"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[KauaiJim]

18 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Couldn’t agree more!  Why not bring down the far surpassers?

 

Again I appreciate your honesty.  This is a very different mind set from what I have.  I'm starting to finally get the message of what some of you are really wanting here.  Which is okay but something I do not agree with here on HC.  Like all of us I am along for the ride.  Guess we'll see where this goes.

 

So has the idea of maybe making content that challenges folks with soft capped defense even been considered or am I now spouting crazy talk?  Just a thought.

[KauaiJim]

24 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

I want to play CoH for a long time with a healthy community.

 

Me too.  I think we have a different opinion of 'healthy' though.  Which is okay.  More crazy talk from KauaiJim - Is this not a 'healthy' community?  Not making a joke here.  I really feel like this community is one of the 'healthiest' I've been part of.  The implications of a statement like this however lead me to feel like I'm the odd one out here who is completely disconnected from reality.  It's like one of those threads where folks bring up how awful something is and I pause and think "Wait, I'm enjoying that.  Am I not supposed to?".  Honestly all, if I am the odd one out I'm okay with that.  I'm just not on the same page with some of you on this one.  Sorry.  Look it's me not you (lol). 

[Brutal Justice]

30 minutes ago, KauaiJim said:

So has the idea of maybe making content that challenges folks with soft capped defense even been considered or am I now spouting crazy talk?  Just a thought.

 

They did this with the +ToHit incarnate mobs.  The problem isn’t so much adding challenge.  There are already systems in place to add challenge.  However, They should add rewards for the added challenge, which they don’t.  

 

The problem is is when these builds built to handle those challenges enter normal play and trivialize it and any teammates they may end up with.  

21 minutes ago, KauaiJim said:

Is this not a 'healthy' community?

 

It is healthy now but it’s fading and the more people feel superfluous the quicker they leave.  

[Arbegla]

While I can agree that the game can seem very easy in some areas, putting a 40% hard cap on defense just simply isn't the best way to handle 'balance'.

 

This has been shown time and time again, the difference between 40% defense and 45% defense is literally getting hit twice as often, and it doesn't affect Resistance sets nearly as much as it would affect defense sets.

 

Defense, while powerful, already has a massive weakness in cascading failure, as it is very hard to get DDR. You either need to have it inherently, or pick a very specific Destiny power, and then use that just before the cascade kicks in and kills you. This is even more evident by people who don't actually understand what the 'softcap' gives you, as 45% defense only floors the tohit for white minions and lower. Anything higher has built in accuracy bonuses that increases their 'floor' on their tohit to above the 5% rate. Regardless of what defense you have, its affecting a different side of the equation, so more defense isn't going to help you against the 'rank' and 'level' accuracy boosts that mobs get inherently.

 

Hard capping defense at 40% would mean completely reworking the combat formula, adjusting resistance sets accordingly, and simply changing the whole game on a fundamental level. Its not at all the way to try to 'balance' IOs and other high end characters.

 

The idea that temp powers, base boosts, P2W powers, and emailed inspirations are somehow the norm, and need to be balanced against is also pretty insane, as I can count the number of people who actively know those things exist AND use them regularly on 1 hand. They shouldn't be part of the balance equation at all, as they aren't really under the normal bounds of game play.

 

I would argue that there are many different ways to build a powerful character, but enhancements and Incarnates are the primary ways that a normal player would push for. Enhancements can mean using high end IO sets (purples, PvP IOs, ATOs, boosters to +5 etc), middle of the road sets (no purples, PvP IOs, ATOs, but still pushing for set bonuses), Low end sets (Frankenslotting, procs, etc), and pure SOs. Incarnates can literally mean any combination of the Incarnate powers, ranging from no Incarnate powers at all, all the way to up to T4 everything.

 

And Balancing for each of the above combinations (High end IOs + T4 everything vs Low End Sets + T4 everything vs High End IOs + No Incarnates vs Middle of the road IOs + t2 incarnates on just Alpha/Destiny/Interface.. so on and so forth) is going to be hard. And that is before you account for muscle memory and simply knowing the game mechanics.

