Hurricane Repel

[Alty]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

I didn't say that. You somehow quoted the OP that I quoted in my post.

Yes I know you didn't say that. I wrote that I was referring to the fact that you had quoted the OP in your post and disregarded the repel part. 😊

 

I think you're missing some of the comments and context when you're reading too fast. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Alty

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I'm going to say it again - based on the way most players play City of Heroes at this point, all the knockback powers should be changed to knockdown and the Sudden Acceleration :: Knockback to Knockdown proc should be changed to a Sudden Acceleration :: Knockdown to Knockback proc

And I'm going to say it again - *Hell No.*

[Alty]

4 minutes ago, Greycat said:

And I'm going to say it again - *Hell No.*

Seconded.

 

KB is useful on powers and those who do not like it can use an IO to change it to KD.  There's no need to change ALL KB to KD just for giggles. 

 

Not to get to far into the KB debate because this is STILL about repel. 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Alty

[seebs]

I wonder whether things like KB/KD/KU could be made into stances, like the staff forms, bio armor adaptations, and so on.

[SeraphimKensai]

10 minutes ago, seebs said:

I wonder whether things like KB/KD/KU could be made into stances, like the staff forms, bio armor adaptations, and so on.

Theoretically they could be as the forms cod inject a modifier into various powers as is done with Dual Pistols, Staff, Bio, etc.

 

If that was the case Knock Up would see more use than knockdown as it adds more time to a target being ragdolled.

 

-----

Regarding Repel, I do like the idea of the reverse repel IO proc, but I understand that option isn't perfect as well.

 

I understand the perspective of a lot of purists, and if something like an IO or the later form toggles didn't exist I would never have even made the original post, as hurricane can definitely be a rewarding power when used right, although also detrimental when used wrong. I'm a big fan of theory crafting new build ideas, and prompting build diversity.

 

Having multiple options available is always a.good thing.

[SwitchFade]

So, I have several stormiest, nd I always take hurricane....

 

And I turn it on when it's needed. Which is usually AV fights to debuff, or emergency hall clearing save the squishies for 4 seconds, then off.

 

It's a brilliant power as is, and is like any other tactical power... Does one put nuke on auto? No, one would queue it when ready.

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, Greycat said:

And I'm going to say it again - *Hell No.*

Explain your reasoning.

 

I'm constantly hearing people complain about knockback or telling people to use the KB to KD proc.

 

[Alty]

On 1/20/2021 at 9:44 PM, plainguy said:

But this power does not herd it scatters. 
I have played hurricane a lot I also ran with one player tormento from repeat offenders and we did a lot of storm teaching on how to use hurricane in holding  mobs into a corner.  We would run around the map pull mobs into a corner.. Then one would stand back turn on Hurricane  while both took hits.. Trading O2 heals..  mobs would be pushed into a corner and the one player would move out of the corner through the others hurricane.  Then take up a position behind and O2 and hurricane a bit off the others center, thus having a double spaced hurricane. 

Hang on... If you ran with Tormentoso he was the founder of Perfect Storms - All Storm Summoning SG, I was also in the SG from Day 1.   Hurricane was different back in 2005 then it is now.   Hurricane received a nerf to how many it could push and how it pushes (slower than before) but the skills provided running with Perfect Storms should have honestly prepared you for the nerf.  It should have also taught you exactly how to herd with hurricane. 

Hurricane most certainly DOES herd but I think you may want hurricane to GATHER AND LOCK them into place.  It's not going to do that as you well know. It will push them into a corner and repel will continue to move the mob along with knockback.  If you remove the repel portion you STILL won't be able to hold the mob in the corner like you imagine.   Hurricane keeps moving and pushing so the player has to keep moving to keep the mob gathered up and in place.  It's not a set it and forget it power. 

I'm kinda disappointed to learn that someone who ran with Tormentoso, who loved Storm Summoning, seems to be lacking understanding of how to herd with hurricane.   Because herding with hurricane was something players came up with, I highly doubt it is what the OG devs intended.  In fact most of the standard players do not attempt to herd with hurricane. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Alty

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Explain your reasoning.

