Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)

[Glacier Peak]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The +Def unique goes in Resistance powers, not Defense powers.

Good catch! @Captain Citadel, disregard my solution to your slotting concerns. I mixed up the resist and def unique IOs.

[arthurh35353]

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I’m pretty sure that is one of the intentional advantages of buffs over debuffs. Might not be fair, but I don’t think it’s an accident.

I've never heard of that before and from all the devs (old and new) they've never stated that debuffs are intentionally weaker because you have to apply them on the enemy. I would totally love all my debuff enemies to be turned into buff friends powers instead in that case.

[Captain Citadel]

7 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Again, you might not find use in moving faster during fights or between one mob to the next. That's fine...as a flying melee character you fall in to the category of the most likely to not get added benefits from the power. But at the same time...how you were using AB is no different than what you could do with EM. You'll hit the flight cap easier, not have to be OAS, and you can leave it on instead of cycling it.

EM looks really good on paper initially, but unfortunately that +19.04 mph is largely being wasted. I have two 50+5 generic +FlySpeed IOs, one in Fly and the other in Swift. Combined with Agility Radial Paragon in my Alpha slot, this is what I'm getting with Fly after EM is turned off.



Basically, the only beneficial effect I'm likely to notice from having EM on in combat is the removal of Fly suppression, but it's not very often I'm going to need to switch to Fly in a fight for a short burst and then back to Hover. Or in Page 2 terms, switch Fly on and then off again. Even with the forthcoming vastly reduced endurance cost, it doesn't really seem worth it to turn on EM at all. It does increase Hover's speed to around 58 mph, but that's so fast it's more of a hindrance in indoor maps, which is where most fights take place. Makes EM feel like a dead mule.

It's bad enough that I have Tough 6-slotted for set bonuses but will never actually turn it on because my S/L resistance is already overcapped, and it only gives S/L resist. That's why I'm strongly considering dropping EM for Maneuvers, because my build is only partially def-capped. Though that extra 3% +Def isn't pushing any specific defenses over the 45% line that are currently below it, so it's probably not worth the end drain. Sure, it's helping my team, but they probably don't care about a measly +3% defense.

On that note, I think it would be nice if EM could retain some small percentage of its +Def while in combat, but I see how that would probably be considered OP. It just doesn't feel great to have another mule power that I may as well never turn on, that's all. It's not the end of the world if I just wind up forgetting EM is even in my build once these changes go live, because it's still giving me all the same benefits that Live Afterburner does when switched off.

[CaptainLupis]

5 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

I've never heard of that before and from all the devs (old and new) they've never stated that debuffs are intentionally weaker because you have to apply them on the enemy. I would totally love all my debuff enemies to be turned into buff friends powers instead in that case.

For me the implication was that debuffs are stronger than buffs precisely because they are more dangerous to use.

[Wavicle]

Neither of you quite nailed it. What I’m saying is that debuffs are at a disadvantage because they have to be applied. Buffs have an advantage in that they are always up or you can put them up in advance.

 

That’s part of how they work. That may not be balanced, I’m not saying it is, but it’s clearly how the game works.

[dangeraaron10]

Hi devs

 

There's a lot of hoopla going on around here but after reading the patch notes for myself, just wanted to stop by and thank you guys.  The changes to Fly and Super Jump look great!  

 

I look forward to testing.  

 

Not only is Flight my favorite travel style, the improvements to it look really great.  I don't think it needs to be drastically slower than the other travel powers.  Having a version of Jump Pack rolled into Super Jump is a great addition and opens up new character ideas for me!

[CaptainLupis]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Neither of you quite nailed it. What I’m saying is that debuffs are at a disadvantage because they have to be applied. Buffs have an advantage in that they are always up or you can put them up in advance.

 

That’s part of how they work. That may not be balanced, I’m not saying it is, but it’s clearly how the game works.

I thought you were meaning that buffs had the advantage of being safer to use to counter being, for want of a better phrase, less powerful, not just making a statement. I clearly read more into it that you intended.