 

A SOs build in the hands of me, or Billz would simply perform better then a high end IO set build in the hands of someone who has never played City of Heroes before. How do you balance around that?

[KauaiJim]

3 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

It is healthy now but it’s fading

 

I don't see that.  But I can understand the concern for it.  Also, using the "this game is going to die" if things aren't made the way that I think they should be thing has been going on for since forever.  And while it turns out to be true sometimes, most often it does not.  The problem is, this kind of talk/think is always very subjective to perception bias.  Which is exactly what is happening with this particular topic.  This is Homecoming folks.  I came here with no expectations.  I still have none.  If you guys would rather take your free car apart and rebuild it then okay.  Doesn't mean it wasn't perfectly drivable to begin with.  Just means you guys have demands and expectations and fears about the community drying up, and game balance etc. etc.  and because you are WANTING these particular things you feel they are necessary for the health of life of the game.  In other words, we all have a bad habit of putting our thumb on the scale to back up how we feel, which makes sense as far as behavior goes but doesn't make it automatically a truth or reality.  I get where you are coming from though.  I just simply disagree that there is some kind of urgency here or CoH is gonna DIE!  I mean, it almost seems like people are reluctant to acknowledge the uniqueness of this situation and the obvious unknowns that come with it.  Are you really trying to tell me CoH is going to die?  Seriously.  Do you not see how this argument barely has legs at this point?  This behemoth just rose from the frikken dead and has one of the strongest dedicated followings in mmo history!  It's hard for me to see what you are predicting as coming true.  That's all.  Will the population here ebb and flow as it always does and has...  Yep.  Will it DIE?  I doubt it.  

 

This is also a great point:

"A SOs build in the hands of me, or Billz would simply perform better then a high end IO set build in the hands of someone who has never played City of Heroes before. How do you balance around that?"  

 

I'm not saying it can't be done, but dang if you all aren't pretending what some of you are proposing here won't have a potentially MASSIVE negative impact on a lot of folks.  But since we're all super knowledgeable lifelong mmorpg subject matter experts and grandmaster players (a.k.a. veterans. saying this seriously) we tend to overlook the HUGE number of folks you know, just playing a game with whatever skills and knowledge and time they have.  And a lot of these folks don't have the time or skill to jump the hurdles some feel HAVE TO BE IN PLACE for people to have fun.  If you don't like being on the same server where easy mode is allowed why not just say that?  I really do understand that point of view.  I just disagree.

 

REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT (lol):  You guys have a valid point about trivialization.  Your approach to it sorta stinks though. (imo)  And this is coming from a guy that has been in top end raiding guilds, created and run medium sized guilds, put together and run teams in difficult content, tanked, dps'ed and even healed.  I've mentioned this before but I spent 2 1/2 months camping Stormfeather and getting into group fights with others for the craaazy rare/random spawn to get the 'Eyepatch of Plunder' in EQ.  I've lost levels dying.  I've done corpse runs and had to 'hire' people to help me get my body back. And I've done the insane grind thing and the log in to find my build no longer valid to only to have to redo it, again.  lol  Probably the only thing I haven't done is the 'permadeath' idea because that's too far for me. 

 

I did the 'Unconquered' challenge in AOC a couple years back (without cheating).  It was hard,  I died a few times and had to start completely over, and it took a long time and a lot of nail biting to do.  Was fun but NOT something I crave all of the time or else.  In fact I'm pretty burned out on that stuff at this point.

 

Do I sound like someone who doesn't appreciate your point of view?  I hope not.  I'm just not finding that exhilaration/risk/reward/'look what I can do' stuff as FUN anymore.  I'm not wanting Hello Kitty either.  But this issue keeps getting presented as binary - a full across the board redesign / rebalance OR ELSE!  That I am struggling with.  But I accept.  I cannot change how you feel nor will I try to.  But please by all means be HONEST with the community that this kind of thing gets darn tricky and never pleases everyone.  I'm sure it will please those of us with the loudest voices but what about everyone else?  Is the population fluctuating (like it always does everywhere) going to become the predictive argument for radical change or nothing here?

