Get rid of the damn tohit cap

[Moonlighter]

On 11/18/2020 at 6:05 PM, Greycat said:

Honestly, the only one here who looks to be all that frustrated about it is you. Everyone else just presses another button and gets on with life.

 

Yes, it sucks to miss sometimes. Especially if you're running Kin or Dark and that miss means a heal doesn't go off. But it happens.

 

Also, nothing about missing is "unfair." You're basically saying every dice roll in Monopoly should get you to a property you want or own, you should always get two doubles in a row (but not three, because that puts you in jail, and that's frustrating,) and if the house rules put money in free parking, you should always get that. After all, it's a game, too, right? (And hey, just like COH, it has dice rolls and rules about them. One of which is basically "You roll a 1 on that D20, you miss.")

There are tons of people frustrated by it.

 

If you play characters who are highly dependent on opening strikes or attacks that are needed for chains, having a 5% arbitrary miss chance is maddening. Let high accuracy or to hit drop the percent down but never let it hit zero. At 5%, with the amount we attack, having an entire chain messed up 30 or 40 times a night is just annoying.

 

If people don't play characters where this is a thing, or just group a lot where in the chaos of the moment they just don't notice, then yeah they won't get why this is an issue.

 

[Moonlighter]

2 hours ago, LQT said:

 

Just a bit.

 

I've started saving really bad rolls for this reason, and had this very discussion in game recently.

 

Here are some of the save rolls.

 

So 2 misses and 2 streakbreakers.

 

I have the full combat log for the second set of numbers if someone really wants as I've cut out things as pasting that into game needed some editing to fit.

 

It's not fun when half your attacks miss and the other half only hit because the game takes pity on you. You may as well just be flipping a coin/d2 on whether you land an attack rather than the d20 system the game uses as it can disregard any and all slotting you do with rolls going that way.
 

Assassin strike openers. Sure you don't lose hide and can wait for BU to refresh but good luck pulling that off in team play. You won't get the rest of the team to wait

 

Alternatively, Sniper Shot alpha strikes. Especially for those where other alpha strike mechanics exist like /devices Targetting drone.

 

Admittedly these are also apparently separately bugged issues that I've posted about previously. Whether those matters remain fixed or not depends how much I play ATs that can encounter them as I've never been able to reliably replicate the conditions despite then later encountering the problems again down the line.

 

Combo chains, and sets where your build up is replaced by a power that cycles a damage buff. Missing a Follow Up is a 30% lost damage buff for an entire chain of attacks. Missing any attack in the entire Attack Vitals combo denies you significant damage at the end of the chain.

 

 

[Moonlighter]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:10 AM, Greycat said:

Looks like we're just flat out not going to agree on this being unfair or a burden that needs fixing, Vanden. If it were higher (lower?) at even con - say, 10-15%, it'd definitely need looking at. If it did something like the potential "critical miss," or had a chance to be one, sort of like I described earlier (you try, say, a footstomp, it misses and you fall over, or you can't use anything for several seconds,) it'd be - ok, potentially funny, but yeah, it'd need changing.

 

Even with using your definition of what makes this unfair, I just am not sold on it being big enough, frequent enough or having enough of a detrimental effect on the player to warrant changing or removal.

 

Peace.

 

Make Follow Up still pop its damage on a miss, have Attack Vitals generate combo credit on a miss, and just change it for #$*@ Assassin Strike; like an ATO that makes that strike have a 98% to hit chance.

[Moonlighter]

Don't even get me started on Kinetics when you lose party members because your heal missed three times in a row.

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Well that's not really the same thing as removing the cap, is it? Suppose you roll a 98, but your final chance to hit outside the cap would've been 96.5%. That should still miss, but if the code is to just force a hit in a certain situation, it would be giving you a hit you didn't need.

 

Presumably you would write the formula correctly.

[Jacke]

On my Kinetics toon, I always take Speed Boost, because it delivers the buffs to my teammates 100% of the time.  I never take Siphon Speed, but instead slot Sprint etc to get the running speed up.  Because to have that Siphon Speed fail 5% of the time means that I don't get a chance to try again for 30s or whatever the 60s Recharge is enhanced to.  And that means I now go a lot slower and need to change how I play a very dynamic toon.  (There's a reason the Repeat Offenders Kinetics Super Group is called Pinball Wizards.)

 

If I miss an attack, I've usually got another attack to follow up right away.  On a toon that uses soft control from Knockback/Knockdown, like my AR/Dev Blaster, I've got 3 powers that do KB/KD.