[Wavicle]

4 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

I thought you were meaning that buffs had the advantage of being safer to use to counter being, for want of a better phrase, less powerful, not just making a statement. I clearly read more into it that you intended.

That would make sense, but in practice I don’t know if it’s really the case. I mean, other than the new trick arrow, are debuffs generally better than buffs?

[Arbegla]

10 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

That would make sense, but in practice I don’t know if it’s really the case. I mean, other than the new trick arrow, are debuffs generally better than buffs?

 

Debuffs are typically resisted, either by the purple patch, or other things, but from a 1:1 perspective..

 

Well, -tohit and +def are mathematically the same, so those are equal. (-10% tohit is exactly the same as +10% def)

 

+rech/-rech I think do the same things just in reverse.

 

+regen/-regen and +recovery/-recovery i think also do the same things, just reverse of each other.

 

+damage/-resistance is kinda odd, as they both 'boost damage' but in fundamentally different ways.

 

Value wise, I think debuffs have the ability to be higher, but again, they are resisted more often too. Very few things actually 'resist' buffs.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Arbegla said:

 

Debuffs are typically resisted, either by the purple patch, or other things, but from a 1:1 perspective..

 

Well, -tohit and +def are mathematically the same, so those are equal. (-10% tohit is exactly the same as +10% def)

 

+rech/-rech I think do the same things just in reverse.

 

+regen/-regen and +recovery/-recovery i think also do the same things, just reverse of each other.

 

+damage/-resistance is kinda odd, as they both 'boost damage' but in fundamentally different ways.

 

Value wise, I think debuffs have the ability to be higher, but again, they are resisted more often too. Very few things actually 'resist' buffs.

Right, I get that, but I mean the numbers themselves. 

[CaptainLupis]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

That would make sense, but in practice I don’t know if it’s really the case. I mean, other than the new trick arrow, are debuffs generally better than buffs?

Individually probably not, but when it comes to stacking I'd say debuffs are significantly better than stacking buffs, which is what I believe the devs were more worried about back in the day. But this isn't really relevant to travel powers, which I admit I forgot this was, I was thinking this was the powers thread!

[siolfir]

22 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Right, I get that, but I mean the numbers themselves. 

Off-topic for this thread, so this whole section might get purged, but typically the numbers are higher for debuffs and debuffs usually use schedule A enhancements (+33% even-con SO) while buffs use schedule B (+20% even-con SO). I don't know if it was ever specifically stated instead of just assumed, but the idea was that the numbers are higher because they have to be applied and are resisted, which has already been brought up.

[Wavicle]

Just now, siolfir said:

Off-topic for this thread, so this whole section might get purged, but typically the numbers are higher for debuffs and debuffs usually use schedule A enhancements (+33% even-con SO) while buffs use schedule B (+20% even-con SO). I don't know if it was ever specifically stated instead of just assumed, but the idea was that the numbers are higher because they have to be applied and are resisted, which has already been brought up.

I don’t think to hit and defense debuffs are schedule A.

[siolfir]

15 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I don’t think to hit and defense debuffs are schedule A.

Defense Debuff is schedule A, To Hit Debuff is schedule B (I did use the word usually, to hit's an exception).

[GM Korvin]

4 hours ago, RogueWolf said:

Concealment: The new Stealth should offer a minor defense bonus IN combat like Combat Jump. Otherwise it seems redundant with Infiltration (kind of a waste just to unlock phase shift or misdirection). I see the benefit to Masterminds who never actively attack (which I'm guessing is a fairly small minority). Or as a vanity power for impatient people who just want to stealth through everything. Not so much for the rest of us.

