The Warriors are boring - is that a problem?

[Nerio72]

Just go for it and have the mobs come rushing toward us snapping fingers, cause that's all I see anyways!

[Rishidian]

Warriors are boring.  No matter their background, reason for existence, movie rights, or whatever.  Still boring.

 

I see part of the problem is they haven't evolved with the game.  As it has become easier to start hero life, they have fallen into irrelevance. 

With the muddling of the Origins, their uniqueness has become mundane.

 

Yes, they are boring and need to evolve to become worthwhile again.

----------------

Or, who cares.

[Sakura Tenshi]

@Rishidian

Now now, I don't think that's wholly accurate. They weren't really too interesting to begin with because they lacked a great deal of plot relevance to begin with. In that respect, that's why the whole 'They're a reference to a 1970s film, you can't change that!' argument is honestly awful. The Warriors blandness is partially because they existed purely as a referential joke on part of the live developers. It'd be like if I made a super hero game and made a mid level mob based off early 2010s 4chan, spouting memes as old as '08 and existing as a cheap mortar between other, more relevant groups like the Tsoo, Family, Trolls, Skulls, Hellions, CoT, and so on.

 

Now, that all being said, while I know Piecemeal is in the works on something, I'll just post my own thoughts on how I'd revamp the Warriors. Yes, they'd ultimately remain a quirky, street gang with an archaic theme. I'd just have them get a little less 'street gangy' as their ranks progress. Now this also is a pie-in-the-sky revamp idea as it would require new assets including animations and powers and such. So, don't old your breath.

• Warriors remain a Greek themed group, and part of that is they now have spear users in their ranks: the Hoplite.
• The minion tiers don't look much different than the Warriors we know now. Updated models, yes. More appropriate weapon customization that match Greek themes? Yes. But the minions pretty much stay the same with one exception: they ow have the phalanx fighting passive. They're taught to fight as a unit and watch eachother's backs, and this is how it shows.
• At the Lt. ranks, big changes come up, they start wielding elementally attuned weapons with fire, cold, and energy taking up a bit of the weapon's damage typing. These three elements appear in all four weapon types of the Warriors. Also at this point, Slashers and Hoplites begin to pair their weapons with shields. (using a proper Hoplon model). All Warriors also add on some appropriate Classical style greaves to their armor. Of course it would have to obviously look like they're still just slapping it over their street clothes.
• Now at the boss ranks, we have some changes with smashers and Hewers who being to instead use two-handed axes and maces, possibly with some one-handed animations thrown in. Hewer and smashes also have donned Corinthian helmets and the molded muscle breastplates to fully armor themselves out. In contrast, the Slashers and Hoplites, wear Chalcidian helms and going topless (possibly with a red over-the-shoulder cape) relying primarily on their shield for protection. Powers wise, the hoplites and slashers also grant the benefit of Grant Cover to their teammates. EDIT: Hewer and Crusher bosses, being the 'heavy hitters' could all have Assault as a power, buffing their allies with more damage and increasing their own.
• Throughout all this, the Warriors also ditch their usual archery for javelins like the Cimerorans.
• New member of their mob is a unique take on the sniper enemy class: the Crypteia. Based off the secret police of the Spartans, the Crypteia would basically use Redcap dagger attacks and rely on stealth, increased movement speed, and perception to close the gap on heroes. They'd be rare spawns out in the world and have sapper mob rarity in missions. They hit hard, but are lightly protected. Possibly could give them a 'rush' teleport power like savage leap, which can ironically mitigate their own effectiveness by meaning they'll leave their own allies behind making it easier to kill them.
• Edit: An additional possible member, and maybe giving two 'snipers' to the Warriors would be a formal Sagittarius. A dedicated archer in the group focusing on picking heroes (and villains) off from a distance. I suggest them as a sniper seeing as archers actually were not necessarily common Greek soldiers, they more commonly used javelins and slings (and while I was tempted to suggest them getting a 'sling shot' power, I felt that was going a little too far one way or the other. Either top heroes get taken down by balls of lead and rocks flung at them at sub sonic speeds or the warriors are such over zealous LARPers they'll use and pretty useless weapon to show their commitment to a gig, it'd be like Joker sooner letting himself be caught by batman than drive anything but a clown car)

Edited March 12, 2021 by Sakura Tenshi
though of some things

[Replacement]

On 3/10/2021 at 5:52 PM, Jaguaratron said:

 

The Warriors attire and design was a tongue in cheek homage to the 1979 film "The Warriors", it would be a real shame for this genuinely developer chosen aesthetic to be turned into generic outlandish "superhero" fare, not everything is tights and spandex, you dont seem to know where their "theme" is from.