 

Lastly - I mean to upset or stress no one by trying to make my points here.  I can take a break from this thread if you all feel I'm just being irritating (which I am trying not to be).  🤪

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by KauaiJim

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, America's Angel said:

You would probably find the super hard TFs a struggle, then.

 

The game won't let me start iTrials solo, so I don't know. But when teamed, I've never found anything in this game a struggle, possibly because I've always avoided cheaty playstyles.

 

Edit: Except Aeon in MLTF. That punk...

Edited May 20, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[ForeverLaxx]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

Design a rare thing or two around incarnates and IO’s by all means please, but absolutely nothing should be designed around people that abuse tricks and temp powers etc if you ask me

Honestly, I'm finding a bit of humor in certain people throwing around the "we're the real hardcore" moniker because they chug skittles and only build their character to account for what skittles don't provide (recharge/damage procs). But I'm one of those "weird people" who will min/max a character concept in a no-outside-buffs state because shoving a bunch of buffs down my character's throat is effectively just giving Mario a permaStar powerup and pretending I'm good at the game because I'm invincible and one-shot every enemy without trying at the fastest possible speed.

 

The "real" hardcore are the people doing no-hit, no gear, lowest possible level, full DLC Dark Souls runs with just their fists. The "really real" hardcore are doing that with a Guitar Hero controller (yes, people do this).

 

To me, chugging what amounts to a bunch of overpowered potions in other-game-terms to trivialize encounters is the opposite of being "hardcore". It's gaming the system in another way, and it's not particularly impressive either. When someone says they solo'd a raid boss, and they tell me they had a full raid buff them first while they downed "ignore the mechanics" potions, I just roll my eyes.

[Galaxy Brain]

4 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

Speaking purely in the context of balancing super hard level 50 TFs...you 100% can balance around these extras. You just have to assume players:

-Stack insps to be at the +dam cap.

-Stack insps to be at the +def cap / are softcapped through IO bonuses

-Have Destiny bonuses.

-Have controllable Lore pets.

-Puts out a certain amount of -res.

-Have high global +rech

 

There's ways to counter all of this with PVE mobs: Autohit attacks counter excess defense, AVs with large AoE debuffs that reduce damage/recharge/accuracy by like 200%, control attacks which turn your lore pets against you, have AVs/missions that require the use of certain inspirations to function (and thus reduce the amount of insp tray space for other stuff.)

 

Anything can be countered by a dev team with enough time on their hands.

 

Sure, in theory they *could* balance around anything, it doesn't make it the best idea to.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, KauaiJim said:

  If the real concern or complaint is that this game (even prior to live shut down) had made so many things available to players as to trivialize content AND offer nothing that challenges them I could not agree more.  Pointing at IO's makes sense because they contribute to that 'problem'.  Feeling like an ED or NGE level game rebalance is in order though I just can't get on board.  I know that IS NOT what some of you are saying, but I'm getting the feeling that is what some of you are wanting. 

 

I don't think we need another ED / NGE lvl change (at least impact wise), so much as getting our bearings on how @America's Angel put it: how do people actually play the game? If we see that "oh, most people do indeed use IO's" then it may be worth balancing around them in some fashion a bit more. Stuff like making crappy IO sets good is also in this realm as its not all just focusing on the tip top to dial it back!

[Brutal Justice]

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

While I can agree that the game can seem very easy in some areas, putting a 40% hard cap on defense just simply isn't the best way to handle 'balance'.

 

This has been shown time and time again, the difference between 40% defense and 45% defense is literally getting hit twice as often, and it doesn't affect Resistance sets nearly as much as it would affect defense sets.

 

I provided the numbers myself back on page 16 of this same thread. 