 

I'm constantly hearing people complain about knockback or telling people to use the KB to KD proc.

 

Because knockback is fine. I don't want something I use for positioning and defense globally taken away.  Frankly I think most of the KB complaining is knee jerk reactions. Yes, some people use it poorly. They need to learn not to. The only time I'll agree that KB should universally be gone is when an NPC "ally," especially a pet, uses it, because they don't put any thought into how it's being used. All they do is "gee, I can shoot that now, I'm going to." People should put more thought into it than that, no matter what they're playing..

 

If I'm on a team and someone tells me to slot an IO, I'll tell them where they can slot it.

[Doomguide2005]

I've also seen a member of RO and Perfect Storms whose identity escapes my old memories (either Colonel Kernel or Here Be Dragons) but what they did has not.  I watched them keep a mob trapped along a section of wall.  Not a corner but wall.  That was player skill.  I know it's beyond my Stormy skills despite several taken to 50.  Without the Repel that would not have been possible.   The kd is far too random to make that happen without serious amounts of luck.

[plainguy]

6 hours ago, Alty said:

Hang on... If you ran with Tormentoso he was the founder of Perfect Storms - All Storm Summoning SG, I was also in the SG from Day 1.   Hurricane was different back in 2005 then it is now.   Hurricane received a nerf to how many it could push and how it pushes (slower than before) but the skills provided running with Perfect Storms should have honestly prepared you for the nerf.  It should have also taught you exactly how to herd with hurricane. 

Hurricane most certainly DOES herd but I think you may want hurricane to GATHER AND LOCK them into place.  It's not going to do that as you well know. It will push them into a corner and repel will continue to move the mob along with knockback.  If you remove the repel portion you STILL won't be able to hold the mob in the corner like you imagine.   Hurricane keeps moving and pushing so the player has to keep moving to keep the mob gathered up and in place.  It's not a set it and forget it power. 

I'm kinda disappointed to learn that someone who ran with Tormentoso, who loved Storm Summoning, seems to be lacking understanding of how to herd with hurricane.   Because herding with hurricane was something players came up with, I highly doubt it is what the OG devs intended.  In fact most of the standard players do not attempt to herd with hurricane. 

Sadly your verbiage would indicate I am agreeing or indicating to change how the power actually is working atm out of the box.   Which is totally incorrect. 

I clearly expressed an IO.. No one forces anyone to use an IO.. 
So it is sort of sad that you would contort my words to make your point.

 

I don't want it to gather and lock. 
I repeatedly made my point in many different fashions to make it clear. 

As you stated, you highly doubt the the OG devs created hurricane to herd..  
So my statement that it was meant to scatter is correct..  Which is what I have been saying.. Thank you for supporting my point.. 
Mind you I also made that same comment that players created herding.. It was in line with the comment of players use powers differently then devs usually expect them to use them. 

Nonetheless I don't get your gripe over an IO..  I really think your picking the fly poo out of the pepper here.. Its an IO.. Again no one forcing anyone to do anything here.. What is the big deal with an option?  At the end of the day if the devs here look and go if this player only knew how extremely difficult it is to create an IO do this he would not be asking this on the suggestions forums.  

OR 

They might go heck of all the things we want to do creating IOs to do something different in a power isn't the hardest.. 

If you want to debate why the request for an IO is bad and how it would ruin something and how it would ruin the game for you to be playing with a player that has repel suppressed then by all means do so..  

But you are debating with me as if I wanted to change the inherit power of Hurricane for everyone  without asking them. Which is utterly and totally incorrect and false..

 

 

[plainguy]

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

Because knockback is fine. I don't want something I use for positioning and defense globally taken away.  Frankly I think most of the KB complaining is knee jerk reactions. Yes, some people use it poorly. They need to learn not to. The only time I'll agree that KB should universally be gone is when an NPC "ally," especially a pet, uses it, because they don't put any thought into how it's being used. All they do is "gee, I can shoot that now, I'm going to." People should put more thought into it than that, no matter what they're playing..

