the existing costume sets is the Homecoming quality bar (as @Jimmy posted), rather than just toggling the switch and letting people run around with poorly organized, unfinished, clipping, 'not made for player use' options. Sure, as they are now the NPC pieces can be kludged together into something neat, but - and I say this as someone who'd totally enjoy playing with the NPC pieces as they are now - that would be sloppy, unprofessional, and just look... bad.

Edited November 16, 2020 by El D

[ZacKing]

On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2020 at 7:48 AM, aethereal said:

Back in the NCSoft days, there was some general sense that people shouldn't have too many animated costume parts in part because it might be hard for lower-end machines to handle lots of animation in groups and so forth.  And I'm sure that you can find people on HC who are still playing on decade-old machines that might have that kind of problem.  But it's clearly much less of a problem in the year of our lord 2020 than it was in 2008 or whatever.

 

It is doubtless also the case that those various capes would clip against various things.  But capes do too, so.

They certainly didn't have a problem adding more and more VFX spam, so this couldn't be too much of a concern to them.