 

But for buffs, debuffs, mezzes, cage powers, etc., that have long recharge and few if no alternate powers to back them up, that 5% miss now means tactics have to be radically different when that 5% chance to miss, to fail, hits.

 

5% chance to miss, chance to fail, on powers that are going off all the time, means that almost certainly in every battle, I will have to deal with that 5% chance of failure.  If there's a similar power ready to go, dealing is trivial.  If there's no backup, it's serious.

 

And a 5% minimum-chance-to-fail is not realistic.  How many times swinging a sword or other weapons have I missed the pell?  How many times have I not struck a blow with close to full force?  Even against a person, when skill and other factors push advantage to the limit, there is no way there's a 5% chance to fail.

 

There's a reason that there's now special handling for powerset resources like Titan Weapon's Momentum, Energy Melee's Focus, and other things that are parts of attacks.  All of them used to depend on hitting the target.  And having that 5% chance-to-fail for them had greater consequences well beyond that single miss.  Now many of them are separate from the chance-to-hit to damage and if the power is used, the special effect like granting the resource is now 100% automatic.

 

On 11/17/2020 at 8:32 PM, Number Six said:

This is something I've kicked around a bit internally, but with a twist. The idea is to make to-hit chances above 95% possible, but not easy. It wouldn't simply be a matter of just getting 5% more tohit, but applying some sort of severe diminishing returns curve for every point past 95% you push it.

 

Ideally it would be tuned so that if you're a level 50 in Atlas smacking hellions around, you get either 100% tohit or close to it. But if you're fighting a +4 AV, it would be nearly impossible to get close to 100 unless you have massive buffs. In between, could be something you could choose to build for -- maybe put all of those purple +Acc bonuses to use somehow.

 

It's not a very well fleshed out idea at this point, just something that I threw out there and got some commentary on.

 

@Number Six, it's kind of like taking off the 95% ToHit cap and adding in a system similar to Enhancement Diversification.  It makes those last few percent on the way to 100% non-linear.

 

Of course, put in a system that makes it possible to push ToHit over 95% and approach 100% will require some other adjustments to things that are the way they are due to having the current 95% ToHit cap.

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Jacke

[ninja surprise]

On 11/17/2020 at 6:27 PM, Vanden said:

But you know what? Plenty of conveniences in this game make "zero sense." 

 

It also makes zero sense to be a hero literally surrounded by badguys, swinging an axe, and hit nothing. Titan Weapons should almost NOT be able to miss, unless the mobs are jumping over or ducking underneath the attack somehow.

Or to shoot laser beams from your eyeballs at something you're literally staring at and miss. Unless you got hit or sneezed right when blasting, that would cause a miss.

 

I can think of some tough-to-implement game mechanics that would support or prevent auto-hit:

AoE attacks should have bonus to-hit; eyebeams should definitely have a massive bonus to hit because you're looking right at the target.

Mob density should give a bonus to-hit, with auto-hits when your area of attack is saturated.

Range and movement should affect to-hit.

 

But then the hit would be modified by the target's defense or resistance.

Like, you hit but then there's a chance it's deflected by defensive armor, if the critter has it. But the attacking hero still gets the benefit of landing the strike/combo/build-up, etc.

[Razor Cure]

58 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

It also makes zero sense to be a hero literally surrounded by badguys, swinging an axe, and hit nothing. Titan Weapons should almost NOT be able to miss, unless the mobs are jumping over or ducking underneath the attack somehow.

Yeah, cause TW needs MORE help, right? It was already one of teh best (the best on scrappers when tricked out) melee sets in game.

This is a super hero game..logic and physics do not (and should not) apply realistically to every single power or mechanic in the game. Or would things like the following happen:

Flying makes your costume burn up due to friction, same with SUper Speed

Using SUper Strength and foot stomp damages you, unless you are Invul

Fire aoes burn team mates

Hell, EVERY aoe hurts team mates (cause HOW are team mates ducking that swinging titan weapon?)

Aoe Debuffs now hit everyone too

The list goes on.

 

All mechanics like that would make the game way more realistic and logical..and always make it utterly shite. For example..

 

1 hour ago, ninja surprise said:

AoE attacks should have bonus to-hit; eyebeams should definitely have a massive bonus to hit because you're looking right at the target.

Mob density should give a bonus to-hit, with auto-hits when your area of attack is saturated.

Range and movement should affect to-hit.

AoE atatcks having a bonus sorta makes sense..until you consider they are often less accurate, to counter balance the ability to hit way more targets (can you imagine SPines with +acc, and ALL those aoes?).

