"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

 

I would be fine with that.  Just don't be surprised should doing so raise a holy ruckus from the "game is too easy, need to nerf everyone" crowd.

Why would the "game is too easy crowd" oppose buffing the council.

 

Seems backwards.

[Haijinx]

49 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

at end game level there should be no more training wheel mobs

Especially at max difficulty settings.

[ScarySai]

I don't think it's a ridiculous request to buff the council to at least reflect their lower level variants.

 

I think shapeshifting, robots and dark vampiri making a return would spice things up a bit. They'd still get rolled by most builds, but it'd be more fun.

 

Also, the rocket launching bosses need a bug fix. They REFUSE to drop the rocket launcher and kick you in the face. Fifth column bosses don't have that problem, for some reason. They'll gladly go crouching tiger on your ass if you get too close.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

Just don't be surprised should doing so raise a holy ruckus from the "game is too easy, need to nerf everyone" crowd.

Nowadays, its so easy to foretell the future that anyone can do it.

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

at end game level there should be no more training wheel mobs

I don't consider newspaper missions/radio missions to be end game. Especially since they grant 0 end game level rewards (incarnete nor merits).

 

Newspaper/radio missions are meant to be quick throwaway missions of no consequence. It's fine if teams breeze through those.

 

Though if they want to buff council IN TFs/SFs/Trials, sure.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, golstat2003 said:

I don't consider newspaper missions/radio missions to be end game. Especially since they grant 0 end game level rewards (incarnete nor merits).

 

Newspaper/radio missions are meant to be quick throwaway missions of no consequence. It's fine if teams breeze through those.

 

Though if they want to buff council IN TFs/SFs/Trials, sure.

I guess I should rephrase and say at end-level, not so much end-game. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

42 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I don't consider newspaper missions/radio missions to be end game. Especially since they grant 0 end game level rewards (incarnete nor merits).

False. They provide threads like every other bit of content in the game when you're lvl 50. Threads are incarnate lvl rewards. You can, technically, T4 a lvl 50 by doing nothing but farming Council. Granted, that'd be an incredibly inefficient and downright stupid way to do it... but ya could.

[Galaxy Brain]

11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Granted, that'd be an incredibly inefficient and downright stupid way to do it... but ya could.

I do think this sentence could be highlighted a bit more, as what some people have been pointing out is that changing balance would just shift targets on the next best risk/reward thing.... Well, until Fire Farms are nuked from orbit I think any concern about that is out the window when it comes to "normal" content. 

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I do think this sentence could be highlighted a bit more, as what some people have been pointing out is that changing balance would just shift targets on the next best risk/reward thing.... Well, until Fire Farms are nuked from orbit I think any concern about that is out the window when it comes to "normal" content.

I've got 10 fully T4ed characters and another 20 in some state between T1 and T4. Did the runners of the super secret server overdo it a bit? Probably not for the population they had but for homecoming now? Yea, probably. Would I want it changed? Nope. I completely hated the forced to team/forced to itrial garbage that was on live for incarnate progress. Even the mediocre changes they made for soloists were complete garbage.

 

But now we're in the zone of least effort to godhood. And yet buffs, (I'm looking at you tanker buffs,) are still incoming making the ridiculousness of easy mode slip right the hell into the absolutely absurd.

 

But you're completely correct. Make any change, the playerbase will shift to the highest reward/least resistance mode because that's how humans are geared. We're a lazy and short-sighted species.

[Galaxy Brain]

10 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

But you're completely correct. Make any change, the playerbase will shift to the highest reward/least resistance mode because that's how humans are geared. We're a lazy and short-sighted species.

Indeed, though from my point of view we already have the god-tier of that with Fire Farms if you are looking for pure Input for Output ratio. 

 

Everything else is below that by just about every metric aside from you know.... actually playing the game. As long as those farms exist, I'm kind of in the camp of "everything else is fair".

[Bill Z Bubba]

14 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Indeed, though from my point of view we already have the god-tier of that with Fire Farms if you are looking for pure Input for Output ratio. 

 

Everything else is below that by just about every metric aside from you know.... actually playing the game. As long as those farms exist, I'm kind of in the camp of "everything else is fair".

I can grok that. Sadly, since HC, I've joined the camp of "why bother leveling the old way when I can get a new alt to 50 in 2 hours?"

[Arbegla]

23 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I can grok that. Sadly, since HC, I've joined the camp of "why bother leveling the old way when I can get a new alt to 50 in 2 hours?"

For the story?

 

Though, you've probably ran every story arc possible multiple times over.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

For the story?

 

Though, you've probably ran every story arc possible multiple times over.

Yea... I been around. 🙂

[Infinitum]

9 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

For the story?

 

Though, you've probably ran every story arc possible multiple times over.

This, but I still do it at least once a year

[KauaiJim]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I've got 10 fully T4ed characters and another 20 in some state between T1 and T4. Did the runners of the super secret server overdo it a bit? Probably not for the population they had but for homecoming now? Yea, probably. Would I want it changed? Nope. I completely hated the forced to team/forced to itrial garbage that was on live for incarnate progress......

