Zone Travel Updates in Issue 27

[ZacKing]

10 minutes ago, macskull said:

Sure, there could have been a "take you anywhere" power with a 1-minute recharge but that sort of defeats the purpose. I think the intention here was to require some amount of investment if you really wanted to essentially bypass most travel.

People have been using Oro to bypass travel and that has no investment.  I understand the thinking behind the changes I just don't agree with it. 

[Flintlock Burnfur]

I'd dare say Ouro needed the investment of being at least level 14, which now you can get at level 1.

 

I'm all for encouraging exploration, which is what the LTR really does.  And packing all the teleport powers into one menu seems far more simple than having your Wentworth's transporter, base teleport power, Pocket D teleporter and Ouro portal all taking up slots on the power tray bar.  It's now in one location, which is far more simple than the clutter that it was.

[PtownRebel]

I appreciate when the devs give players new options like power sets and customizations, but I'm very disappointed by the loss of the enterbasefrompasscode command. I gave up on WoW because I hated having to walk all over the place to get or turn in a mission, and one of my favorite things about City of Heroes has been the easy transport. With the macro loss, it seems like, if I stick with CoH, I'll be back to a lot of walking, running or flying on every toon just to get exploration badges. Or if I go to the trouble of earning a day job on each of my alts, building up charges, etc., I still have to get to Pocket D and run to the base portal, with 10 minute cooldowns between uses to boot. How exactly does taking away the macro casual players use to increase our enjoyment make the game better? Was it not originally intended to be so helpful? Maybe, but so what -- it's been working for a long time now. Is it that some players don't like being able to transport at will? The macro wasn't mandatory; if a player didn't want to use it, they didn't have to.  Was there some kind of ultra-secret glitch a handful of people used to get around the rules of a free game? If there was, it certainly didn't bother the majority of gamers. Did an occasional player zone out to avoid a defeat? I haven't noticed chronic abuse of that in the 14 months I've been playing, but if it exists the easy fix is to not reinvite that person. Overall, taking away the base macro seems like a solution in search of a problem.

[TheIndigoFire]

9 minutes ago, PtownRebel said:

I appreciate when the devs give players new options like power sets and customizations, but I'm very disappointed by the loss of the enterbasefrompasscode command. I gave up on WoW because I hated having to walk all over the place to get or turn in a mission, and one of my favorite things about City of Heroes has been the easy transport. With the macro loss, it seems like, if I stick with CoH, I'll be back to a lot of walking, running or flying on every toon just to get exploration badges. Or if I go to the trouble of earning a day job on each of my alts, building up charges, etc., I still have to get to Pocket D and run to the base portal, with 10 minute cooldowns between uses to boot. How exactly does taking away the macro casual players use to increase our enjoyment make the game better? Was it not originally intended to be so helpful? Maybe, but so what -- it's been working for a long time now. Is it that some players don't like being able to transport at will? The macro wasn't mandatory; if a player didn't want to use it, they didn't have to.  Was there some kind of ultra-secret glitch a handful of people used to get around the rules of a free game? If there was, it certainly didn't bother the majority of gamers. Did an occasional player zone out to avoid a defeat? I haven't noticed chronic abuse of that in the 14 months I've been playing, but if it exists the easy fix is to not reinvite that person. Overall, taking away the base macro seems like a solution in search of a problem.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I played mainly for RP, content, and not PvP since I’m not a fan of the PvP system in this game. The macro was a godsend because it made solo playing and traveling between zones for TFs that much easier. The Homecoming team has added so many quality of life ideas to the game that I love. But, I feel that this is a step backwards. 

[macskull]

12 minutes ago, PtownRebel said:

I appreciate when the devs give players new options like power sets and customizations, but I'm very disappointed by the loss of the enterbasefrompasscode command. I gave up on WoW because I hated having to walk all over the place to get or turn in a mission, and one of my favorite things about City of Heroes has been the easy transport. With the macro loss, it seems like, if I stick with CoH, I'll be back to a lot of walking, running or flying on every toon just to get exploration badges. Or if I go to the trouble of earning a day job on each of my alts, building up charges, etc., I still have to get to Pocket D and run to the base portal, with 10 minute cooldowns between uses to boot. How exactly does taking away the macro casual players use to increase our enjoyment make the game better? Was it not originally intended to be so helpful? Maybe, but so what -- it's been working for a long time now. Is it that some players don't like being able to transport at will? The macro wasn't mandatory; if a player didn't want to use it, they didn't have to.  Was there some kind of ultra-secret glitch a handful of people used to get around the rules of a free game? If there was, it certainly didn't bother the majority of gamers. Did an occasional player zone out to avoid a defeat? I haven't noticed chronic abuse of that in the 14 months I've been playing, but if it exists the easy fix is to not reinvite that person. Overall, taking away the base macro seems like a solution in search of a problem.