I clearly showed how out of line 45% defense was when compared to 75% resistance.  40% defense at +4 still outperformed the 75% resist cap at +4.  

 

How about instead of saying it overly punishes defense sets compared to resistance sets, we say it balances defense compared to resistance?

[America's Angel]

3 hours ago, arcane said:

I consider this game 99% pretty easy and I will never use my email for more inspirations. Design a rare thing or two around incarnates and IO’s by all means please, but absolutely nothing should be designed around people that abuse tricks and temp powers etc if you ask me. Fuck that.

 

10 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Sure, in theory they *could* balance around anything, it doesn't make it the best idea to.

  

Well in that case, in order for us to balance really hard new level 50 TFs, we need to look at how purple/orange/red/yellow inspirations function at 50.

 

One approach would be reducing their strength. Another could be to stop them stacking.

 

Considering all the tools we have available to us at level 50. It doesn't make sense that purple/orange/red/yellow inspirations are as powerful as they are. Level 1-50 they work fine. (And should be kept that way for 1-50.) But at 50 they are ridiculous. Case in point: I basically have infinite money in this game - why would I ever build for defense when I can buy a 50% defense inspiration for 1 million? Why slot for damage when I can just put myself at the damage cap?

 

That said, I think green/blue/break frees/rez insps are all fine. And I think being able to email yourself insps is fine. (Lots of casual players do this with rez inspirations. Wouldn't want to take this away from them.)

[arcane]

I love inspirations just fine. I just think the email trick in particular - as if 20 isn’t already enough - sounds akin to a cheat code - cheesy, lame, and antithetical to a meaningful gaming experience. And I don’t want to have to buy those stupid temp powers from a pay to win vendor either while we’re at it. 

[KauaiJim]

Well just for giggles before I call it a night, I thought "what if I ask the OP question literally"  well okay then...

 

NO.

 

It should be balanced around EVERYTHING.  Not one or two things while ignoring everything else.  Did I solve the thread?  Where's my t-shirt?

 roflmfbo

 

g'nite my friends - see you all tomorrow.  Love you all 🙃

[Hew]

For reference, Hello Kitty was(is?) a term for acid on stamps that were sent to inmates/hospital patients ostensibly to stamp letters to be sent out. Do not ask how I know this. 🙂

[Snarky]

Is anything balanced?  An interesting metaphorical question.  More to the point while some games may, at first glance, appear balanced they are not.  Clever players quickly find the exploits and work arounds.  Do we then pretend the clever solutions do not exist and continue to call it 'balanced?'  Entropy increases folks.  Entropy increases...

Edited May 20, 2021 by Snarky

[Arbegla]

12 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

I provided the numbers myself back on page 16 of this same thread. 

I clearly showed how out of line 45% defense was when compared to 75% resistance.  40% defense at +4 still outperformed the 75% resist cap at +4.  

 

How about instead of saying it overly punishes defense sets compared to resistance sets, we say it balances defense compared to resistance?

 

Except 6 ATs don't cap at 75% resistance. And two of them cap at 90% resistance. Did you run the numbers on those ranges too? I looked at your math, and you legitimately account for DDR, and very clearly show that DDR is the linchpin to what makes defense better than resistance. If you don't have DDR, defense crumbles very quickly. Your math only supports that 40% defense at +4 outperforms the 75% resistance cap when you have DDR to back it up.

Which is entirely my point. Defense is already balanced around DDR.

[Galaxy Brain]

11 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

  

Well in that case, in order for us to balance really hard new level 50 TFs, we need to look at how purple/orange/red/yellow inspirations function at 50.

 

One approach would be reducing their strength. Another could be to stop them stacking.

 

Considering all the tools we have available to us at level 50. It doesn't make sense that purple/orange/red/yellow inspirations are as powerful as they are. Level 1-50 they work fine. (And should be kept that way for 1-50.) But at 50 they are ridiculous. Case in point: I basically have infinite money in this game - why would I ever build for defense when I can buy a 50% defense inspiration for 1 million? Why slot for damage when I can just put myself at the damage cap?

