Discussion: Improvements to the Warriors

[Piecemeal]

As the Warriors show their age, the time has come to consider revisiting their aesthetic and their challenge to players.

 

I have begun the ideation of their design and revamping their power selection with new mechanics to make them more interesting to fight.

 

Currently, the following is in the idea phase:

• Power selections expanded
  • Sword, Axe, Mace, Staff, Brawling
  • Willpower, Super Reflexes, Shield
• Greek theme expanded (Lore, designations, weapons)
• New tattoos, faces, and outfits
• New high-level units for expanded gameplay dynamics

Concept

• The Warriors have been in sort of a middling state since forever (Subjective: My opinion)
  • Their look and powers are both... very uninspiring
    • I want to maintain the majority of their aesthetic while diversifying how they look from unit to unit
      • This includes weapons and outfits. Camo pants and torn jeans are still on the aesthetic outlook, as are sleeveless jackets and tees
      • Weapons should have a few different looks per type
    • Jackets, tattoos, headbands, gloves, boots, potentially lightly armored in some cases
• Odysseus not only has a warehouse full of relics, but he uses some, like Fists of Vulcan
  • While current feedback has already suggested not to turn them into New Hellions, I am hopeful to develop a plot in which this idea is presented, challenged, and resolved
  • Anything 'betraying' their natural-ness will be considered and resolved. In the end, I believe that the Warriors need to fill a niche of what normal humans can do with little to no magical cheat-codes.

What I would like to ask the playerbase is a wishlist of do's and don'ts, such as:

• Can you include this, this or this?
• Can you expand upon, clarify, or update this lore bit?
• No silly hats, spandex, or Viking horns
• No slap-on basic bandaid parts from the player geometries without heavy modification to make unique.

Please remember that this thread comes with no guarantees of anything. I'm still in the idea phase and any number of things could keep this from achieving fruition. Keep your hype levels... low.

[Doc_Scorpion]

One of things I like about the Warriors, and it may just be my impression, is that you level up to Talos and you encounter them as a group that hits hard.  Much harder than expected, and just as you're starting to feel super too...

I've been pondering on some of things said in the earlier thread, and I've hit upon a headcanon that puts a variety of puzzle pieces together.

Yes, they're Natural origin and they prize physical development...  and this has two effects.  First, a bitterly Darwinian competition for status within the group based on physical prowess and (to a lesser extent) on force of personality.  Second, yes, they eschew most magic because it runs counter to their physical prowess uber alles philosophy.  (And the only thing they hate more than magic is artificial (read: scientific or technological) enhancement of physical abilities.  Philosophically, the Freakshow and the Warriors are natural born enemies.)

But not all magic is created equal.  A mage is one thing, an artifact user is something else entirely.  But only very specific artifacts, they won't use staves that throw Magic Missile or Fireball - but a stave that adds damage, that's right up their alley.  Why?  Because it works with and enhances their natural abilities rather than granting them abilities they wouldn't otherwise have.  That's why they're artifact dealers - constantly seeking and sifting for artifacts that meet their narrow definitions of acceptable.  (Also, they aren't stupid, dealing in stuff they wouldn't use keeps other contacts and dealers happy, and business depends on good will.  Right?)

And that circles back to the competition for status...  because who gets to wield those scarce artifacts?  Someone who has proven themselves worthy of doing so.

[dnomad333]

IIRC, the Warriors were based on the 1979 film of the same name. For the most part I would rather not deviate too far from that idea, so staying somewhat true that theme appeals to me.

That being said, updating weapons, giving the members access to newer 'natural' power sets, seems like a good idea. The only thing I'm concerned about is a radical change.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Thank you for bringing this to the community, @Piecemeal.   It's appreciated!

 
I believe the best way to honour the wishes of most players would be to develop a divergent branch of the Warriors.
Those who want the original flavour get it have it preserved, while new life and energy can be injected with the addition of things which don't remove the old.
 
