Weekly Discussion 78: Incarnate Powers - a review of ultimate power!

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

End goal is to roll back one more bit of power creep. As it stands, with a lvl shift and eating ultimate insps, regular content at +4 becomes even more of a joke. Almost as much as running DA at +4 while fighting +1s or even +0s if using ultimate insps there as well. And since we can't use threads for anything but buying insps from the fairy lass, it's easy to get stocked up on ultimates as well. It wouldn't break my heart to see those yanked from the game either.

 

Well I wouldn't be opposed to it, and it'd just have people doing +3 instead of +4 if they wanted the same diff.

 

[Spaghetti Betty]

Ok well I guess I'll throw an opinion this way

 

What you like

    I think my answer to this is honestly the grind and the payoff. Then again, I distinctly remember the grind for the powers being way more arduous pre-shutdown. It made the strength you gain in return more valuable. Now I jumped ship right before i25 hit the live servers, so I don't know if the process was gradually more sped up or if that became the case during the lifetime of this server. I like that the Incarnate stuff makes you feel like a god. That's kind of the point. It's everywhere in the lore. Statesman was virtually unkillable (until some skinny dweeb got a new toy and plot'd him to death). It led to a lot of tension in the Freedom Phalanx as him potentially having a god complex was brought up many times. It's forgotten about nowadays, but doing the arc to unlock the Alpha made you feel like your decision to become an Incarnate was very heavy in the lore.

 

What you don't like

   Nowadays, I think what I don't like is that the system was unfortunately unfinished. We got all of the strength but none of the content. The Incarnate stuff was never ever meant to be balanced for existing content. It was meant to be balanced for incoming content that never got made. Now, we're just all left as gods with nothing to conquer. I don't think making the grind easier was the answer to keeping the existing content engaging either. If anything, making the god stuff more achievable just made the levelling process feel more bottlenecked, even if it's not intentionally done. You can see this in new players coming into the game. They see all these crazy strong powers going off all at once in this PI radio team they joined because that's what they were told to do by others, and then they're convinced that is the true end goal, unknowing that those powers were designed for something that doesn't exist. I guess the point I'm trying to make is in our current version of the game, Incarnate powers have no place, but are so easily accessible that they became baked into core gameplay anyway. I would say this is the same case with IOs, but IOs do have a place and are strong in a different way.

 

Balance of the sets

   I honestly feel like each type of Incarnate power does a great job in serving their respective purpose, and aside from some really stinky examples (BP Ravager, Barrier, Ion), are pretty much in line with what we were told to expect. I think it goes back to the payoff argument. How do you nerf Incarnate powers without making everyone frustrated? I'm gonna double down on making them harder to get. Just make it take little longer. Go back to only being able to get threads while doing Incarnate content. Sure, some people are going to experiment and try multiple T1's at once and it may make them take longer to fully T4 out, but I think that comes with making the decision to experiment in the first place. Vet levels giving crazy good incarnate rewards makes it go really fast as well. Personally, I can make an educated guess on what would fit my toon (either numerically or thematically) and spend one day doing steamroll ITFs and another day doing iTrials and be good to go.

 

The crafting system

   I think it's fine. Sure, the UI is a little wonky, but you're not always looking at it. If any adjustments were to be made, I'd say let us convert shards into threads, and get rid of the cost for sidegrading components. Converting threads into merits is a pretty good idea, too.

 

Where you'd like to see them go

   I think the biggest noise I'm gonna make about the future is please do not directly nerf the strength of the Incarnate powers. Don't add any new ones either (unless it's new Lore pets. I'm about that). I think the easiest way to make everyone happy is to make the bubble smaller. Being able to use Incarnate stuff at 45 is too good. It's crazy how much Shadow Shard TFs are trivialized by them. But in the same vein, that's not really the fault of the Shadow Shard TFs or the Incarnate powers. Also, being able to grind for Incarnate materials by doing Shadow Shard TFs is a hilarious thought. However, restricting Incarnate powers to only Incarnate content feels too heavy handed when there's barely any Incarnate content to begin with. Wouldn't restricting it to just 50 be a good middle ground? And then maybe down the line when the team feels confident enough, they can make more Incarnate content for Incarnates to do.