 

Stealth still provides in-combat defence, just like before - its out-of-combat defence has just increased, along with possessing a higher stealth radius. Hence:

 

Quote

Pool: Concealment

• Concealment has been updated to include a new sneaky & versatile travel power: Infiltration
  • Concealment is now classed as a travel pool - the first 3 powers in the pool are available immediately instead of just the first 2
  • Invisibility and Stealth have been merged together, the best parts of both powers are now available with just Stealth
  • Infiltration now sits where Invisibility used to be in the T3 slot
•  Stealth
  • Stealth radius increased to match the numbers Invisibility had before this patch
    • PvE radius has increased from 36ft to 55ft
    • PvP radius has increased from 389ft to 611ft
  • Out of combat defence increased from 3.5% to 7%

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

You're right that EM (with your slotting) will not offer you much in the way of speed outside of combat....but in combat, yowser. You will be stuck in animation when you attack, but instead of having to wait 4s to get your speed back again, you can immediately zip around. Seriously, play test it in fight and experience the feel of moving so swiftly. Maybe you still won't like it, but there is certainly interest by others to being able to do that.

As someone that enjoys combat mobility, yes please.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

Defense Debuff is schedule A, To Hit Debuff is schedule B (I did use the word usually, to hit's an exception).

I guess it has just been so long since I used a Defense Debuff enhancement that I forgot.

[cohRock]

Is it too late to buff Acrobatics as part of i27p2?  I suggested this a while back:

The suggestion would add subtle features to Acrobatics to make it a power people might want to take, and make it worth its 0.26 end/sec cost.  In summary, I propose:

1. increase base run speed by 5%
2. increase base fly speed by 10%
3. increase base jump speed and jump height by 10%
4. resistance to slow debuff
5. resistance to recharge debuff

With Hover and Combat Jumping already having their speed raised, perhaps dropping all speed increases to 5% would make more sense.

 

Explanations and discussion in the original thread.  Even if you can't fit it in the current Beta build, is this something you would consider adding at a later date?

Edited March 18, 2021 by cohRock

[Wavicle]

I’m a little confused about one thing.

 

 In combat travel suppression was put in for a reason. What is the rationale behind giving Flight a power that essentially lets them have in combat flight without suppression?

[cohRock]

I just tested the enhanced Super Jump in the Shadow Shard (Chantry).  SJ+DJ was able to get my character about 2/3 of the way to the Storm Palace, but he still needed assist from a fly power to get him all the way there.   This test was done starting at the island one zones into.  I probably could have reached the Palace by jumping between islands (or using gravity wells and no travel power).  However, since finding the path into the Palace is a second obstacle once there. I'm not sure the enhanced Leaping Pool in itself will prove sufficiently flexible for the shadow shards.  If bringing leaping within the Shadow Shard to an equal footing with flight and teleportation is a goal, perhaps eliminating the timer for Double Jump within the shards would be one way to accomplish that.

 

I just verified on the way back from the Storm Palace to the FBZ portal that jumping from island to island works well.  So the only remaining issue is somehow finding the entrance before your jump timer runs out.

Edited March 18, 2021 by cohRock
added 2nd paragraph

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

I’m a little confused about one thing.

 

 In combat travel suppression was put in for a reason. What is the rationale behind giving Flight a power that essentially lets them have in combat flight without suppression?

The only powers susceptible to travel suppression are the actual travel powers (i.e. Super Speed, Super Jump, Fly, Speed of Sound, and Mighty Leap). You've always been able to get around travel suppression with powers such as Hover or Combat Jumping, it's just at a much lower speed.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

The only powers susceptible to travel suppression are the actual travel powers (i.e. Super Speed, Super Jump, Fly, Speed of Sound, and Mighty Leap). You've always been able to get around travel suppression with powers such as Hover or Combat Jumping, it's just at a much lower speed.

Yes, and now with EM you can go Way faster than that.

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Yes, and now with EM you can go Way faster than that.

Not full flight speed, I'd assume.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

Not full flight speed, I'd assume.

Seems like the speed Fly is on live.

[Wavicle]

As an aside, perhaps it would be fair for Nova Form Kheldians flight to have no suppression, since it is now Not full fly speed?