Level 5 to 15 Warriors completely unchanged (where even are these located in the game world, anyway?  Only ones I think I remember were in the Hollows occasionally making deals with Outcasts).
Level 20 to 24 Warriors unchanged, although with the occasional outdoor mob that has one of the Neo Warriors attempting to recruit their brethren.
Level 25 to 29 Warriors are split roughly 50-50 between the classic style, and the Neo Warriors.  No hostilities between the different Factions; their split is (mostly) amicable.
Level 30+ Neo Warriors expanded and exploring the new Aesthetic and Power Sets, but with a few "Hardcore Old Guard" sprinkled around.  The previously discussed female Warriors could also make their full début here.
 
Lean hard in to the splinter group being dissatisfied with Ulysses' reliance on Magic and determined to demonstrate their unblemished Natural strength and prowess.
Leadership (Pseudo-)Toggles and an emphasis on Tactics, with Lieutenants and Bosses bringing the rank-and-file Minions in to intimidating forces.  Rallying Cries and other AoE Buffs to bring fallen comrades back with a second wind, or inspired to strike with furious and righteous anger.  Similarly; Warcries to strike Fear in to their enemies or issue challenges to opponents to direct their attention to the strongest of the Warriors (Taunt).
 
No need for anything unique in terms of aesthetic.  These are Natural NPCs, after all.  Being flashy and gaudy isn't as important as demonstrating one's might in combat.  Sure, some wearable trophies for the Lts. and Bosses to denote their past victories, but anything of that nature should also be the same sort of stuff that Players could choose to access.
Aesthetics for any new textures, particularly facial textures:  Remember they're hardened warriors.  Grizzled, scarred, and determined flesh and expressions would be most suitable.  In a world where your enemies are wielding magical spells, extradimensional technology, and superhuman mutant powers . . . you're going to wind up coming out the other side with more than a few permanent battle wounds.
Wounds that would be celebrated in such a culture.
 
Having some Cimeroran inspiration could be cool.  Javelins are seriously underused.
Maybe a plot resolution that some of the female Warriors get invited to the Knives of Artemis.  Possibly the schism within the Warriors was even orchestrated in part as a means to develop an increased recruitment bed after the turmoil in Dark Astoria seriously harmed the Knives' numbers.
 
Finally, the Neo Warriors should probably lean a little (to a lot) more heroic than the existing Warriors.  If the general population is willing to look up to the frickin' -SKULLS- as potential saviours, then the Neo Warriors should stand as exemplars to all the citizens who fear or revile "super" heroes and villains.  The Neo Warriors should never be intimidating civilians with petty larceny and extortion.  They should be stepping in to the line of fire between a Tsoo Ink Man or Crey Tank and the poor Natural civies who are being oppressed by Magical and Technological threats.  Of course, the Neo Warriors should be just as willing to step in to the line of fire of any "so-called hero" and that same civilian, just to prove their point, even if the hero was just asking the civie if they were having a nice day.

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by TemporalVileTerror
Slight tweak in formatting, and added preamble.

[Aberrant]

Basically everything in your first post is inline with my thoughts I think. One of the most valuable updates to the Warriors in my opinion would be just better visual differentiation both within and between ranks. This is a pretty consistent design rule in CoH and games in general but the Warriors demonstrate this to the least obvious degree of all enemy groups. As they currently stand, all Warrior Minions pull from a pool of 6 minion models, and all Lieutenants and Bosses pull from 3 models, separated out to Axe, Mace and Sword, making it very tough to at a glance spot who's a potential threat.

 

Minions

 

Lieutenants & Bosses

 

Particularly their weapons, Minions should wield a different model than their Lieutenant and Boss counterparts to help spot the threats in the crowd. The pictures below were my own attempt in Architect to add a bit more personality and diversity to the group from a while back (though the clothing colour variation below is perhaps a bit too extreme and would benefit from toning down, these were a first pass at the time and I wanted them to aggressively pop but I definitely went too far and never went back to tweak them!). As with the regular Warriors, their trouser shape changes from Minion to Lt, but in addition as they go up in rank they:

• Gain camo patterning, first trousers then jackets
• Gain tattoos (not particularly pictured due to far too few tattoo options in-game. At minion level they would have small upper arm tattoos, graduating to more impressive full arm designs as they rank up)
• They become more generally rugged and angry, gaining more facial accessories and detail
• Their bracers change from bronze, to silver, to gold
• Their weapons improve in size, quality and flair

These still simple designs allow room for special characters like Heracles, or my own character Lysander pictured below, to really stand out with appropriate armour and arms. Since headbands are not a separate detail piece the below examples are unable to maintain the unifying red headband and would require new assets to be made for them, along with the iconic bracers and their back of jacket spartan helmet logo so that they fit on a modern player model rig. Here also I've given the 3 Boss variants unique names, rather than the uncreative Lieutenant Elite, though I admit it does end up feeling a bit thesaurus-y!