The day job is 2-for-1 once you get the accolade since you get charges of both the TP power and portal power, and the P2W vendor sells infinite-charge versions of both these with a 10-minute cooldown. You can still move around just as quickly as you did before, it just requires some modicum of investment of either time or inf now. I've been playing around with it for a couple months and it's really not that bad.

[SuperBear]

Yes, I do appreciate the work that went into this... but... I am confused how having a Fast Travel menu with 9 travel options on it - use ONE - and then you are left with NO travel powers for 10 minutes ???

[Blackbird71]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Want to be super fast? Cool. There's a wide variety of powers available in P2W which are now all better than they were before i27. You'll actually be able to get around faster than you could before.

False.  You can get around faster than you could before when using these P2W powers.  You cannot get around faster than you could before unilaterally, as even with the improved cast times and cooldowns, these powers are still slower than the previously available options.

 

2 hours ago, macskull said:

Ironically, the fast travel menu was added as a way to address the "there are too many things now" feedback. Yet another example of feedback being listened to.

It's an example of feedback being listened to and completely misunderstood.  The feedback was "there are now too many powers to do the same thing, and it's a complicated mess; please consolidate some of these."  Instead, they kept all the powers (including new ones added or repurposes specifically in for this Page) and just lumped them into a menu.  It reduces the need for tray slots, but it does not reduce the mess that has been created.

 

Quote

The day job is 2-for-1 once you get the accolade since you get charges of both the TP power and portal power, and the P2W vendor sells infinite-charge versions of both these with a 10-minute cooldown. You can still move around just as quickly as you did before, it just requires some modicum of investment of either time or inf now. I've been playing around with it for a couple months and it's really not that bad.

The day job also requires the use of charges at a rate that, based on common use of these powers, will require characters to sacrifice progress on other day jobs just to keep these powers usable.  And the 10-minute cooldown on the "infinite charge" versions is far too long for several activities and common use situations.

 

 

 

[tmclarke]

"You should not be able to teleport to any base, instantly, with no cost, regardless of your character’s level or progress, by using a simple slash command."

 

Why? 

[Jimmy]

11 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

False.  You can get around faster than you could before when using these P2W powers.

Right. Did you read what you quoted? 🙂

11 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

You cannot get around faster than you could before unilaterally, as even with the improved cast times and cooldowns, these powers are still slower than the previously available options.

You're forgetting the most important part, which is the exit points in almost all zones being in more convenient locations, and a bunch of new portals / beacons being added.

12 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

The day job also requires the use of charges at a rate that, based on common use of these powers, will require characters to sacrifice progress on other day jobs just to keep these powers usable.  And the 10-minute cooldown on the "infinite charge" versions is far too long for several activities and common use situations.

Once again, you're presenting a flawed argument here. The Day Job powers are not the only option available, all of these options are intended for you to mix and match as you please, just like every other aspect of the game.

 

We listened to all the feedback intently, and the valid feedback was acted upon.

[Blackbird71]

18 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Right. Did you read what you quoted? 🙂

Yes I did.

 

18 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

You're forgetting the most important part, which is the exit points in almost all zones being in more convenient locations, and a bunch of new portals / beacons being added.

Which is still not faster than the previously available option.  Faster than other options, yes, but not faster than the fastest option we used to have.

 

19 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Once again, you're presenting a flawed argument here. The Day Job powers are not the only option available, all of these options are intended for you to mix and match as you please, just like every other aspect of the game.

Did you read what you quoted?  That statement was specifically in response to a comment about the Day Job powers, and I was pointing out the drawbacks to those powers specifically.  So far as "mixing and matching," the need to do so is what makes this such a complicated and unnecessary mess.  Plus, it seems to be contradictory to this:
 

Quote

You can use one, two, or more of these options, to get around the game easily, but you seriously do not need all of them. Pick the options that work best for you, and don't worry about the rest.