[Kazuuk]

1 hour ago, Leetdeth said:

Ok well I guess I'll throw an opinion this way

 

What you like

    I think my answer to this is honestly the grind and the payoff. Then again, I distinctly remember the grind for the powers being way more arduous pre-shutdown. It made the strength you gain in return more valuable. Now I jumped ship right before i25 hit the live servers, so I don't know if the process was gradually more sped up or if that became the case during the lifetime of this server. I like that the Incarnate stuff makes you feel like a god. That's kind of the point. It's everywhere in the lore. Statesman was virtually unkillable (until some skinny dweeb got a new toy and plot'd him to death). It led to a lot of tension in the Freedom Phalanx as him potentially having a god complex was brought up many times. It's forgotten about nowadays, but doing the arc to unlock the Alpha made you feel like your decision to become an Incarnate was very heavy in the lore.

 

What you don't like

   Nowadays, I think what I don't like is that the system was unfortunately unfinished. We got all of the strength but none of the content. The Incarnate stuff was never ever meant to be balanced for existing content. It was meant to be balanced for incoming content that never got made. Now, we're just all left as gods with nothing to conquer. I don't think making the grind easier was the answer to keeping the existing content engaging either. If anything, making the god stuff more achievable just made the levelling process feel more bottlenecked, even if it's not intentionally done. You can see this in new players coming into the game. They see all these crazy strong powers going off all at once in this PI radio team they joined because that's what they were told to do by others, and then they're convinced that is the true end goal, unknowing that those powers were designed for something that doesn't exist. I guess the point I'm trying to make is in our current version of the game, Incarnate powers have no place, but are so easily accessible that they became baked into core gameplay anyway. I would say this is the same case with IOs, but IOs do have a place and are strong in a different way.

 

Balance of the sets

   I honestly feel like each type of Incarnate power does a great job in serving their respective purpose, and aside from some really stinky examples (BP Ravager, Barrier, Ion), are pretty much in line with what we were told to expect. I think it goes back to the payoff argument. How do you nerf Incarnate powers without making everyone frustrated? I'm gonna double down on making them harder to get. Just make it take little longer. Go back to only being able to get threads while doing Incarnate content. Sure, some people are going to experiment and try multiple T1's at once and it may make them take longer to fully T4 out, but I think that comes with making the decision to experiment in the first place. Vet levels giving crazy good incarnate rewards makes it go really fast as well. Personally, I can make an educated guess on what would fit my toon (either numerically or thematically) and spend one day doing steamroll ITFs and another day doing iTrials and be good to go.

 

The crafting system

   I think it's fine. Sure, the UI is a little wonky, but you're not always looking at it. If any adjustments were to be made, I'd say let us convert shards into threads, and get rid of the cost for sidegrading components. Converting threads into merits is a pretty good idea, too.

 

Where you'd like to see them go

   I think the biggest noise I'm gonna make about the future is please do not directly nerf the strength of the Incarnate powers. Don't add any new ones either (unless it's new Lore pets. I'm about that). I think the easiest way to make everyone happy is to make the bubble smaller. Being able to use Incarnate stuff at 45 is too good. It's crazy how much Shadow Shard TFs are trivialized by them. But in the same vein, that's not really the fault of the Shadow Shard TFs or the Incarnate powers. Also, being able to grind for Incarnate materials by doing Shadow Shard TFs is a hilarious thought. However, restricting Incarnate powers to only Incarnate content feels too heavy handed when there's barely any Incarnate content to begin with. Wouldn't restricting it to just 50 be a good middle ground? And then maybe down the line when the team feels confident enough, they can make more Incarnate content for Incarnates to do.

Yup, great post.