 

Minions: Slammer > Chopper > Slicer > Bruiser

 

Lieutenants: Crusher > Hewer > Slasher > Striker

 

Bosses: Wrecker > Divider > Shredder

 

Elite Boss example: - Lysander: First Encounter > Second Encounter

 

I don't personally understand the desire for people to tether them back to their namesakes from the 1979 film. The only commonality there as far as I'm aware is a vague martial theme, red headbands and sleeveless jackets. I feel this association is largely skin deep and should not hold this group back from a decent refresh.

 

In terms of powers, I'd be in favour of Boss class enemies gaining minor overt 'powers' tying in to their participation in the black market artifact trade and their potential origin of receiving physical power ups by drinking from a mystical urn provided by Odysseus, likely containing water from a fountain of the Well of the Furies that they drink more of as they advance in ranks in the group (source: Mission Architect description and leaked Story Bible). This could be achieved most simply by giving Lieutenants and Bosses basic Invulnerability or Super Reflexes defense powers, Build Ups and similar self buffing powers. Something small that accentuates that they aren't just a normal street gang and can stand toe-to-toe with their Talos Island rivals, the Freakshow (drugged-up regenerating cyborgs) and Tsoo (magic tattoo ninja-wizards). I feel like giving them more obvious magic powers like elemental blasts or similar would be a step too far and make them to similar to groups like the Tsoo and CoT, and anything like that should be kept for Special Characters. Maybe a flaming sword, but more than that would overshadow their martial aspect. Could also borrow some powers from Cimerorans but I think throwing pilums is a bit too medieval, and giving them all shields would be visual overkill. Cimerora already exists and I feel their groups do not need to be carbon-copied into Paragon City.

 

In summary:

Do:

• Increase visual diversity
• Increase power variety

Don't:

• Make them wizards
• Make them medieval cosplayers

On a side note, I'm amazed that the OG devs never put in a simple throwaway mid game mission where you rescue David Hill from a 'kidnapping' by the Warriors or a rival faction. He's one of very few characters in the game with a legit alter-ego running a front company!

 

David Hill: Owner of the Hill Import/Export Corporation

 

Edit: Just want to say as well, that I don't think a group schism narrative is necessary to add visual, mechanic or gender diversity to this or most other groups. It can just be an update, like the Circle of Thorns in Issue 21. It doesn't seem wholly economical to go to the effort to create whole subgroups of enemies only for them to appear in the spawndefs for one story arc. I feel any far reaching change should be propagated through every appearance of the group like the Skulls update in I24, which I consider the gold standard for an enemy group update. All Skulls were redone in every place they appeared. Even small updates like the Issue 18 single enemy additions to a number of enemy groups like the Super Stunners in Freakshow were a great boost for those groups.

 

Edit 2: Notably absent in the above images are any women. I didn't make them at the time as they don't have access to the Barbarian bracer glove and I didn't like them looking so different from the rest of the group. Screw the OG devs, more gender parity with costumes please!

Edited March 14, 2021 by Aberrant

[EmperorSteele]

My cheesy-ass opinon: Give the LTs yellow undershirts, and bosses Orange undershirts, matching their colors for even-conning mobs. Also, have LTs and Bosses have a little more armor (shoulder pads), and maybe give Bosses an Aura (maybe just on fists)? I know they're supposed to be the "natural" group, but they DO trade in magical artifacts, so it makes sense for high-ranking individuals would have a bit of magic on their side.

Otherwise, I like what you have here 😃

EDIT: I noticed you gave them different colored bracelets to differentiate their ranks! Cool, but, uh, Gold makes TERRIBLE armor, just FYI. I don't think they'd actually wear it.