 

[TheSpiritFox]

Specific request for supergroup base portals. Add functionality to drop a supergroup portal with your base enabled as a menu option for other people. As in, if you drop the portal, the portal will enable them to enter your base to use teleporters and such without them having to know the code or enter the code into a macro or save a code somewhere. 

[Ironblade]

4 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 maybe next time they'll engage the players in the design process first.

Engaging the players is not the same as letting the players direct the process.

They did the first, but you seem to want the second.

But, like you said, we'll just have to disagree on this.

[Goldierays]

Is there an issue with characters who had the Monitor Duty/Rapid Response badges before the update not getting the teleporter powers associated with them?

 

I've checked a couple characters that had the Monitor Duty badge already and they have no Monitor Duty teleporter even after some post-update hours logged by a base portal.

 

Whereas a newer character that just got the badge today, post-update, did get the Monitor Duty teleporter power with it right away.

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Goldieray

[Grimz]

10 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

Yes I did.

 

Which is still not faster than the previously available option.  Faster than other options, yes, but not faster than the fastest option we used to have.

 

Did you read what you quoted?  That statement was specifically in response to a comment about the Day Job powers, and I was pointing out the drawbacks to those powers specifically.  So far as "mixing and matching," the need to do so is what makes this such a complicated and unnecessary mess.  Plus, it seems to be contradictory to this:
 

 

At no point have I ever felt the need to get day jobs and have only ever used the base teleporter for Task Forces... I have no idea where to perception of forced need is coming from. Additionally, who cares about being "the fastest option?" Just have fun and stop harassing our devs over a change you don't agree with.

[Ruin Mage]

" maybe next time they'll engage the players in the design process first."

Bad. No. This is a one way ticket to completely screwing the pooch on development and design.

On topic - Sad about the command, but we were told for months and months that this was going to occur.

[Dreamboat]

Harassing! Dear Christ. Delete these forums.

[Widower]

8 minutes ago, Dreamboat said:

Harassing! Dear Christ. Delete these forums.

But then how else would the playerbase communicate their anger to us? Carrier pigeon? I'll take the forums.

[Indystruck]

Feedback's not harassment unless you're throwing in a lot of unnecessary words!

[Ironblade]

3 minutes ago, GM Widower said:

But then how else would the playerbase communicate their anger to us? Carrier pigeon? I'll take the forums.

A wise decision.  I have been training carrier pigeons to poop on the message recipient.

[amusingsn]

 

2 hours ago, Flintlock Burnfur said:

I'm all for encouraging exploration, which is what the LTR really does.

If by exploration, you mean the tedious task of flipping between a wiki and the game to locate badge locations, then yes: that's what the LTR encourages. 

 

100% agreed. 

 

The LTR encourages the tedious task of flipping between a wiki and the game and flying around to 20 different locations.  And repeating those same tedious tasks for each of your toons.  Each and every one.

 

From the notes, it seems that at least some people on the Dev team realize that this is a problem.  But, imo, the solution isn't to provide a bunch of not-quite-as-tedious badge missions (I think they will be about as popular as the "arrest 10 skulls" style of mission), but rather to just eliminate the badge requirement entirely, or maybe make an exploration badge at each of the base portals in a zone so you get them by visiting the base portal. 

 

At least then I'd only have to afk in Pocket D for an hour and then visit all the base portals in all the zones to get the locales.

 

Or maybe you could unlock the LTR with a mission from City Hall like the old Cape mission.  Even that would be less tedious (and I notice that Cape mission no longer is necessary, presumably because its tedious and why not just let people have capes?).  To see how much people like having to earn the ability to travel places: see how many people earn the Midnight Society badge through the story arc, compared to how many just earn it by walking into the Night Ward mansion.  Also, see how popular it is to travel to Imperious via the LFG system rather than slogging through the Midnight Society portal every time.

 

And for the love of Heroes, please lower the cooldowns.  If you want there to be "many ways" to earn the right to teleport to a base, let one way be sufficient.  Otherwise, you're making it so that people feel like they need to do "all the ways", and that's a burden.