 

But you're completely correct. Make any change, the playerbase will shift to the highest reward/least resistance mode because that's how humans are geared. We're a lazy and short-sighted species.

I agree with this sentiment.  Pretty much the horses are so far out of the barn at this point it would cause mass hysteria to go the 'nerf' route.  Thankfully we do have the options to play the game in a way that give each of us just the right combination of challenge and entertainment.

 

I for one very much agree with Bill.  In my case, I've been playing MMO's hardcore since 1999 when my brother introduced me to EQ.  I've spent of thousands of dollars on having multiple maxed out characters and tons of alts in almost every big name MMO.  Many of them I was involved in closed beta and several more open beta.  Almost every one of these games went through a pattern of easy/fun pre-launch followed by the first few months of tweaks to adjust the game once it rolls out.  These tweaks often become massive nerfs because they had a vision but once the game is rolled out the community does what they always do - cry for nerfs and balance.  For some damn reason I have never been able to fathom, no one has ever made an MMO that could decide which of the many playstyles and crowds they want or heaven forbid actually design a system that allows for balance and variety.  

 

So basically where I'm going with this is, I've been through all the nerf/balance/challenge vs. reward cycle/arguments so many times in so many games I really just like to be able to log in and play and have fun doing what ever I like do do in this game at an easy level.  I was in my early thirties when I started MMO's and I've been playing computer games since the Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 1 with a cassette tape drive.  The game was all text in green numbers and letters on a black screen, called Santa Paravia.  1978. 

 

I'm much older now.  I'm in a differnt place in my life.  I've done hundreeds of hours in games grouping, duoing, raiding and soloing.  I've created and run small medium and large guilds in multiple games.  I've done PVP hardcore in some games.  I've paid for and run Ventrilo, TeamSpeak and Mumble servers.  

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've been with CoX since the very beginning too like many of you (as were several of my friends and coworkers).  Like many of us, I've spent a good part of my life playing these games.  I have had plenty of challenge forced upon me over the years and while I've had a blast it's also a bit of 'been there done that' for me.  I'm at a place in my life now where I want to relax when I hop online.  I'm getting plenty of challenge and stress in real life.  I love that this game has been brought back and even more I really enjoy its current state.  I'm getting to do things in this game that I never tried out before.  Very fun for me.

 

That said, I completely understand what people are saying from the other side of this too.  It is fairly simple to get to uber mode currently.  IO's have a lot to do with that (along with incarnates and P2W).  I really like the idea of addressing challenging or new content, but I am concerned about some of the inevitable dissatisfaction and griping that has been popping up lately and hope this community (which is one of the best MMO communities I've ever seen BTW - thanks!) doesn't get caught up in it too much.  We have something quite unique here.  Because this game is unofficial we as a community can ask this incredible dev team for all our dreams and wishes.  I just would like to ask that some of you consider there are folks like me out there too.  More optional ways to play = better IMHO.

 

We also have to remember the (one in a million) circumstances that brought about our being able to play this game again at all.  I see people pop into these forums and comment in a way that makes me think not everyone realizes this is not an official MMO being run for money/marketing/corporate profits.  This is an unsanctioned server with what we all hope will remain to be available to us for years to come. 

 

Clearly this dev team understands more options and playstyles.  They have given it to us.  I'm sure there can be more.  Just at this point in my MMO career I think I'm really getting A LOT out of the crazy fun and flexibility of the game in its current state.

 

To the original point of this topic, yes IO's can be taken advantage of.  Can they be re-"balanced" for the current game?  Sure.  Should they?  Sounds pretty hazardous to me.  It could easily 'ruin' the fun that others are having.  I for one don't want to have to "re-balance" most of the wonderful characters I've rolled on Homecoming.  And that's exactly what I and everyone else would do.  We would just find the next best thing and all go with that.  Sounds like fun!  I could be wrong but I think it's a bit late to go that route without disaster.  But I completely understand the point being made and personally think the best route at this point is to ADD options not take them away.  I love my super heroes now.  WAY more than live.  I loved this game live but it was a slog.  I pretty much agree with most others that Jack Emmert and his vision for this game was just... wrong.  I am loving easy mode right now after twenty-two years of whack-a-mole nerfs and rebalance passes.  I love that this dev team has chosen to concentrate on tons of QoL fixes and just plain FUN!

 

Next lets discuss balancing ovens with campfires.  Ovens are way too easy.  Where's the challenge?  😁

1... 2... 3... Attack!  🤪

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by KauaiJim
I spotted a misspelling and my OCD wouldn't let me le it be! lol

[ivanhedgehog]

14 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Council missions are too easy even for teams of people with only SOs

 

the Council needs some buffing 

you know you dont have to fight them. or is the point to change other peoples experiences instead of your own?

 

[golstat2003]

7 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

False. They provide threads like every other bit of content in the game when you're lvl 50. Threads are incarnate lvl rewards. You can, technically, T4 a lvl 50 by doing nothing but farming Council. Granted, that'd be an incredibly inefficient and downright stupid way to do it... but ya could.