Edited March 14, 2021 by EmperorSteele

[Aberrant]

9 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

EDIT: I noticed you gave them different colored bracelets to differentiate their ranks! Cool, but, uh, Gold makes TERRIBLE armor, just FYI. I don't think they'd actually wear it.

Uh.. It's gold coloured Enchanted Impervium! Very strong, very rare!

[TemporalVileTerror]

Special mission:  "Find out who's been stealing all the gold-colour paint from these hardware shops in Talos Island."

[Heraclea]

Having defeated a fair number of Warriors over the past week while Numina was the weekly, there does seem to be a pecking order among Talos gangs:

 

Freakshow > Warriors > Circle of Thorns

 

This seems odd in itself.  The enhanced Freakshow routinely dominate the natural Warriors, which makes some sense; but then the Warriors seem to routinely prevail ocwe and have a running conflict with the Circle, ordinary citizens given drastic magical powers by Oranbega spirits.  This makes a bit less sense to me, and craves an explanation. 

 

My preference would be to play up the Greco-Roman aesthetic of the group and downplay the 1980s movie, which situated them in a world full of colorful uniformed gangs.  Giving them natural tending powersets like Titan Weapons, Archery and Devices would make sense. 

[Crasical]

Info taken from the Paragon Archive:

 

The Warriors are a fierce street gang in Paragon City. They operate primarily out of the Talos Island and Striga Isle zones. Their membership is wide and varied, and they don’t seem to discriminate based on ethnicity, race, or religion. The one common trait that all members share is the ability to fight and to fight well.

 

Give 'em female members. They only care about your martial prowess, after all.

 

The Warriors take their inspiration and colors from ancient Greek soldiers, emblazing their jackets with the image of a crested hoplite helm. They also wear ornate bracers, and many sport detailed tattoos depicting ancient battles. However, their camouflage pants, torn vests, and combat boots are all trappings of modern urban warfare. As a final touch, perhaps symbolizing the glorious crests of their heroes, they all wear red headbands.

 

They're a mix of street gang, paramilitary, and ancient Greek. They think of themselves as soldiers, Warriors (hence the name). I think that losing the camo and combat boots will detract; but giving them more tattoos and scars will emphasize them being brutal urban fighters. More ancient armor bits is also a good point, making them out to be a blending of new and old, modern and ancient, will improve them. Despite them being violent pragmatists, they seem to prefer ancient weapons for 'honor' reasons; so no guns or ammo belts or things like that. Giving them some javelin throws from the Cimerorans instead of/in addition to their bows would work.

 

The Warriors’ martial skills are also seemingly enhanced by some exposure to magical energies. Nowhere is this enhancement clearer than among the bosses, although some suspect that the lieutenants and even some of the street soldiers have also benefited from a magical blessing. The Smasher Elite, Slasher Elite, and Hewer Elite are not only expert fighters, but are magically tough and resilient. Inexperienced heroes may be surprised the first time they land a powerful blow to see the Warrior laugh it off and strike back just as hard.

 

They are just straight up magic. They're not wizards, but they use artifacts and are slurping from the magic urn that Odysseus got somehow. Magic weapons and armor are good, wands and staves maybe not. They might be evil.

 

The Elite rule the roost and run the day-to-day activities of the gang. Although they commonly engage in many base gang activities, like extortion, robberies, and protection rackets, their focus is primarily on the buying and selling of mystical artifacts – running the magical black market, as it were. This often puts the Warriors in conflict with the Circle of Thorns. The Warriors seem to have neutral or even positive connections to the Outcasts and Hellions, however, two other gangs focused on the trade of magical artifacts. The Warriors have had a long-standing rivalry with the Trolls and the Freakshow, but their greatest enemies are the Tsoo, who constantly threaten to usurp their territory and drive them out of Talos Island.

 

Maybe explore a little how exactly the Warriors get all these artifacts. Are there a class of Warriors (Athenian rather than Spartan) who are non-combat craftsmen (Like the Tsoo tattoo masters?) Are they stealing most of it from Oranbega (Anti-wizard strike teams, warriors prepped to kill ghosts and demons to bust into the Circle of Thorns' lairs and steal their trinkets?) There's some interesting lore space to explore here.