 

How do you know you are looking right at the target? Unless you are playing in FPS mode. Even then, you may as well say that since LBE cant miss, why should any other attack, since we are looking at the target? A miss could also represent the chance of a baddie ducking, moving, wind, a team mate blocking your view.

 

Mob Density...yeah, cause encouraging herding should totally help teams..since ever team should p[lay the same way. Right? (especially since the main winners from this would be AE farmers, with massive mobs around).

 

Range and Movement affecting to hit?

LOL.

That would make PvP utterly worthless. And in PvE, range (and to a lesser extent) moving is the main tactic/mitigation of half the ATs in the game. And you want to remove that? Does that mean every range blaster gets an acc penalty? What about SNipes. Huge range..huge penalty, right?? And you can only fire them when not moving? Awesome idea! Apart from..you know, the devs making Fast Snipes a thing (a good thing).

Which plays into your logic about Laser Eyes..since the ONLY snipes that should get an acc bonus, ever, are Assault Rifle (scopes) and Archery (scopes, kinda)...every other snipes is magically fired from teh hand..how are those people seeing the guy downrange? hence, huge acc penalty! What fun for those players.

 

 

 

[Rejolt]

Ok I gotta say this to the Siphon Speed comment above:

 

1. Siphon Speed is unresisted for part of it's -movement speed. I've slowed the LTs in BAF trials to a crawl and they're supposed to be immune.

2. It gives +recharge to you (and stacks).

3. It makes Hover amazing.

 

I understand hating the misses though. It's a big a let down as missing with K O blow or Assassin Strike.

 

As for 5 percent happening so often - how difficult would be it be to try changing the chance to miss from 95.00 to 96.00 for a beta test? I don't code so I'm clueless to the depths of issues it could cause across all rolls the game makes. I'm wondering if a 4 percent chance to miss using the RNG ends up being an actual 5 percent-ish over time.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Rejolt

[Pzn]

If it ain't broke don't fix it.  There's no need to radically overhaul basic mechanics.

 

[GM Tock]

Removed some posts.  Please be civil when responding.  If others aren't, report post and ignore them when replying.

[Black Zot]

14 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Yeah, cause TW needs MORE help, right? It was already one of teh best (the best on scrappers when tricked out) melee sets in game.

 

 

Until i27 nerfs it to the ground, anyway.

[Moka]

Is it true you're designed to miss every six attacks or so? It makes the 'Combo' sets like STJ/DB/Staff/TW extremely annoying, sometimes.

[Vanden]

14 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

This is a super hero game..logic and physics do not (and should not) apply realistically to every single power or mechanic in the game.

Well now, hold on. You were the one who first said it would make zero sense for attacks to be able to become auto-hit. But now you say that it's fine for the game to be unlike reality in certain aspects. Which is it? Should the game only do what makes "sense," or be willing to disregard that for the sake of fun?

[Moka]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

 Should the game only do what makes "sense," or be willing to disregard that for the sake of fun?

It's surprising how many people don't want to play powerful characters in a power fantasy game, isn't it?

[Razor Cure]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

Well now, hold on. You were the one who first said it would make zero sense for attacks to be able to become auto-hit. But now you say that it's fine for the game to be unlike reality in certain aspects. Which is it? Should the game only do what makes "sense," or be willing to disregard that for the sake of fun?

Way to pull your own meaning from what I said. Especially since your first post was basically "I cant handle missing, FIX it now, wah.'

Key word Sir 'certain aspects'..you know, the difference between auto hitting everything and team mates hitting you with their own (auto hit) aoes.

3 minutes ago, Moka said:

It's surprising how many people don't want to play powerful characters in a power fantasy game, isn't it?

Yeah, right. A;most like people have different ideas about what is fun. I mean, Vanden never wants to miss, cause that is 'fun.'

How about we just hand out Incarnates at level 1? That way we can always be super powerful!

 

[Solarverse]

3 minutes ago, Moka said:

It's surprising how many people don't want to play powerful characters in a power fantasy game, isn't it?

For some people such as myself, we get more enjoyment from a game when we feel challenged. We don't want it to be near impossible, but a challenge is nice.

[Moka]

6 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

For some people such as myself, we get more enjoyment from a game when we feel challenged. We don't want it to be near impossible, but a challenge is nice.