I  . . . don't consider using threads to T4 for the very reason you stated. Also there is an inf cost with that. LOL

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, Infinitum said:

This, but I still do it at least once a year

I think I've done it to death enough that when I go back to do lower level content once a year I find myself easily noting what  the next mission in the chains will be. I was actually recently able to do this with 8 contacts back to back. At that point I just decided I'm . ..  just no longer interested in lower level content.

 

But others can have at it if they still enjoy it.

 

Rather than spending time needlessly revamping large parts of the game cause folks like to steam roll newspaper/radios perhaps they could spend time revamping lower level content and modernizing some things. I don't know. . .  just seems like a better use of time to me.

[twozerofoxtrot]

7 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And yet buffs, (I'm looking at you tanker buffs,) are still incoming making the ridiculousness of easy mode slip right the hell into the absolutely absurd.

Let's be clear, Tanker buffs didn't make the game easier, it just gave people a reason to player Tankers again. At best it put them on parity with Brutes.

 

Let's not confuse fixing badly eclipsed AT designs with flattening the overall difficulty. People simply chose not to play tankers before, and tanker numbers are still relatively low. There's a reason why "Tanker Tuesday" remains a meme. If you had "Scrapper Saturday" people would wonder what the point is.

[Bill Z Bubba]

32 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Let's be clear, Tanker buffs didn't make the game easier, it just gave people a reason to player Tankers again. At best it put them on parity with Brutes.

 

Let's not confuse fixing badly eclipsed AT designs with flattening the overall difficulty. People simply chose not to play tankers before, and tanker numbers are still relatively low. There's a reason why "Tanker Tuesday" remains a meme. If you had "Scrapper Saturday" people would wonder what the point is.

Before it was a tradeoff, go brute for damage or tank for mitigation. Now, tank damage is so close to brute damage that there's little reason to go brute. Especially for those of us that solo a lot. The devs could have chosen to fix the design issue by lowering brute mitigation caps and left tank damage alone. Instead, I suspect at least, someone in the camp of "tanks should be superman" chose the damage route. So while it may take my tanks 30 seconds longer than my brutes to take down a pylon, the heightened size and enemy cap on aoes shoots them right on past brutes in overall performance.

I'd be ok with archetype parity but it doesn't exist. In this case, they simply swapped which AT gets eclipsed.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[twozerofoxtrot]

I certainly do disagree with that. I don't personally observe brute numbers eclipsing tanker numbers in groups (sadly statistics are skewed by farming brutes, though that may lend to my point as well). I understand that's not comprehensive, but it feeds into my perspective.

 

There are valid positions (which I don't share) that tankers took a nerf in the changes due to the removal of Bruising and how that affects overall times on AV kills. There is also the good work done on making Proc Monster builds for tankers that bury Brute damage. But that isn't how most people are playing the AT: At max level, with a cookie cutter build, versus a pylon. 

 

For the record, my two "mains" are an Inv/SS Tanker and a SS/WP Brute. I solo a lot; it's probably 90% of my play. It's obvious to me, without even digging into the numbers, my Brute is still clearing +4/8s far and away faster than my tanker. 

 

 

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

20 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

But that isn't how most people are playing the AT: At max level, with a cookie cutter build, versus a pylon. 

Guess since I don't utilize proc monster builds, I don't go the cookie cutter route.

 

End the end, there's a lot of us that do enjoy soloing AVs and know that even single target damage was buffed with the changes. Those thinking otherwise are mistaken.

 

I've got claws and sr on a scrapper, a brute and a tank. Scrapper wins, of course, on kill speed, but the tank beats the brute. Not by much, granted, but it's there. Same attack chains for the brute and tank. Edit: And I'm talking about rerunning a clearall AE mish with standard opponents at max diff for testing purposes.

 

And ya know, I don't have an em/shield brute identically built to the shield/em tank I used for that Werner rules ITF, but I suspect that due to the brute's lower mitigation, it ain't gettin through that alive.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[summers]

39 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Before it was a tradeoff, go brute for damage or tank for mitigation. Now, tank damage is so close to brute damage that there's little reason to go brute. Especially for those of us that solo a lot. The devs could have chosen to fix the design issue by lowering brute mitigation caps and left tank damage alone. Instead, I suspect at least, someone in the camp of "tanks should be superman" chose the damage route. So while it may take my tanks 30 seconds longer than my brutes to take down a pylon, the heightened size and enemy cap on aoes shoots them right on past brutes in overall performance.

I'd be ok with archetype parity but it doesn't exist. In this case, they simply swapped which AT gets eclipsed.

The only reason I like to play Brutes is so they exemplar down. I feel at 50 Tankers are strictly better, and HC went too far.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, summers said:

The only reason I like to play Brutes is so they exemplar down. I feel at 50 Tankers are strictly better, and HC went too far.

And that's a great reason. On the ride from 1-50, brutes are far more fun just thanks to fury alone.

[twozerofoxtrot]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Not by much, granted, but it's there.

That sounds about as close to parity as you get in a game.

 

Either way, if the scrapper is beating both, my original point stands. Tanker buffs didn't make the game any easier, it just adjusted the frequency of play between competing ATs.