 

Do:

• Add female members
• Keep the 'urban resistance soldier' part of their motif
• Emphasize their use of magical weapons and armor. 

Don't:

• Give them guns

[Take One]

15 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

No slap-on basic bandaid parts from the player geometries without heavy modification to make unique.

 

What? No! We hate when enemies have unique costume pieces that we can't use!

[DreadShinobi]

Just because it was brought up in the OP and I would never have thought of the warriors using staff fighting otherwise, I don't feel like this would fit in with how I view the faction. I like all the hack and slash and staff fighting feels a bit flashy for them. I would be in favor of street justice though, and maybe some martial arts. Maybe as supplementary longer cooldown skills like crane kick, rib cracker or the t9s with their primary weapon capabilities.

 

I would be thrilled to fight the warriors if they had a bonus crit chance.

 

I would be thrilled to see the warriors with some additional defensive capabilities, but I could say the same thing there about every enemy faction. I'm not sure how I would feel if every warrior had a shield, probably wouldn't like seeing more than a couple in a x8 spawn. Rise to the Challenge feels like a thematic fit, but likely wouldn't do much. Increased dodge chance/super reflexes makes sense too, but most people aren't a fan of whiffing. A mini 5 second moment of glory for lts and bosses would appeal to me.

[Replacement]

I agree with @DreadShinobi - staves feel mostly out of step. 

 

I still think they have a place, but it's one of distinction. Obviously, a named character works, but for a standard unit, I could really only see it justified on a unit that is intentionally different and even out of step with the rest of the group (pariahs in the group that fill caster roles, for example).

 

Street Justice: being entirely unarmed doesn't feel right for the warriors either. Have them start fights with the Cimeroran javelin throw though and it feels a lot better (to me).

• Do diversify their damage types and roles.
• Do keep red headbands and other minor nods to the Warriors we know.
• Don't worship the "Warriors" film - it's homage, but shackling their identify to it is just plagiarism.

You know, I'm liking the idea of this staff pariah. "The Warrior Delvers are a caste of warriors determined to have more guts than combat prowess. As an alternative to being expelled by the gang, they have been ordered to master their magical staves, which are slowly feeding on their souls." It's a wizard staff and magic, sure, but at least it brings a thematic "last chance" vibe, and some Staff attacks.

[Piecemeal]

I hear you on the staves, but I am intent on bringing it in to the concept. It's a smashy stick not unlike Mace, I'll simply avoid the breakdance move and possibly swap or change animations here and there to make it less Staff-Fu for them. I think a Warrior coming at you with a bo staff seems in step, personally.

 

Edit: Greek spearmen? Yes please.

[Piecemeal]

I also overlooked the thematic nature of the headband, so I will keep those present, and red.

[Galaxy Brain]

I really dig the idea that they would be a Vigilante group moreso than an "Enemy" group, almost like a pseudo Primal version of the Resistance, natural people "fighting back" against the super-natural. 

[Cutter]

With respect to the notion of splitting the Warriors out by factions, there is in-game lore that could be used to make this happen: the micro-arc Redemption of Alexander the Great. If there were more people within the faction who felt the same way as Alexander does, that could provide a springboard to explore a potential schism.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Cutter
edited link

[TemporalVileTerror]

Here's a safer link for you, @Cutter:

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Ashwin_Lannister#Go_talk_with_Alexander.2C_and_do_whatever_you_can_to_bring_him_into_protective_custody

I would recommend editing your message.  The "fandom" site has been known to distribute malware through the advertisements there on occasion.

 

But yeah!  Wonderful reference to existing lore!

[Piecemeal]

I do think this idea with Alexander has legs. I will certainly use him for something, but I'm still hesitant to make ANOTHER civil war. We just had one with the Vahzilok and the Freakshow, so I need a vehicle to carry me forward with the Warriors that can maybe siphon people off the Warrior ranks into another group.

 

 

[TemporalVileTerror]

No need for war, even if they are the Warriors, @Piecemeal.

Sometimes you have break-ups where everyone just sort of nods and goes their separate ways.

Maybe you still pine for them from time to tim- er . . . um . . . ok.  Maybe a little too real here.  Moving on!

