"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[oedipus_tex]

4 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Still think MM pets should not be lower level. Every MM I've tried to play and failed with sends me right back to this belief. Pets should be even level to the MM in question for all content.

 

I 100% agree. I'm also coming around to believe MM pets should have innate AoE Defense. I believe Lore Pets already have this. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Apparition]

10 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

I 100% agree. I'm also coming around to believe MM pets should have innate AoE Defense. I believe Lore Pets already have this. 

 

I'm told all pets in World of Warcraft have high AoE defense for the same reason, (I've never played WoW, so I'm just going by what I've been told).

[Black Zot]

8 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

I 100% agree. I'm also coming around to believe MM pets should have innate AoE Defense. I believe Lore Pets already have this. 

 

Nothing quite like going through the trouble to summon and buff up the full squad only watch them all get deleted by one Foot Stomp.

[Black Zot]

Just now, Apparition said:

 

I'm told all pets in World of Warcraft have high AoE defense for the same reason, (I've never played WoW, so I'm just going by what I've been told).

 

They do indeed.  Last I checked, it was 80% damage reduction versus all AoE attacks, applied after the pet's native mitigation versus the damage type.  So if the pet was 20% resistant to physical damage and got hit with a dragon's cleave attack, 100 damage would become 80, then that 80 would be reduced to 16.

 

This was deemed necessary as there are several classes in WoW that rely heavily on pets to be effective, and raid bosses in particular were just wiping them out pretty much by accident and gimping those characters.

[Galaxy Brain]

I wonder if this could be emulated by granting the pets Elusivity to counteract attack accuracy from AoEs, which would then stack with other defenses in much the same way,

[Hew]

On mm, I just cant play them. I try and try and try, but just can never seem to be able to play one.

[Black Zot]

10 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I wonder if this could be emulated by granting the pets Elusivity to counteract attack accuracy from AoEs, which would then stack with other defenses in much the same way,

 

That'd probably be about as close as you could get with CoH's combat engine.  Pets would still get instagibbed, just not nearly as often.

 

Personally, I'd really like it if pets had the same "last chance hit point" protection that players got, so they couldn't be erased from full.

[tidge]

The MM henchmen is a completely different sort of balance issue separate than any effect of slotting. Just because there are IO pieces which can be slotted for henchmen's defenses doesn't make it relevant for this thread.

 

Can we just lock this thread? Even before the MM discussion it wasn't much more than simply asking for harder mode.

[Galaxy Brain]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

The MM henchmen is a completely different sort of balance issue separate than any effect of slotting. Just because there are IO pieces which can be slotted for henchmen's defenses doesn't make it relevant for this thread.

 

Can we just lock this thread? Even before the MM discussion it wasn't much more than simply asking for harder mode.

The other half of the thread beyond harder content is looking at how IO's themselves are balanced. The MM pets are a unique case where it is sort of "required" you get all the aura IO's, and then the inter set balance is in question as some MM sets have an extra pet that can mule the auras, etc.

 

Likewise, certain things like Bonfire with Knockdown, how certain powers can be proc bombs, how some AT's get AMAZING bonuses with their ATO's and some don't, or how certain IO sets are for lack of a better term just obsolete. Those are all valid talking points within the thread that do not have to explicitly deal with harder content, but it is linked up with how IO's do make you stronger than what most of the game was made for.

 

Looping back to the MM pets, yes they need more care than just the IO's, but as-is those IOs are a balancing point. If the MM pets get buffed and the IOs remain the same, would they then be too strong? Are they too reliant on them as is?

Edited March 10, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[tidge]

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The other half of the thread beyond harder content is looking at how IO's themselves are balanced. The MM pets are a unique case where it is sort of "required" you get all the aura IO's, and then the inter set balance is in question as some MM sets have an extra pet that can mule the auras, etc.

If no other class can slot Mastermind ATO, I don't know how the discussion about game-balance around IOs is relevant to that question. That is a question about Mastermind balance, and not enhancement sets.

 

Full disclosure: if my Dominators could two-slot the Mastermind ATOs (in their pets) they absolutely would... but I don't think such a discussion is valid for whatever this thread is.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Every 5-10 pages I check in to see what this thread is about now.  Pets.  Ok!  I'll catch up with y'all later then.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

43 minutes ago, tidge said:

If no other class can slot Mastermind ATO, I don't know how the discussion about game-balance around IOs is relevant to that question. That is a question about Mastermind balance, and not enhancement sets.

 

Full disclosure: if my Dominators could two-slot the Mastermind ATOs (in their pets) they absolutely would... but I don't think such a discussion is valid for whatever this thread is.

It has to do with the Mastermind IO's, which also reaches into the pet IO's with their aura's which are predominantly used by MM's

[oedipus_tex]

Pets are being discussed because this thread asked whether the game should be balanced around IOs. You can't IO pets other than the global procs so they fall behind. It's worth talking about how pets should fit into this balance. I suspect the answer is, in part, more IOs for them.

[Snarky]

11 hours ago, tidge said:

The MM henchmen is a completely different sort of balance issue separate than any effect of slotting. Just because there are IO pieces which can be slotted for henchmen's defenses doesn't make it relevant for this thread.

 

Can we just lock this thread? Even before the MM discussion it wasn't much more than simply asking for harder mode.