[Darmian]

Might get flamed on this one!  If Incarnates could only be used in level 50 content then lock things like the ITF to a 49 cap. Seriously, a kitted out 49 is damn tough.

[Troo]

6 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Might get flamed on this one!  If Incarnates could only be used in level 50 content then lock things like the ITF to a 49 cap. Seriously, a kitted out 49 is damn tough.

No flames, similar ideas have been bounced around.

• Alpha working similar to Purple sets when exemplared.
• No other Incarnates below level 50 in general non incarnate content.
• New Incarnate content.

 

This or something similar would be my preference.

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Troo

[Kazuuk]

47 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Might get flamed on this one!  If Incarnates could only be used in level 50 content then lock things like the ITF to a 49 cap. Seriously, a kitted out 49 is damn tough.

You can do that now.  Start a group with that intent.  The problem has always been a tiny very vocal minority who have ALWAYS hated the power creep of incarnates and have wanted to force the majority of the players to adhere to there narrow vision.  You have the choice to play as you wish now.  Find like minded players.

[Darmian]

I already do this and am happy to exemp down below 45 to play, as are plenty of others. 

I haven't ever experienced your stated tiny vocal minority personally. I see far more complaints, and they are valid, that there isn't enough content of the right nature for incarnates. That's no fault of anyone here right now.

There are plenty of suggestions above that could paper over this while we wait for some new content of the right scope and range.

[Parabola]

I've been a bit reluctant to post because I feel like I've gone on about my opinions around incarnates and game balance way too much. But then again if I didn't repeat myself here I'm sure I'd feel I'd missed out on the ideal forum for it so...

 

What I like:

Alpha and hybrid slots. They predominantly work to enhance the theme of your AT and powersets and feel an integrated part of the whole character.

 

What I'm on the fence about:

Interface slot. I don't see this as a problem design wise but it needs some serious balancing. As it stands there are a couple of obviously good options and a load of 'only for flavour'. Customisation of the fx would be lovely too.

 

What I don't like:

All the others. Don't get me wrong, I use them and the ridiculous things they allow me to solo do raise a smile, but from a design and mmo game balance point of view I think they are horrible. Nukes, pets and massively op group buffs available regardless of AT just homogenizes characters and throws balance out the window.

 

What I would do differently:

At the very least I would look at seriously limiting incarnate abilities in non-incarnate content. If the alpha slot is to remain active in non-incarnate content I would remove the level shift. If given completely free reign I'd redesign judgement, lore and destiny from the ground up. Haven't a clue what I'd actually do with them but I'd start from the concept that all incarnates should fit with the AT roles not bulldoze across them.

 

It would be nice to add more incarnate content simply to give more breathing space for reducing incarnate availability in regular content. Level 45+ is currently an entirely different teaming experience from the rest of the game and in a deeply unsatisfying way in my opinion. I end up soloing because there doesn't seem much point in continuing to team, +4×8 simply can't cope. I enjoy soloing but the game I really love is the pre-incarnate teaming and it's a shame that ends at lv45.

[Myrmidon]

On 11/22/2020 at 1:19 PM, Heraclea said:

My suggestions would be to:

 

 - Get rid of the Shards path entirely.  The shards are currently only used for Alpha components, all of which can be crafted by the Threads path at well.  Offering the incarnate rewards for TF completion could also be gotten rid of; those things are treacherous, traps for the new 50, who may not be aware of how limited their usefulness is.  If something like that is still offered, I'd just offer a reward of empyrean merits instead, with an empyrean bonus reward for the weekly strike force target.

 

 - Make the tokens more transferrable by allowing threads to be converted to empyrean merits at the established rate of 20:1, similar to the convertability of astral merits.  This preserves the motivation to play characters with full t4 incarnates.  The threads and other geemies that they drop can be converted into merits that can be passed to other characters.  Right now the chief use of threads to them is to buy inspirations in Ouro.