 

HEY LOOK!   Funny video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-YBiOaXE3Q

 

But yeah.  What I proposed up there would basically mean that the Classic Warriors hold the faction at the lower and mid-tier levels, while the Neo Warriors pick up things in the 30+ range.  You then leave the existing "cameo missions" of the Classic Warriors in the higher level content unchanged, but introduce entirely new content with the Neo Warriors.

[Cutter]

Well I was in the process of typing some stuff out, but @TemporalVileTerror beat me to the core of it.

 

Another option, instead of a Warriors > Neo-Warriors transition, could instead see them as units organized for different purposes. The "street-level" current iteration of thugs, and a more trained/regimented group (bodyguards? relic hunters?) which could add in e.g. the spear users and tacticians. This group could be used to explore the "how" of their acquisition/creation of their relics (as was mentioned by @Crasical). Adding some depth to the lore of a faction seems good.

 

To retain the Alexander hook, it could simply be that they end up agreeing to disagree on their methods, but come to recognize their shared commitment to physical perfection is the stronger bond. An "Avert the civil war in the Warriors' ranks" story would turn that trope neatly on its head.

 

And speaking of depth of lore, we learn early on that there are two "chains" of cooperation that start from the Skulls and the Hellions, but I don't recall (highly probable I missed it tho) any exploration of this at the level the Warriors appear. Having a mission where a random grey-con gangbanger pops up would be a nice little touch to strengthen that chain.

[Aberrant]

1 hour ago, Cutter said:

And speaking of depth of lore, we learn early on that there are two "chains" of cooperation that start from the Skulls and the Hellions, but I don't recall (highly probable I missed it tho) any exploration of this at the level the Warriors appear. Having a mission where a random grey-con gangbanger pops up would be a nice little touch to strengthen that chain.

 

In the story bible they refer to it as "Smuggler's Run", the distribution of stolen art and artifacts starting at the Hellions, through to the Outcasts and ending with the Warriors. It shows up a bit in some of Shadowstars early Warshade arcs, and appears mostly in common pooled missions like Hellion Interrogation, Outcast Auction, so it's easy to miss references to it when there aren't any major arcs or TFs around it, and the Warriors are rarely mentioned until you reach Talos itself.

 

Interestingly in the Take Out Frostfire mission, the Outcasts guarding the Warding Altar object mention they got it from Achilles, who it could be assumed is a member of the Warriors that sold it to them.

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Aberrant

[Replacement]

22 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

I do think this idea with Alexander has legs. I will certainly use him for something, but I'm still hesitant to make ANOTHER civil war. We just had one with the Vahzilok and the Freakshow, so I need a vehicle to carry me forward with the Warriors that can maybe siphon people off the Warrior ranks into another group.

 

 

I know I mentioned this before so my apologies but how about the opposite of a civil war? A merger!

 

I had mentioned before that there are suspicious similarities in the origin stories and overall anachronistic nature of both Warriors and Legacy of Chain (i.e. if you assume the demon prince who gave odysseus the chalice was an avatar of the demon under mount diable), and that could at least be an interesting subplot.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Replacement

[TemporalVileTerror]

I think the Demon Prince from Vincent Ross' arc, Botis ( https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Vincent_Ross#Meet_with_Botis ), might make a little more sense than Bat'Zul, @Replacement.

Botis is a broker.  A deal-maker.  A manipulator.  Bat'Zul is just a very big, very angry fiery rage-monster trapped in a mountain.

 

But, yeah.  Some interplay between the Legacy Chain and the Warriors could be really quite interesting.  Especially if the player comes in to it thinking "oh no!  The Warriors are attacking the Legacy Chain base!"  Then the player shows up and finds out "nah, chill.  We're just having a meeting about shared interests and possibly uniting to deal with a dire threat."

[BZRKR]

Wishlist:

Based on the excellent posts upthread, maybe the story should have different options depending on alignment? A Vigilante might sympathize with Warriors who are seen rescuing citizens from perils. A Hero might be disappointed to see the Legacy Chain working with the Warriors, whilst a Rogue might step in to facilitate, for a fee.

 

If it's in the cards, look at adding some new weapon skins to the higher level Warriors. Weapon skins that unlock with shiny new badges 🙂