I really consider this a zombie thread,  It has been dead for a long time but just keeps wandering around in circles waiting for someone to put it out of it's misery.

[Troo]

I can help with that.

 

/REGENERATION IS THE MOST POPULAR SECONDARY!!

 

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

I really consider this a zombie thread,  It has been dead for a long time but just keeps wandering around in circles waiting for someone to put it out of it's misery.

Its still been active day to day, and the main points have been met with a big: "Maybe?"

 

@Luminara had great input, and upon running some tests with Broadsword + isolated uniques it showed some interesting results. This went in circles tho, but the pivot to ATO's is one I have great interest in, as alongside Pet IO's it raises a question of if AT's are sort of where they are due to them?

 

For example, Brutes vs Scrappers had their dynamic changed as Scrappers had their ATO that is gamechanging. Without the ATO, are they balanced vs Brutes? To a different extent, how do Stalkers compare without theirs? Are powers that get converted to KD and become killers balanced with / without the KD IO's? If pets get buffed but the IO's remain the same, do they become unbalanced? 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Galaxy Brain
typo

[Luminara]

31 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Luminara had great input, and upon running some tests with Broadsword + isolated uniques it showed some interesting results.

 

Still waiting on the rest of the test results.

[Galaxy Brain]

On 3/10/2021 at 10:04 PM, Luminara said:

 

Still waiting on the rest of the test results.

 

So I'm gonna redo them with some more defined parameters.

 

Goals: Test the clear speed (Raw time) and safety (damage taken) per run of the mission simulator with the following:

 

1) SO only, baseline. Difficulty will always be 0/3 per run for all these to compare.

 

2) 1 Damage proc per attack where able, all other slotting the same values as SO's. 

 

2) 2 damage procs per attack, all other slotted values the same as SO's

 

3-5) Measure utility procs where able and record results (repeat this per utility, mainly -Res and +Rech, there are a few relevant mez ones too like adding Stun/Knockdown, etc) 

 

6) On the defense, slotting up the +Regen/Heal IO's is hard to measure, but with something like the "Chance of Heal" procs (Panacea, etc) I can slot them in and count how often they procced, and remove that from the damage taken? This may require some math with the avg regen values to measure with / without the regen IO's to say how much damage was healed but it's doable.

 

(Example, a set without heals will rely on Health to get by on a Scrapper, at base with 3 SO's they regen 9.93 HPS. With Miracle and Numina, this is bumped to 11.27 HPS. If they average 300s per mission, this is a difference of 2979 hp recovered and 3381 hp recovered (+402), which can make a difference with an attack or two over time... eh? This gets worse comparatively with sets that already have regen or healing but still. I could combine the two factors by measuring how often heal procs go off + factor the regen / the time stat and come to a conclusion)

 

7) Likewise on defense, I can slot all the Res/Def uniques and see how that bump compares to the damage taken.

 

8.  Combine all but use SO values outside of the procs

 

9) Combine all with a standardized IO set per power

 

10) replace relevant procs and sets with purples

 

 

 

A-1) Use one ATO at a time, measure the impact on an SO only build with that

 

A-2) Use both ATO's as above

 

A-3~5) Steps 8-10 above but add ATO's

[Infinitum]

On 3/10/2021 at 8:42 PM, Troo said:

I can help with that.

 

/REGENERATION IS THE MOST POPULAR SECONDARY!!

 

[Troo]

Ha!

(<caution> shameless digs ahead <caution>)

Is that a picture of the echo chamber where folks play arm chair game developer?

If not, it could be. At least the shown characters know what they are not good at. 🙂

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

Ha!

(<caution> shameless digs ahead <caution>)

Is that a picture of the echo chamber where folks play arm chair game developer?

If not, it could be. At least the shown characters know what they are not good at. 🙂

 

 

I'm confused, whatchu mean?

[Troo]

See the Thermians, led by Mathesar, believe episodes of a defunct Earth TV show are true historical documentaries. Inspired by the crew's adventures, they have based their society on the virtues espoused by the show and even manufactured a functioning replica of the show's ship...

 

Just jokes and trying to flip the post back on the poster by fitting it to some kabal (which doesn't exist) narrative. The use of 'caution' was to alert any readers to the bad joke and avoid any confusion..

 

Wait,.. what do YOU mean?

[Galaxy Brain]

7 hours ago, Troo said:

Wait,.. what do YOU mean?

 

Ohhh lol, I was more asking how that had to do with "armchair game dev"

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Ohhh lol, I was more asking how that had to do with "armchair game dev"

 

Pretty sure the only difference between dev and armchair dev is salary. And the only difference between armchair dev and unpaid dev is.... nothing.

 

Course, that fact makes me question certain forum moderator decisions, but whatever... I'm not volunteering to moderate the forums, am I?

Edited March 15, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Galaxy Brain]

11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Pretty sure the only difference between dev and armchair dev is salary. And the only difference between armchair dev and unpaid dev is.... nothing.

 

Course, that fact makes me question certain forum moderator decisions, but whatever... I'm not volunteering to moderate the forums, am I?

 

Yes and no, technically any one of us can hop into Orodev and make their own version of CoH. The seperator between armchair _____ and the real deal is effort / experience!