I would like to add that we could use much more Incarnate content than just trials. I know that it would be a lot of work (especially for a volunteer team), however, the ability to just continue to play as Incarnates through story arc-based play instead of just grinding trials would be a huge upgrade.

 

Add these three ideas (or variant thereof) and the system would be perfect.

[Chris24601]

9 hours ago, Darmian said:

Might get flamed on this one!  If Incarnates could only be used in level 50 content then lock things like the ITF to a 49 cap. Seriously, a kitted out 49 is damn tough.

Instead of locking Incarnates to level 50 content, I’d suggest it instead be limited to level 51 content (i.e. content run at level 50 with the difficulty turned to at least +1 for level 51-52 enemies). Maybe it even needs to be higher than that, but the idea is that doing so provides a simple and deliberate toggle to allow or disallow incarnate abilities by the mission leader just setting the difficulty at a certain level.

 

And again, the two things I keep coming back to are;

 

A) You could already build Superman or Thor (selected because they’re basically the strongest of the mainline heroes in their respective universes) before there was ever an Incarnate system.

 

B) The Incarnate system wasn’t added to improve the health of the game... it was added to obviate the 1-50 game with unbalancing abilities in order to promote a monetizeable endgame grind to appease NCSoft.

 

It doesn’t matter how much you might like the Incarnate system; I loved my 80’ electronet arrows and they were nowhere near as disruptive as incarnate powers yet still got nerfed for what the devs believe is the good of the game.

 

For the health of the overall game Incarnate powers really need to be reigned in.

 

One obvious and simple fix would be that the Alpha Slot level shift should be made into an Incarnate Shift (i.e. only functions in incarnate content like the other two).

 

As a fix that still offers something to those who like the Incarnate powers, add a difficulty option to the game for turning on/off Incarnate powers. Turning it on not only allows incarnate powers and level shifts to be used, but adds level shifts to all opponents (I’d base it on difficulty... +1 level shift per +1 difficulty... so at +4 the opponents would also have +4 level shifts applied) and drops special “aspect” opponents into the missions (like quantums, but for Incarnates).

 

In trade... allow incarnate powers to function all the way down to level 1 even when exemplared as long as the difficulty option for incarnates is toggled on. This then opens up ALL the old content for Incarnate Oroboros teams to challenge themselves against.

[xl8]

20 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

On live, threads dropped only in Incarnate content, and shards dropped in non-incarnate content.  On HC, threads drop in all content once a character hits 50, so shards have become, basically, a redundant system that contributes very little except unnecessary complexity.  Getting rid of them would actually make it (marginally) harder to progress as an incarnate.

I still enjoy the diversity. Choices, a keen eye on what you have gathered, the need to convert and upgrade--all these additional facets add to the experience. A forgemaster/potion maker if you will. Simply collecting, buying, and equipping is far less interesting for me personally.
I'm very much against genericization and the more different and unique each power, archetype, process, enhancement... is, the better.
This may not be the case for new players, but this is end game we are talking about and discovery is its own reward.

[chi1701]

I dont see some incarnates as power creep but ability for some builds to become more viable at end game, low damage archytypes can finally dish out some damage with judgements or heavy endurance builds can be alleviated with specific alphas and or destinies etc. If incarnates should be limited to 50+ content, then powers and builds should be adjusted to ensure every archytype and power sets are as viable as any other.

 

Incarnates should boost your character, not fix them.

Edited November 27, 2020 by chi1701

[Lockpick]

On 11/26/2020 at 1:12 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

End goal is to roll back one more bit of power creep. As it stands, with a lvl shift and eating ultimate insps, regular content at +4 becomes even more of a joke. Almost as much as running DA at +4 while fighting +1s or even +0s if using ultimate insps there as well. And since we can't use threads for anything but buying insps from the fairy lass, it's easy to get stocked up on ultimates as well. It wouldn't break my heart to see those yanked from the game either.

