Get rid of the damn tohit cap

[Vanden]

I am sick to death of this 95% chance to hit cap. This is not fun. It is, in fact, fun poison, reducing the amount of fun I have when I'm not arbitrarily missing attacks even though I've done nothing wrong with my build. Even XCOM, the patron saint of games that f*** you over with RNG, lets you reach 100% chance to hit.

[Blackfeather]

I'll do you one better: make all attacks, whether from enemies or from players automatically hit.

 

I'll let the implications of that, and the potential changes the game would have to make as a whole as a result settle in. 😈

[Vanden]

Sure, and we can just scale the damage before resistance is applied to whatever the final chance to hit would've been, outside of the cap or floor.

[Razor Cure]

Let's not. really. No way.

It makes zero sense at ALL for attacks to essentially be 'auto-hit.' Just because you got a bad run of RNG.

It is so easy to get acc bonuses (and to hit from tactics/kismet), that we basically sit at the 95% cap anyway. If we could get 100% chance, why bother having Accuracy as an enhance-able stat at all? Make the game like Champions Online where you never miss. Ever.

Also, assume this somehow went ahead, giving us ways to get to 100 to hit..then we should have ways to get -100 To hit, right? An AV putting a to hit debuff on you..and you go down to -100 Hit chance (because hardly anything resist -to hit, and the power would have AV values). Wont that be FUN?

And what about baddies with 100 to hit? That is only fair right. So an AV using Aim/BU can NOT miss someone using Elude? Awesome! Let's make those kinda powers even more useless.

Sarcasm aside, No. Attacks SHOULD be able to miss.

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

If we could get 100% chance, why bother having Accuracy as an enhance-able stat at all?

To get to that 100% hit chance, Mr. Strawman.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Vanden

[Razor Cure]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

To get to that 100% hit chance. Obviously.

Which would be HOW hard, in teams with a few Tactics uses? The game at 50 is already pretty easy..and you want a full team of people who cant miss? Genius!

[Greycat]

The only time we should see 100% tohit is doing things like fighting fires or shooting at glowies in missions. Things that aren't moving, that you really don't have a reason to miss. (And even then, AFAIC, you should be  "out of combat.")

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Which would be HOW hard, in teams with a few Tactics uses? The game at 50 is already pretty easy..and you want a full team of people who cant miss? Genius!

And why would that be bad?

[Razor Cure]

See reasons I already said.

Honestly, your ideas are normal logical and well thought out..this just sounds like a temper tantrum because you missed 5 attacks in a row.

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

See reasons I already said.

You didn't give me any reasons, just a bunch of strawmans and slippery slopes, like that suddenly accuracy enhancement doesn't have any value or that the accuracy floor shouldn't exist either.

[Razor Cure]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

You didn't give me any reasons, just a bunch of strawmans and slippery slopes, like that suddenly accuracy enhancement doesn't have any value or that the accuracy floor shouldn't exist either.

Well since you are apparently too worked up to SEE reasons in my first reply, how about you take your bat and ball and go chill out for a bit?

It is a stupid idea that breaks parts of the game designs and WELL established mechanics.

Again, go play Champions if you cant handle a few misses.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Sure, and we can just scale the damage before resistance is applied to whatever the final chance to hit would've been, outside of the cap or floor.

o.O 

 

I've one character that wants to know how that would scale exactly. 

 

My Cold/Ice/Power Defender.  He'd pop PBU+Tactics+Aim and watch his To Hit turn light blue in Attributes.

 

I think you'd have to entirely redo the game if you messed with the Attack Mechanics this thoroughly.  So regardless of anything else it isn't going to happen.

 

 

 

 

[Vanden]

39 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Well since you are apparently too worked up to SEE reasons in my first reply, how about you take your bat and ball and go chill out for a bit?

It is a stupid idea that breaks parts of the game designs and WELL established mechanics.

Again, go play Champions if you cant handle a few misses.

I know you think you wrote reasons for the chance to hit cap to be 95%, but you didn't. I'm serious. The closest you came was:

 

1 hour ago, Razor Cure said:

It makes zero sense at ALL for attacks to essentially be 'auto-hit.'

But you know what? Plenty of conveniences in this game make "zero sense." It makes "zero sense" for a hero to buy enhancements for a villain to make them stronger, but there's nothing stopping you. It makes "zero sense" for a time police organization trying to stop the literal apocalypse to recruit fresh heroes that are still focusing on stopping muggings and drug deals, but there's nothing stopping that happening. It makes "zero sense" for radiation, well documented in real life for being anathema to living organisms, to be able to buff and heal heroes, but there are multiple powers that do so. It makes "zero sense" for a player to put a wizard's robe up for auction and another player to buy it as a robot arm. It makes "zero sense" to send a highly-trained soldier to fight a flying brick with the powers of Zeus, but that was literally a mission in the game for years. So while it might make "zero sense" to you for it to be possible to attack well enough that missing is literally impossible, that's not a particularly good reason to disallow that.

 

Maybe I am worked up because I keep missing big attacks with major tohit buffs behind them, and sure, I could take a break until I calm down. But I know that after I do that and come back to the game I'm just gonna keep missing my attacks through no fault of my own or cleverness on the part of my enemies, and I'm just gonna get mad again. There's a reason Champions Online built its combat system around never missing. Because missing sucks!