 

If I'm on a team and someone tells me to slot an IO, I'll tell them where they can slot it.

100% correct.

I have an AR Device toon based around AOE and no trip mine as it was created before the change..  All my KB powers have KD IOs in them.. That was MY CHOICE for my game play..  I didn't do it because I was afraid a team wouldn't like me.. 

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, plainguy said:

Sadly your verbiage would indicate I am agreeing or indicating to change how the power actually is working atm out of the box.   Which is totally incorrect. 

I clearly expressed an IO.. No one forces anyone to use an IO.. 
So it is sort of sad that you would contort my words to make your point.

 

I don't want it to gather and lock. 
I repeatedly made my point in many different fashions to make it clear. 

As you stated, you highly doubt the the OG devs created hurricane to herd..  
So my statement that it was meant to scatter is correct..  Which is what I have been saying.. Thank you for supporting my point.. 
Mind you I also made that same comment that players created herding.. It was in line with the comment of players use powers differently then devs usually expect them to use them. 

Nonetheless I don't get your gripe over an IO..  I really think your picking the fly poo out of the pepper here.. Its an IO.. Again no one forcing anyone to do anything here.. What is the big deal with an option?  At the end of the day if the devs here look and go if this player only knew how extremely difficult it is to create an IO do this he would not be asking this on the suggestions forums.  

OR 

They might go heck of all the things we want to do creating IOs to do something different in a power isn't the hardest.. 

If you want to debate why the request for an IO is bad and how it would ruin something and how it would ruin the game for you to be playing with a player that has repel suppressed then by all means do so..  

But you are debating with me as if I wanted to change the inherit power of Hurricane for everyone  without asking them. Which is utterly and totally incorrect and false..

 

 

So to be clear:

 

you are proposing an IO be created that impacts 1 power in 1 power set. What set should it go in?

[plainguy]

On 1/21/2021 at 7:04 PM, Dragon Crush said:

So, you can do this but some others can't, almost as if soloing at 4/8 with a petless mastermind takes some sort of skill or thought on how to approach the situation...

 

 

No as I clearly mentioned it just an understanding of the game mechanics around defenses..

Which is why I have it in my signature for other players to understand.   

So I am not just giving someone a fish I am also teaching them how to fish IF they are interested in doing so..  

If someone came to me and said I don't get how you do this.. I would happy to explain and I have explained several times on other post about defenses..  
I was happy when someone pointed me to the link and explained it to me. Again I am the same plainguy from the old original forums so you can use wayback machine to find post I made.. I am positive there are post me asking about defenses and Adenonhawkwood was one of the players who took the time to explain it along with that link in my signature..  Which is about 10 years old but still up.. 

But as for Hurricane, You know I would LOVE to have hurricane up at all times when fighting.. I would love to give the debuff it offers to the whole team. Without messing up the Tank or Brutes herding ability.. Heck having the OPTION in the form of an IO ( yea it seems I have exaggerate these word, because it seems other posters are not reading it when I keep saying it) might give other players whom might be short on defenses melee wise and AOE but are range defensed the ability to pull and herd mobs for those moments there is no tankish type player on the team.. 

 

Again its an IO.. Not a base power change.. 
 

 

[Outrider_01]

15 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Okay, so maybe I don't understand the difference between repel and knockback.

Roll 2 blasters, one /Energy and the other /Martial than go to Outbreak.  Similar power, quick punch...one causes them to fly away and the other to just drift away with ragdoll physics; you will giggle every time.

[plainguy]

17 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

So to be clear:

 

you are proposing an IO be created that impacts 1 power in 1 power set. What set should it go in?

No

 

To be more clear.. 

 

I stated already it just ONE IO..  When you brought up the penalty of using this sort of IO I explained that ONE IO would hinder the user from getting that set bonus.. So if someone were to six slot Hurricane they now could only benefit from 5 slots of the set as this IO would kill the 6th slot..

That could be part of the penalty as well. 
So as you mentioned you felt that the hit debuff should be reduced for some reason. Why I don't know..
 