 

If you want to encourage exploration, don't tie rewards to exploration, make it more fun to explore.  Hide little easter eggs that people might find amusing or fun.  Put an ice slide (like in the Frostfire mission) somewhere for people to slide on.  Have some NPCs engage in an amusing conversation somewhere.  I don't know, it seems like tying fast-travel to something as a reward to "encourage" that thing is admitting that the thing you're encouraging isn't fun enough to do without a reward.

[Jimmy]

55 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

Which is still not faster than the previously available option.  Faster than other options, yes, but not faster than the fastest option we used to have.

I disagree. The 2s~ cast times are not equivalent to the travel time saved on the other end (or by the brand new teleport destinations). Plus when using LRT you actually save even more time, as you skip the base entirely. A speedrunning team with all the relevant powers will absolutely never not have a portal or team transporter available.

55 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

Did you read what you quoted?  That statement was specifically in response to a comment about the Day Job powers, and I was pointing out the drawbacks to those powers specifically.  So far as "mixing and matching," the need to do so is what makes this such a complicated and unnecessary mess.  Plus, it seems to be contradictory to this:

Yes, I did.

 

Your comments are relating to the Day Job powers, and they are calling out intrinsic features present in all Day Jobs, not something unique to these powers that we have added. Once again, you are completely free to ignore the Day Job powers if you don't like them, there's plenty of other options available. Just because you don't like them, we're not going to remove them, because other people do wish to use them.

 

Honestly, feedback on specific components or powers of this system that ignores the wider context just isn't that helpful. Feedback that boils down to "I want to cheat and teleport at any time with zero investment" is also not that helpful, because it's a viewpoint that's fundamentally not shared by anyone on the team. Feedback about implementation absolutely is helpful and we did act on much of it. If you read through the original feedback thread and the many, many changes made since the first beta build (and the potential future developments detailed in this thread), you will see exactly that.

Travel powers exist for a reason. Trainers, stores, and crafting locations exist out in the world for a reason. All of the zones in the game have various connections to each other for a reason. All of these other travel options existed in the live game for a reason. The command obviated huge parts of the game. That's not a good thing. If you think otherwise, then I'm not sure how you ever enjoyed the game during retail.

[PtownRebel]

3 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Feedback that boils down to "I want to cheat and teleport at any time with zero investment" is also not that helpful, because it's a viewpoint that's fundamentally not shared by anyone on the team. .... The command obviated huge parts of the game. That's not a good thing. If you think otherwise, then I'm not sure how you ever enjoyed the game during retail.

Wow. I've enjoyed the version I've been able to play for the last 14 months or so. I'm sorry that the "team" fundamentally thinks that I have been cheating for all that time.  Remember, the retail game failed. 

[KeepDistance]

5 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

You and your SG members feedback could've been provided on Discord or via actually beta testing over the past four weeks. It wasn't just on the forums, a notification window in-game /gmotd tells you these changes were being implemented and sought feedback.

I don't believe any amount of feedback during beta would have convinced the devs not to move forward with this change.

 

Edit: The response from Jimmy just above, which I hadn't read yet when I posted, pretty much confirms this.

Edited November 25, 2020 by KeepDistance

[Ironblade]

52 minutes ago, TheSpiritFox said:

Specific request for supergroup base portals. Add functionality to drop a supergroup portal with your base enabled as a menu option for other people. As in, if you drop the portal, the portal will enable them to enter your base to use teleporters and such without them having to know the code or enter the code into a macro or save a code somewhere. 

We currently have this functionality with base portals but only for the team leader's base.

If I understand your comment, you are suggesting that when a person drops the persistent base portal, it should also list as an option the base belonging to the person who dropped the portal.

I agree.  That would make perfect sense in the context of the game and would be a nice feature.  The only downside I see here is that, since the portals all use the same code, this would require rewriting part of the base portal code.  I have no idea how easy or difficult that would be.  But it's definitely a cool idea.

[KeepDistance]

19 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Feedback that boils down to "I want to cheat and teleport at any time with zero investment" is also not that helpful, because it's a viewpoint that's fundamentally not shared by anyone on the team.

I take this to mean you'll be addressing LFG teleporting too at some point? That is a teleport power that has zero investment, no cooldown, and a plethora of destinations.