Whose end goal?  My end goal would be for the Devs to provide more ability for the players to create hard mode content, so that the incarnate powers would be useful in newly added content.  I certainly wouldn't want to nerf the powers as many here are suggesting.  The HC team just did a bunch of power adjustments that made some people happy and others unhappy.  New content makes everyone happy.  Nerfing powers make some people unhappy.  Let's go for making everyone happy...

[Darmian]

21 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

Whose end goal?  My end goal would be for the Devs to provide more ability for the players to create hard mode content, so that the incarnate powers would be useful in newly added content.  I certainly wouldn't want to nerf the powers as many here are suggesting.  The HC team just did a bunch of power adjustments that made some people happy and others unhappy.  New content makes everyone happy.  Nerfing powers make some people unhappy.  Let's go for making everyone happy...

A bunch of new incarnate content a la the material we just got is doable but such a lot of work for a tiny team.  So  way to toggle Incarnate versions of existing material? As mentioned before, a team of Incarnates doing LRSF gets Incarnate FP to face off against, and vice versa in the MLTF?

[Lockpick]

30 minutes ago, Darmian said:

A bunch of new incarnate content a la the material we just got is doable but such a lot of work for a tiny team.  So  way to toggle Incarnate versions of existing material? As mentioned before, a team of Incarnates doing LRSF gets Incarnate FP to face off against, and vice versa in the MLTF?

 

That is why my suggestions are more around the HC team adjusting various settings (Notoriety, Challenge, etc.) and expanding and refreshing AE as well as focusing on the AE community.  The only way to get hard mode / incarnate content out regularly is to have the players get involved and create it.  The stories that have come out from the HC team are excellent, but to get content out faster it needs to come from the community.

[Darmian]

3 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

 

That is why my suggestions are more around the HC team adjusting various settings (Notoriety, Challenge, etc.) and expanding and refreshing AE as well as focusing on the AE community.  The only way to get hard mode / incarnate content out regularly is to have the players get involved and create it.  The stories that have come out from the HC team are excellent, but to get content out faster it needs to come from the community.

AE!  Yes.  Love it.  And I'd love to have access to incarnate opponents for players.  I wrote a long arc for AE and apart from one or two missions I capped most material at 44 so that Incarnates wouldn't just steamroller it.  But I'd PREFER if they had the option to play to their full capacity.  I didn't do it to nerf them but to preserve the story.

[Lusiphur Malache]

I don't like the UI, you don't like the UI, nobody likes the UI, it is what we got until something better comes along.

 

Shards are a waste, everything should be thread based.  I think Omega should be added and take shards also.

 

Alpha could stay the same for the most part and usable on content 40+.  Move the level shift to T4

 

Balance Lore pets, change pets a couple or 3 times a year.

 

Balance Judgement powers, maybe add a few more.

 

With the addition of Omega only allow Alpha and 2 other powers from Judgement, Interface, Lore, Destiny, and Hybrid.

 

Take out level shifts, except for a +1 in either Alpha or Omega, but not both.

 

Add a +5/+10 for those people who like to tug on Superman's or Dr. Doom's cape.

 

Without a majority of level shifts the current level of content should be enough until new stuff comes.

 

I invite others who know more than me to come up with their own ideas.  You aren't going to please everyone, but if you can piss off everybody you might have something.

[khy]

14 hours ago, Darmian said:

A bunch of new incarnate content a la the material we just got is doable but such a lot of work for a tiny team.  So  way to toggle Incarnate versions of existing material? As mentioned before, a team of Incarnates doing LRSF gets Incarnate FP to face off against, and vice versa in the MLTF?

S'why I kept my suggestion to new pets. New pets is easy, you just pick a model, choose the powers, adjust the damage to be in line with other incarnates and you're done. It's as close to copy-paste as you're gonna get, but it's one that'll make the players happy (I absolutely guarantee Malta lore pets would be a hit).

[GM ColdSpark]

Thanks for the great discussion folks - write-up will be posted shortly here