Brutes vs Blasters? No, really....

[macskull]

47 minutes ago, iBot said:

I don't dispute any points there other than to say making fights last longer is the ultimate goal.  I think "difficult" is probably the wrong word to use because it is highly subjective.  It might be as simple as an across the board increase of mob HP and/or resists or some combination there in.

Making fights take longer isn't the same as making them more difficult. One is an actual challenge and the other is a waste of time. The game already offers plenty of options to make things harder going for crazy-well-built characters (at least on TFs/flashbacks) but the vast majority of players ignore those options. Why? Because they don't offer any incentive for using them aside from bragging rights and possibly some badges. It's the same thing as raising enemy levels - it isn't really any more difficult and you get less reward for the same time spent. Why would anyone who's chasing rewards use any of those options if they get nothing for it?

[iBot]

12 minutes ago, macskull said:

Making fights take longer isn't the same as making them more difficult. One is an actual challenge and the other is a waste of time. The game already offers plenty of options to make things harder going for crazy-well-built characters (at least on TFs/flashbacks) but the vast majority of players ignore those options. Why? Because they don't offer any incentive for using them aside from bragging rights and possibly some badges. It's the same thing as raising enemy levels - it isn't really any more difficult and you get less reward for the same time spent. Why would anyone who's chasing rewards use any of those options if they get nothing for it?

I understand your points and do not disagree with you.  However, now we are talking about two different goals.  I'm all for raising the rewards when the players take on more challenge.  Personally I think merits should scale with mob level so a TF/mission arc run at +4 gets more merits then one run at 0.  Same goes for those options when creating the TF/flashback to buff enemies or debuff players.  Those should have increased rewards since the players took on greater risk.  However I'm not chasing rewards, I'm chasing longer fights.  You see longer fights as a waste of time which is certainly valid.  And I do love a good steamroll run once in a while.  But to have some option to have more engagement during each spawn is my desire here.  Any thing that I'd like to see implement must be optional so that teams can make the choices themselves.

[Mezmera]

28 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Since Victory days I have consistently argued against melee unfriendly, generic MMO mechanics like the Battle Maiden fight in Apex.   This sort of thing makes too many demands on your attention, especially when players also are leaving behind glows and funks on the floor, and you have to pay attention to that specific one out of the whole lightshow. 

I actually like the Battle Maiden mechanic.  We already have a plethora of the standard boring usual fights in this game that this one feels fresh and it's still just a drop of different in the ocean of what is the norm to play.  Everybody likes their run of task forces but why does harder have to equate to giving the AV more hp like Reichsman and you just dogpile on top for 10x as long.  I wouldn't want more new content skewed all one way, I prefer balance, but if we were looking for better balance we would need to see more fresh mechanics like what you see in the Apex task force than the usual Khan type task forces.  

 

Same ol', same ol' still far outpaces "fresh" in this game so melee is quite well off and will be.  

Edited February 24, 2021 by Mezmera

[Apparition]

Speaking of Battle Maiden, I recently learned that she casts a mag 1000 immobilization power on herself so she can’t be pulled out of a blue patch.  I find that amusing.

[macskull]

24 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

I actually like the Battle Maiden mechanic.  We already have a plethora of the standard boring usual fights in this game that this one feels fresh and it's still just a drop of different in the ocean of what is the norm to play.  Everybody likes their run of task forces but why does harder have to equate to giving the AV more hp like Reichsman and you just dogpile on top for 10x as long.  I wouldn't want more new content skewed all one way, I prefer balance, but if we were looking for better balance we would need to see more fresh mechanics like what you see in the Apex task force than the usual Khan type task forces.  

 

Same ol', same ol' still far outpaces "fresh" in this game so melee is quite well off and will be.  

In 99% of this game's content melee is functionally immortal and can just roll their face on the keyboard and still be successful. Having 1% where they have to put a bit of thought into it isn't a bad thing.

[SuperPlyx]

9 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Speaking of Battle Maiden, I recently learned that she casts a mag 1000 immobilization power on herself so she can’t be pulled out of a blue patch.  I find that amusing.

That's interesting you can taunt her out of the blue, I have done it on a brute and a tank.

[macskull]

I don't think that's a power BM casts on herself, from what I can find in CoD it's related to a portal of some sort.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

I don't think that's a power BM casts on herself, from what I can find in CoD it's related to a portal of some sort.

I wonder if it's when she phases out of the battle?

[Shred Monkey]

4 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

No thank you.  I like being able to play with seven friends simultaneously.  One of the reasons why I play CoH over other online games that limit team sizes to five, or (even worse), three.