Mind you this is no different then slotting a KB to KD IO in a power but also using a different set for the other 5 slots  

Example.. 

M30 Grenade - 5 slotted with Superior Defiant Barrage and 1  Overwhelming Force KB to KD IO..  You loose 5% defense increase to Energy and Negative and 2.5% to Range Defense.

As much as I would have liked that 2.5% Range Defense I had to get it somewhere else.. Because I didn't want M30 Grenade to do that KB.. 

Sacrifices you make. 

 

 

 

 

[Outrider_01]

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Explain your reasoning.

 

I'm constantly hearing people complain about knockback or telling people to use the KB to KD proc.

 

Because face roll herding for AoE is easy mode and people don't like easy mode when its messed up.  In fact, for the whole knockback issue; lets reduce aggro cap to 6, all AoE  to 8/4 and that should fix the knockback issue; now you can't really do much to create a herd so it wouldn't matter.

[plainguy]

2 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

I've also seen a member of RO and Perfect Storms whose identity escapes my old memories (either Colonel Kernel or Here Be Dragons) but what they did has not.  I watched them keep a mob trapped along a section of wall.  Not a corner but wall.  That was player skill.  I know it's beyond my Stormy skills despite several taken to 50.  Without the Repel that would not have been possible.   The kd is far too random to make that happen without serious amounts of luck.

Look in all honesty you cannot keep mobs up against a flat wall.. 

 

The mobs will get knocked down and repelled. 

Eventually they get back up and move..  They might fall again.. But eventually they move to a focal point that puts them at an angle of this flat wall.. Which then causes them to just slide to the left or right and away from your  hold.  

Could several stormers do this by spacing apart and such.. I would guess so..  

Still doesn't answer why an IO would be such a horrendous game breaking idea..

 

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, plainguy said:

No

 

To be more clear.. 

 

I stated already it just ONE IO..  When you brought up the penalty of using this sort of IO I explained that ONE IO would hinder the user from getting that set bonus.. So if someone were to six slot Hurricane they now could only benefit from 5 slots of the set as this IO would kill the 6th slot..

That could be part of the penalty as well. 
So as you mentioned you felt that the hit debuff should be reduced for some reason. Why I don't know..
 

Mind you this is no different then slotting a KB to KD IO in a power but also using a different set for the other 5 slots  

Example.. 

M30 Grenade - 5 slotted with Superior Defiant Barrage and 1  Overwhelming Force KB to KD IO..  You loose 5% defense increase to Energy and Negative and 2.5% to Range Defense.

As much as I would have liked that 2.5% Range Defense I had to get it somewhere else.. Because I didn't want M30 Grenade to do that KB.. 

Sacrifices you make. 

 

 

 

 

But that’s not how IOs work, they always come in sets.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, plainguy said:

Look in all honesty you cannot keep mobs up against a flat wall.. 

 

The mobs will get knocked down and repelled. 

Eventually they get back up and move..  They might fall again.. But eventually they move to a focal point that puts them at an angle of this flat wall.. Which then causes them to just slide to the left or right and away from your  hold.  

Could several stormers do this by spacing apart and such.. I would guess so..  

Still doesn't answer why an IO would be such a horrendous game breaking idea..

 

It has been explained. You have to keep moving. Figure it out.

[plainguy]

3 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Because face roll herding for AoE is easy mode and people don't like easy mode when its messed up.  In fact, for the whole knockback issue; lets reduce aggro cap to 6, all AoE  to 8/4 and that should fix the knockback issue; now you can't really do much to create a herd so it wouldn't matter.

I will add that some players do calculate INF  like when farming the INF per minute.. 
If they can do an 8/4 mission setting in 5 minutes and now they are doing it in 8 minutes it can be a big issue for some players..  In their minds they know they are loosing X amount of INF and they just don't like it.. 
EG Speed ITF vs Non Speed.. 

I farm for example but I never do the math of how much I make or am missing.. For me I am just happy I can do it when I want to and I can PL one of my crazy builds to 50 when I know I can never get a team with them for example..  