Edited November 18, 2020 by Vanden

[Troo]

What's XCOM?

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

What's XCOM?

The patron saint of games that f*** you over with RNG.

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Vanden

[Troo]

[Coyote]

26 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Not sure what it is, but it's pretty creepy.

 

The game functions better with a chance to miss, so that you cannot guarantee that all mobs in a spawn get affected by a major debuff or control, so that you can't plan an attack sequence in complete safety. Allowing 100% chance to hit on attacks that aren't deliberately designed to be auto-hit will have lot and lots of ramifications, and I think it's not worth the time and effort to look into what they might be just to avoid the very occasional miss.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Coyote said:

The game functions better with a chance to miss, so that you cannot guarantee that all mobs in a spawn get affected by a major debuff or control, so that you can't plan an attack sequence in complete safety. Allowing 100% chance to hit on attacks that aren't deliberately designed to be auto-hit will have lot and lots of ramifications, and I think it's not worth the time and effort to look into what they might be just to avoid the very occasional miss.

The ramifications are that enemies will die approximately 5.3% faster than they do currently. We can mitigate this by just increasing mob HP by 4-5%. The only other potential effect is reducing the random chance of a control or debuff missing a mob, which in the worst case can lead to a player death. Which would have, again, due to no fault of the player or strength of the enemy.

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

The only time we should see 100% tohit is doing things like fighting fires or shooting at glowies in missions. Things that aren't moving, that you really don't have a reason to miss. (And even then, AFAIC, you should be  "out of combat.")

So this should equally make attacking a held or immobilized target a 100% chance to hit? There are AVs who would melt PCs by blowing a hold or immob past their defense and then pounding them with their overpowered attacks.

[Coyote]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

The ramifications are that enemies will die approximately 5.3% faster than they do currently. We can mitigate this by just increasing mob HP by 4-5%. The only other potential effect is reducing the random chance of a control or debuff missing a mob, which in the worst case can lead to a player death. Which would have, again, due to no fault of the player or strength of the enemy.

 

The chance of a debuff or controll missing an enemy and leading to death, is exactly what makes the game more interesting. Because it's extremely rare to be in a situation where missing gets you killed without a chance to remedy the situation... throw another control, or debuff, or use an inspiration, or just retreat. But the difference where you need to remedy a dangerous situation, versus not having to worry about a dangerous situation arising 5% of the time (or more, if there are multiple dangerous mobs in a spawn), is a huge difference in playstyle, far more than a 5.3% increase in damage.

Basically, if you can AoE control with 100% guarantee of success, followed by several other AoEs that also can't miss, then you can set up a push-button situation at the start of every fight knowing that it will work as planned. And then if the situation leads to enough damage to kill all the minions, then you know that you can start every fight with a number of powers used, and no minions left. No pressure, no risk. With a chance to miss, you might miss an important mob, and get punished, which makes you pay attention and react... a game where we kill as many spawns as we do, and doesn't introduce at least a very small element of risk, is a game that will become stale due to a lack of risk.

[Coyote]

3 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

So this should equally make attacking a held or immobilized target a 100% chance to hit? There are AVs who would melt PCs by blowing a hold or immob past their defense and then pounding them with their overpowered attacks.

 

No, he didn't say mezzed targets. He said targets that don't normally move, like destructible objects in a mission. And also, if out of combat, which the AV wouldn't be.

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Coyote said:

The chance of a debuff or controll missing an enemy and leading to death, is exactly what makes the game more interesting.

It's funny, every time I miss an Assassin's Strike from Hidden, or a BU+Aim-buffed snipe, my muscles tense, my blood pressure spikes, and then I think of this old justification, and it just makes me madder. No, this doesn't make the game more interesting. It just makes fights take longer.

 

5 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Basically, if you can AoE control with 100% guarantee of success, followed by several other AoEs that also can't miss, then you can set up a push-button situation at the start of every fight knowing that it will work as planned. And then if the situation leads to enough damage to kill all the minions, then you know that you can start every fight with a number of powers used, and no minions left. No pressure, no risk.

And what is the problem with that? Is this not a game of numbers? If I spend the time to design and implement a build that reaches the performance caps, and a plan that puts that performance to good use, am I not entitled to the expectation of success?

[Tater Todd]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

The patron saint of games that f*** you over with RNG.

 

As a Stalker player I felt this...FELT THIS IN MY SOULLLL. lmao

[ScarySai]

Bad luck on the pylon, eh?

 

I'm half convinced at this point that every time I get close to a potential record-breaking time, an invisible -tohit buff kicks my character in the balls and causes my next five heavy hitters to whiff.

[Number Six]

This is something I've kicked around a bit internally, but with a twist. The idea is to make to-hit chances above 95% possible, but not easy. It wouldn't simply be a matter of just getting 5% more tohit, but applying some sort of severe diminishing returns curve for every point past 95% you push it.

 

Ideally it would be tuned so that if you're a level 50 in Atlas smacking hellions around, you get either 100% tohit or close to it. But if you're fighting a +4 AV, it would be nearly impossible to get close to 100 unless you have massive buffs. In between, could be something you could choose to build for -- maybe put all of those purple +Acc bonuses to use somehow.

 

It's not a very well fleshed out idea at this point, just something that I threw out there and got some commentary on.