 

Im all for expansion, Im all for updating but I believe it should be updating existing models and textures as opposed to hotch potching various costume items onto pre existing factions, you have the keys, build your own legacy over butchering others.

It's more accurate to say Talos Island's Warriors are based on the movie. 

 

Warrior Earth exists and shows us an endpoint to their evolution.

 

Ideally, they would evolve for higher level new arcs, while still retaining some of their costume flair. That's not destroying anyone else' artistic integrity.

[Piecemeal]

It's uncanny how many times people suggest things I've already started to do, before I announce them 😄

 

Some of the ideas pitched in here were already being concepted out and played with. Other ideas, so much better 😄

[Sakura Tenshi]

@Piecemeal
Kind of sad I know almost none of my own ideas could happen since they're require new assets. But I think in general you're able to start working on these things because they're common and old issues people have. I remember folks back on live complaining about the Warriors as just plain stupid.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Fundraising might be iffy, at best.  Probably outside the scope of risk that the team would feel comfortable with, based on past comments.

Similarly, and frustratingly, the option of purchasing third-party assets from online stores (which may or may not have been created by certain people), seems to run in to a wall with the "develop internally" non-spoken policy that seems to be in effect.

 

There are a lot of untapped avenues which are very unlikely to ever be utilized.

[Doc_Scorpion]

6 hours ago, RMS33 said:

Is it legally possible for Homecoming to do fundraisers for specific enhancement projects like this? 

Yes, probably, maybe, no.  But looking at the monthly expense sheets, they're not paying salaries - so what would you be fundraising for?

[DougGraves]

1 hour ago, RMS33 said:

Specific projects that are otherwise on the agenda or proposed by players. Such as a power set, enemy group, TF or costume set.

 

 

No one can be paid to work on CoH or else they are making money off of it.  Making money off of someone else's IP is clearly a violation.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Indeed, @DougGraves . . . although, what about the company providing the servers, the company providing the forum software, the lawyer(s), et cetera?

There are clearly some "acceptable risks" in this situation in terms of people making money from the operation/existence of these game servers, even if it's not the people who are operating and developing Homecoming directly.

So, I wonder where those lines are drawn, exactly.  If Homecoming LLC is willing to provide money collected through donation to entities that -are- for-profit, then other than the determination to work on development "in house," do we have any other barriers preventing Homecoming from purchasing premade code, visual, and audio assets from the many, many resources that already exist?

 

Given how little Homecoming has shared about operational policies, I'm not sure we'll get thorough answers to these more pointed questions any time soon.

 

For now, we can thank the volunteers for volunteering their time and effort . . . but it would be nice if we could provide them some helpful reimbursement for that time and effort as well.  Goodness knows the industry NEEDS a better, more ethical model for paying developers for their work right now . . . 

 

 

EDIT:

Also, WHOA!  Way off the original topic.

 

Um . . .

 

Ummm . . . 

 

er, uh, the Warriors!  Right.  The Warriors!

 

They're not boring!

But I'm not against Piecemeal or anyone else expanding them a little (or a lot).  Just so long as the original canon and content is preserved in a meaningful way.  BETTER than the Circle of Thorns and Rikti "updates."  

Granted, the Rikti Update was largely superior, but I do miss some of the old Rikti aesthetic.  Would have been nice to have naked Rikti and the old Rikti armour still showing up in a few places here and there.   Circle update was mostly BLAH to me.  Made them much too cartoonish and garish, compared to the more sinister and decrepit look they used to have.

 

So . . . please bear that in mind when working on the Warriors!

Their current aesthetic is very plain and limited.  

But I believe it's better to EXPAND on it, rather than re-envision them wholesale.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by TemporalVileTerror
Forgot what the topic actually was. Also, originally typed "decrypted" instead of "decrepit." Ha ha! Punny.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Actually, one more slight aside . . . 

@Piecemeal?  If that's not too invasive of me to ask this question:  Which set of pronouns would be appropriate to refer to you?  It's just that I've seen various folks in the community use different ones, and I'd like to ensure we're addressing you in a respectful and acceptable way.

[Piecemeal]

1 hour ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Actually, one more slight aside . . . 

@Piecemeal?  If that's not too invasive of me to ask this question:  Which set of pronouns would be appropriate to refer to you?  It's just that I've seen various folks in the community use different ones, and I'd like to ensure we're addressing you in a respectful and acceptable way.

You may refer to me as Janet.

 

#thegoodplace

[DougGraves]

1 hour ago, Piecemeal said:

You may refer to me as Janet.

 

what the fork?