 

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It has been explained. You have to keep moving. Figure it out.

No.. because when you move against a flat wall YOU are now creating the angle that pushes a mob out..  

Again you are really stuck on this LRN2PLAY hurricane power notion.. 

Its about repel and if there should be an OPTION not to have it. 
 

[plainguy]

16 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

But that’s not how IOs work, they always come in sets.

Do you see now you are coming after me on parameters of the IO set.. 

Do you see how you keep moving the goal post. It was about a change in repel.. I mentioned the IO OPTION..

Now you want to hawk me for details on an IO Set and how this whole concept now is bad in your mind because I cannot produce the accurate information on an IO SET that could be somehow validated and approved by the community ( specifically you). Or even required to post a suggestion on the Suggestion forums.

 

Who says always.. Just because that is how it is TODAY.. It doesn't mean that how it MUST BE TOMORROW.. 

Again the devs could come here and say No dude.. IOs just can't work that way.. THEY MUST BE a FULL SET..

 

Or 

They might come here and say you know with one off IOs we can put in a bunch of different options and it just up to the player to decide if are willing to loose the benefit of an IO set.. 

 

Or

They create an IO set.. 
Someone smarter than me can figure that out and post it here if they are so inclined.. 

Suggestion forums.. Nothing says we have to outline the whole project when giving a suggestion.. 

That is the whole point of putting out on the suggestion forum. Someone else gets an interest and says you know I have an idea for this so called set.. Here is a break down of my IO set bonus for this Repel removal IO set..

 

 

EDIT

old Devs said Mastermind pets could not be changed.. Other servers have found work arounds to make that possible.  

The new Devs have made it clear from time to time that some of this code they see is utterly messed up.. Just horrible patch jobs that even they cannot discern why its there and what it is doing and have cleaned it up..  

I gave you this great idea.. My job is done.. 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by plainguy

[plainguy]

On 1/21/2021 at 7:01 PM, Dragon Crush said:

Sounds like you're starting to intentionally mis-represent things to make a point.  "The trick is to...." is a fairly common saying, and doesn't need to involve doing something you're not supposed to do or some form of deceit. "The trick to driving at night is good headlights" or "the trick to not suffocating is to inhale non-toxic levels of oxygen" are valid sentences and shouldn't imply the "correct way" of doing things is to drive at night without headlights or sucking down >15% or <80% oxygen for extended periods.

Yes I see what you are saying.. 
But your analogy isn't the best because they are sort of a necessity or you can have a bad outcome..

You are required by law to turn headlights on at night.. Failure to do so could be a summons or arrest for neglectful homicide. There are guidelines.

 

There are no guidelines here.. 
I also mentioned in a previous post you failed to quote in which I mentioned that players usually end up doing thing with powers that Devs never expected..

For example like herding with hurricane. This was echoed by another poster Alty in attempting to refute a comment but also failed to see I mentioned this as well. 

 

The issue is Wavicle is stuck in the notion of LRN2PLAY. Is completely ignoring the fact that this is a suggestion forums.. The fact that no one is saying to change the power out of the box for everyone and that an OPTION to make a change with an IO is possible.. MAYBE.. I say Maybe because it could be possible that Repel is baked into the power somehow and just cannot be changed without recoding the whole power.

 

And now in an attempt to grasp at straws is now challenging me on what this IO set would be and its requirements..

 

Again not an impossible feat of recoding since I believe the current Devs have done this with other powers. Not minimizing the task or the prioritization either.  

[plainguy]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

But that’s not how IOs work, they always come in sets.

Something else just popped into my head..

Have you ever used PW vendor ? 

Have you never seen those SINGLE IOs that are only good until level 20..  They have procs and such.. 

That sort of blows your always comes in sets statement out of the water..

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, plainguy said:

Something else just popped into my head..

Have you ever used PW vendor ? 

Have you never seen those SINGLE IOs that are only good until level 20..  They have procs and such.. 

That sort of blows your always comes in sets statement out of the water..

No. Those aren’t IOs.