 

That said, I think green/blue/break frees/rez insps are all fine. And I think being able to email yourself insps is fine. (Lots of casual players do this with rez inspirations. Wouldn't want to take this away from them.)

 

This is something I agree on and was what I highlighted in my earlier post. HC does have different levels of access to things from the live game that drastically alters how we play.

 

Making it so inspirations do not stack, at least numerically (maybe chewing a ton increases the duration) and follows a "bigger is better" approach could be interesting (bigger insps replace the smaller value?) though that would be a drastic change to how they work... at least it'd be much easier to account for.

 

Other things like access to literal P2W stuff I feel should not be part of balance discussions as those are legit "lol I win" things.

[arcane]

Yeah, the implication that anything coming out of some gal named “Pay2Win Vendor” has any place in a balance discussion seems pretty plainly ironic and silly.

[Hew]

30 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Other things like access to literal P2W stuff I feel should not be part of balance discussions as those are legit "lol I win" things.

Except the vast majority of that content (xp boosters aside) does nothing to empower you, except the 3 very expensive buffs, and you can get that from a base empowerment station... Most if it is travels, prestige attacks, etc etc.

[arcane]

6 minutes ago, Hew said:

Except the vast majority of that content (xp boosters aside) does nothing to empower you, except the 3 very expensive buffs, and you can get that from a base empowerment station... Most if it is travels, prestige attacks, etc etc.

We could totally delete amplifiers and I’ll have nothing to say but good riddance.

[Galaxy Brain]

4 minutes ago, Hew said:

Except the vast majority of that content (xp boosters aside) does nothing to empower you, except the 3 very expensive buffs, and you can get that from a base empowerment station... Most if it is travels, prestige attacks, etc etc.

 

Those buffs, whether from P2W or from a Base I would draw a line at for sure. Same with Temp Powers from missions tbh tho only a few are "good".

 

Incarnates and IO's are the next thing below that line, as are technically inspirations as the "Optional stuff, but you get them naturally" tier as you do not technically have to go out of your way to get them.

 

The baseline tier would be dropped enhancements (SO's) / store bought... tho that technically applies to Insps as well

[Arbegla]

9 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Those buffs, whether from P2W or from a Base I would draw a line at for sure. Same with Temp Powers from missions tbh tho only a few are "good".

 

Incarnates and IO's are the next thing below that line, as are technically inspirations as the "Optional stuff, but you get them naturally" tier as you do not technically have to go out of your way to get them.

 

The baseline tier would be dropped enhancements (SO's) / store bought... tho that technically applies to Insps as well

 

Well, T3 and T4 inspirations can't be bought with inf (only merits I think) so they aren't as readily available. SOs and T1 (and I think T2? maybe.. in the shadow shard?) inspirations can be purchased with inf.

[Replacement]

21 minutes ago, arcane said:

We could totally delete amplifiers and I’ll have nothing to say but good riddance.

I wouldn't be opposed to making them free but self-delete at level 20.

 

...Or make them only apply if you don't slot IOs. Well shit, now I'm going to spend the next hour theorizing on the impact of a dumb idea.

[Arbegla]

28 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I wouldn't be opposed to making them free but self-delete at level 20.

 

...Or make them only apply if you don't slot IOs. Well shit, now I'm going to spend the next hour theorizing on the impact of a dumb idea.

 

I like the amplifiers self-delete at level 20, like the DFB or DiB temp powers. They are good for lowbies, to get the hang of the game, but not really required once you hit a certain level.

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Yeah, the implication that anything coming out of some gal named “Pay2Win Vendor” has any place in a balance discussion seems pretty plainly ironic and silly.

If it were up to me, the P2W vendor literally wouldn't exist (and neither would the T4V).

However, I long ago accepted I have no place running a game or almost any other commercial enterprise.