[Hew]

7 hours ago, DougGraves said:

 

what the fork?

I'm Derek.

[gamingglen]

9 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

You may refer to me as Janet.

 

#thegoodplace

 

not "dammit Janet"?

 

That could be one of their favorite movies, theatre management hate it when they come to watch (either a massive cleanup or a massive rebuild).

[Hew]

56 minutes ago, gamingglen said:

 

not "dammit Janet"?

 

That could be one of their favorite movies, theatre management hate it when they come to watch (either a massive cleanup or a massive rebuild).

Rocky Horror Picture Show!

 

TOAST!!

 

[BurtHutt]

Well, I think most factions would seem kinda boring these days. We've had the same ones for years and a lot of the people playing are die-hard CoH lovers so they'd have a touch more of the 'I'm bored with _______ faction'.

 

I was hoping the new Dev team would add all new factions and signature characters. New GMs to battle and so on. 

[Piecemeal]

2 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

Well, I think most factions would seem kinda boring these days. We've had the same ones for years and a lot of the people playing are die-hard CoH lovers so they'd have a touch more of the 'I'm bored with _______ faction'.

 

I was hoping the new Dev team would add all new factions and signature characters. New GMs to battle and so on. 

 

Don't think that's not a possibility! 

[Bionic_Flea]

1 minute ago, Piecemeal said:

 

Don't think that's not a possibility! 

 . . . Yet! . . .

[MTeague]

3 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

Well, I think most factions would seem kinda boring these days. We've had the same ones for years and a lot of the people playing are die-hard CoH lovers so they'd have a touch more of the 'I'm bored with _______ faction'.

 

I was hoping the new Dev team would add all new factions and signature characters. New GMs to battle and so on. 

 

Honestly I'm still hoping for Praetorian Wu Yin to move in with the Syndicate, and take over a big chunk of terrain, perhaps co-opting portions of the Primal Tsoo and Primal Family. 

Probably won't happen. But they're a faction I definitely miss from Praetoria.  Well connected Psychic Gangsters / Big Money, building up to levels of infrastructure to rival Crey.

[BurtHutt]

1 hour ago, Piecemeal said:

 

Don't think that's not a possibility! 

Happy to hear this! I feel the game needs some different looks and so on. 

 

It might also help if Devs could make the main boss in various missions a bit more noticeable. I don't know how many times we steamrolled through a mish and defeated the main boss without even seeing him/her/it. They are in a mob and often look exactly like the rest of the mob. This is appropriate in some missions, I guess, but how about making them stand out and/or away from a mob.

[Grouchybeast]

20 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

So, I wonder where those lines are drawn, exactly.  If Homecoming LLC is willing to provide money collected through donation to entities that -are- for-profit, then other than the determination to work on development "in house," do we have any other barriers preventing Homecoming from purchasing premade code, visual, and audio assets from the many, many resources that already exist?

 

As long as HC are still hoping to be able to do a deal with NCSoft, I can't see them adding any assets to the game unless they have the power to transfer 100% of the ownership of those assets to NCSoft.

[TemporalVileTerror]

That's a very grim prospect . . . 

[Piecemeal]

In regard to the whole "How do I address you?" question:

 

I'm going to be as delicate and straight-forward with this as I can. And keep in mind, I'm an ally, so I'll always try my best to respect your position and what you tell me you are. But for me?

 

I'm just me. I actually don't mind what pronouns you choose for me. I can happily exist in whatever identity you need me to be. I don't see the world through a pronoun-focused lens, and I don't expect people to subscribe to whatever I consider myself to be mentally or physically. I've always naively seen the world in the best light - we're all just people with limitless potential trying to find our purpose and value in life. I've got who I am and what I liked worked out and locked down, I just never bring it into what I'm doing - it's personal and on this platform, irrelevant to an extent.

 

I rather enjoyed the character of Janet on The Good Place for her all-encompassing knowledge of the universe, and her charming innocence in being limited to human scope of interaction. So consider me a Conduit, an Operator, another program in the system. I'm here for you!

 

 

With that said, there's been a LOT of really good information submitted here and elsewhere. Hopefully in a few weeks I'll have another followup.

 

I love the idea of the Wharf Rats, the weapons, the costumes. I'm working on a LOT of things in these coming patches, a lot of which is subtle and outside of the story arcs. (LFG whatwhat)

I may create another Developer Discussion thread with the ideas pushed forth by you all and some teaser pictures. I hope it doesn't disappoint!

[TemporalVileTerror]

Someone just pointed this out on the Everlasting General Chat:

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Words_of_the_Warrior_Badge

 

Just wanted to make sure it's on your radar, @Piecemeal.