I'm someone who generally plays games on the hardest difficulty and am one of those sweaty 'day 1' raiders in FF14. I never said I don't like a challenge. In fact, I'm a firm believer there should be a harder difficulty in CoX than +4 or a way to disable Incarnates for your team. +4 Radio teams just aren't fun when you have 8 judgements popping off and deleting the room with no effort. Yawn. But the 'power fantasy' for me is me being cocky and enjoying building my characters to extremes. I like to shine in a team.

On topic, though, I don't think you should really miss a minion enemy after popping build up. A boss? Sure. But I feel like the game has a certain inconsistency with the way it registers what hits or misses, sometimes. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Moka

[Vanden]

7 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Way to pull your own meaning from what I said. Especially since your first post was basically "I cant handle missing, FIX it now, wah.'

Key word Sir 'certain aspects'..you know, the difference between auto hitting everything and team mates hitting you with their own (auto hit) aoes.

By all means, elaborate on what you said. If, when you said it would make "zero sense" for attacks to reach 100% chance to hit, you weren't basing it on logic or physics, in what way does it make "zero sense?"

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

For some people such as myself, we get more enjoyment from a game when we feel challenged. We don't want it to be near impossible, but a challenge is nice.

I like a good challenge myself, and I'm always the guy saying the team should up its difficulty if we're just steamrolling enemies with no trouble. But missing despite being at the hit cap isn't a fair challenge, it's just my attacks failing through no fault of my own.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Moka said:

I'm someone who generally plays games on the hardest difficulty and am one of those sweaty 'day 1' raiders in FF14. I never said I don't like a challenge. In fact, I'm a firm believer there should be a harder difficulty in CoX than +4 or a way to disable Incarnates for your team. +4 Radio teams just aren't fun when you have 8 judgements popping off and deleting the room with no effort. Yawn. But the 'power fantasy' for me is me being cocky and enjoying building my characters to extremes. I like to shine in a team.

On topic, though, I don't think you should really miss a minion enemy after popping build up. A boss? Sure. But I feel like the game has a certain inconsistency with the way it registers what hits or misses, sometimes. 

There are certain powers or sets I believe should never miss but only because it makes zero sense to miss with them. Laser Beam Eyes or any power that shoots from the eyes would be one of them. It's like, wait...is my character cross eyed? How did I miss a target that hits whatever I am looking at? Or Psi abilities that fire from thought. That never made sense to me how that could miss either. If anything at all in game gets a 100% chance to hit (unless your character is debuffed) it should only be powers that make sense to have a 100% chance to hit. But giving all powers across the board a 100% chance to hit is a big no otherwise.

[Moka]

On 11/17/2020 at 6:55 PM, Blackfeather said:

I'll do you one better: make all attacks, whether from enemies or from players automatically hit.

 

I'll let the implications of that, and the potential changes the game would have to make as a whole as a result settle in. 😈

Ahhh! 😧 The PVPer in me hates this! (Yes, PVPers do still exist!)

 

  

Just now, Solarverse said:

There are certain powers or sets I believe should never miss but only because it makes zero sense to miss with them. Laser Beam Eyes or any power that shoots from the eyes would be one of them. It's like, wait...is my character cross eyed? How did I miss a target that hits whatever I am looking at? Or Psi abilities that fire from thought. That never made sense to me how that could miss either. If anything at all in game gets a 100% chance to hit (unless your character is debuffed) it should only be powers that make sense to have a 100% chance to hit. But giving all powers across the board a 100% chance to hit is a big no otherwise.

My personal favorite is missing executioner's shot where your character just shoots the ceiling/sky instead. "Sec, gotta shoot this mosquito with my revolver. Damned thing."

Edited November 23, 2020 by Moka

[Solarverse]

Just now, Vanden said:

I like a good challenge myself, and I'm always the guy saying the team should up its difficulty if we're just steamrolling enemies with no trouble. But missing despite being at the hit cap isn't a fair challenge, it's just my attacks failing through no fault of my own.

Check my last post, I think that could be a good compromise.

[Razor Cure]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

If, when you said it would make "zero sense" for attacks to reach 100% chance to hit, you weren't basing it on logic or physics, in what way does it make "zero sense?"

Because super heroes miss. Duh. Hard concept.

 

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

it's just my attacks failing through no fault of my own.

Or maybe it is missing due to 'extra' factors. Obviously these are unseen, but HOW hard is it to think of a miss as the bad guy dodging, your hand slipping, a gust of wind, a team mate blocking line of sight?

Missing at the to hit cap just means..it is a miss. Which CAN happen due to the cap being 95%. Since auto hitting, again, is a really silly idea.

[GM Tempest]

I'm going to start stealing sweetrolls if people don't behave.

 

Please be civil.