I don't really think they should nerf team size.... My use of #NerfTeamSize is a snarky way to point out that a whole lot of the complaints made in these threads go away if you play on 3-5 man teams... which of course is a very real option to us all.

[siolfir]

1 minute ago, Shred Monkey said:

I don't really think they should nerf team size.... My use of #NerfTeamSize is a snarky way to point out that a whole lot of the complaints made in these threads go away if you play on 3-5 man teams... which of course is a very real option to us all.

As are the artificial challenges like the issue 0 hero or issue 7 villain character groups, and a lot of people are finding the game more enjoyable that way. After all, even playing solo or in duos most of the content is easy for an incarnate-level, fully-IO'd character.

[Snarky]

50 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

 is a snarky way

you owe me 10 inf

[Sovera]

Maiden is not complicated to handle on a melee heavy team, but it can be shit when there are Brutes and Tankers who steal my agro and then do nothing with it.

 

The easiest way is to use the tram right behind her when she spawns. Blue circle goes down. Use tram to break line of sight. She follows after leaving the blue circle. Keep hitting. Next circle happens, move to the end of the tram breaking LoS in the process.

 

The timing of the circles matches that by the one drops the other is just about disappearing so this can be repeated until dead.

 

Anything else does not work in my experience. Using Taunt, using Envenomed Daggers. She ignores it and stays plinking at a distance without moving from the circle. That method works.

 

Except, of course, when there is another Brute or Tanker, they steal agro, and then bounce around making her ignore me to plink them.

 

 

As for the original question I dunno. Other than CC classes there is room for everyone. While in the perfect scenario everything dies I find that in practice lieutenants and bosses tend to still be alive and provide a target for meleers to deal with. I do feel the pain of Kins, so appreciated and wanted, but, in my experience, seldomly managing to get a FS off before AoEs have exploded a pack apart.

 

What people seldomly do but would make the difference between Blasters and Brutes is split up. Blasters seldomly do so. Brutes sometimes do that, but more often than not are not sturdy enough to handle it. As someone who mainly tanks I don't get to split up but if there is another Tanker aboard I will let the team go left while I go right. Blasters can do that in theory but in practice they are slower. Runners happen, no agro to glue mobs close and hoverblasting exacerbates thing, and even 45% defense is iffy on a Blaster's HP.

[Shred Monkey]

11 hours ago, Sovera said:

Maiden is not complicated to handle on a melee heavy team, but it can be shit when there are Brutes and Tankers who steal my agro and then do nothing with it.

 

The easiest way is to use the tram right behind her when she spawns. Blue circle goes down. Use tram to break line of sight. She follows after leaving the blue circle. Keep hitting. Next circle happens, move to the end of the tram breaking LoS in the process.

 

The timing of the circles matches that by the one drops the other is just about disappearing so this can be repeated until dead.

 

Anything else does not work in my experience. Using Taunt, using Envenomed Daggers. She ignores it and stays plinking at a distance without moving from the circle. That method works.

 

Except, of course, when there is another Brute or Tanker, they steal agro, and then bounce around making her ignore me to plink them.

 

This is so true.  The game mechanics aren't anti-melee for this fight.  The game mechanics show you very clearly where not to stand while give you total control of where she does stand.  People are just too lazy or too dense to use the mechanics.  

 

[Snarky]

19 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

This is so true.  The game mechanics aren't anti-melee for this fight.  The game mechanics show you very clearly where not to stand while give you total control of where she does stand.  People are just too lazy or too dense to use the mechanics.  

 

honestly i never understood any of BMs mechanics.  I just try to survive the frying pan and take a few shots.  What one of the above posters rightly desribed as "stealing agro and not doing anything with it."  

 

This whole thread has gotten me interested in reviving an old Brute from live.  it was a ss/will Brute.  Going to roll as an Energy/Will Brute incarnated for Damage.  Musculature Alpha, Assault Hybrid.  He may not be super tanky, but I am guessing it will be a ton of fun.

[Omega-202]

34 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

This is so true.  The game mechanics aren't anti-melee for this fight.  The game mechanics show you very clearly where not to stand while give you total control of where she does stand.  People are just too lazy or too dense to use the mechanics.  

 

The fact that you need to LOS pull her out of patches in order to land attacks as a melee means it is definitely more unfriendly to melee ATs than ranged ATs.  One can basically ignore a whole mechanic and keep attacking and the other needs to stop attacking and hide until shes in the open. 

 

A melee's DPS is hampered much more on that fight than a ranged attacker, to the point that I specifically make sure I take my PPP/APP attacks on my melee toons so I can keep attacking when she can't be pulled from the fire.  

[Apparition]

It doesn't help that she completely ignores taunt the vast majority of the time, and that once in a while the blue patches land with no warning.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Apparition

[Snarky]

3 minutes ago, Apparition said:

It doesn't help that she completely ignores taunt the vast majority of the time, and that once in a while the blue patches land with no warning.

i am guessing she is not "ignoring taunt"  as was pointed out above another brute or tank has already got her attention and is now jumping around while she range attacks him/her.

[Nemu]

You don't need LOS to pull her. I've pulled her out of the blue patch with my scrapper taunt aura without hiding behind LOS before. If you are tanking her and she's latched onto you in melee, there's enough time the game gives you to telegraph when the blue patch is going to spawn and you can take a few steps out of that patch as soon as the visual warning shows up, and BM usually follows. For those that complain that they don't have enough time to move because they get stuck in animation, now is the perfect time to learn to joust.

 

I have more problems with control types spamming immob for DAT CONTAINMENT DAMAGE.

 

I guess melee can't have all the stupid. gotta pass that around.

 

Except for melee blasters. Melee blasters are supa smart uh huh uh huh uh huh!

Edited February 26, 2021 by Nemu

[Apparition]

16 minutes ago, Snarky said:

i am guessing she is not "ignoring taunt"  as was pointed out above another brute or tank has already got her attention and is now jumping around while she range attacks him/her.

 

No, she just ignores it most of the time.  Even if I'm the only Brute or Tanker on the team, when she's in a blue patch I'll spam taunt and most of the time she doesn't budge.

[Nemu]

33 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

The fact that you need to LOS pull her

I've see players that play melee whose whole shtick is herding, not that I agree with that playstyle. It just amuses me to see this comment about not using game mechanic and then fulling exploiting it in other situations.

[Shred Monkey]

10 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

No, she just ignores it most of the time.  Even if I'm the only Brute or Tanker on the team, when she's in a blue patch I'll spam taunt and most of the time she doesn't budge.

Some (maybe all?) AV's ranged attacks have an enormous range.  I've seen Bobcat throw a focus around 200 yards.  It's commical because it takes a few seconds long time for the "wave" animation to hit you.  I suspect that taunt is working on BM, but she doesn't move because you're not out of range.

[Omega-202]

12 minutes ago, Nemu said:

I've see players that play melee whose whole shtick is herding, not that I agree with that playstyle. It just amuses me to see this comment about not using game mechanic and then fulling exploiting it in other situations.

I have no idea what you're trying to say.  

 

Herding can be useful if it helps maximize AoE DPS.  But needing to LOS pull a single AV in order to not get insta-dropped by the fire patches is totally a different situation.  Yes, they're similar mechanics, but in one scenario it increases efficacy of a whole team and the other scenario it is basically required in order to not be dead weight.  

[Nemu]

Perhaps then if battle maiden had 100 twins that you can group under a dumpster then you would consider using the technique? because 1 is just beneath your notice?

 

To be fair I get what you are saying. Melee is disadvantaged not only in the BM fight but for overall game content because when survival is a non-issue the flexibility to do damage from anywhere makes most ATs with ranged options much more powerful.

 

But LOS is a tool, just as breakfrees is a tool for ATs with no mez protectionl. If you want to lament that you are useless because you are not using the tools you are given then that's on you.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Nemu

[Erratic1]

29 minutes ago, Nemu said:

I've see players that play melee whose whole shtick is herding, not that I agree with that playstyle. It just amuses me to see this comment about not using game mechanic and then fulling exploiting it in other situations.

 

Because leading a bunch of enemy into a ambush is something that has never happened in history.

[Omega-202]

27 minutes ago, Nemu said:

Perhaps then if battle maiden had 100 twins that you can group under a dumpster then you would consider using the technique? because 1 is just beneath your notice?

 

To be fair I get what you are saying. Melee is disadvantaged not only in the BM fight but for overall game content because when survival is a non-issue the flexibility to do damage from anywhere makes most ATs with ranged options much more powerful.

 

But LOS is a tool, just as breakfrees is a tool for ATs with no mez protectionl. If you want to lament that you are useless because you are not using the tools you are given then that's on you.

You're completely missing the point.  

 

Melees need to use LOS on that fight whereas ranged characters don't.  I'm not lamenting anything.  I was just arguing against the point that "melees are not disadvantaged in the BM fight" that Shred Monkey was trying to argue.  They objectively are disadvantaged becauae they need to use an extra mechanic that ranged attackers don't and even when used perfectly, a melee attacker still has lower DPS because there are periods where they can't attack whole BM moves to them.  So Shred Monkey's comment was objectively incorrect.  

 

Please try to read comments in context instead of looking for an argument.