Remove Cap on Power Pools

[Bill Z Bubba]

Hi. SG-mates requested I make a post on this and to all those that work on Mids, I'm so sorry.

 

Why only four regular power power pools?

Why does taking Sorcery lock you out of Experimentation and Force of Will?

Why can't Kheldians have APP/PPP and why can't Arachnos that go hero-side and get APP?

 

Let's toss these rules out the window.

 

We'd still have the same number of power picks and slots and we'd keep the rules where you have to have two of a pool to get the later powers.

 

Once upon a time, the devs locked Kheldians out of movement pools that they already had inherently and then fixed that oversight, as they should have, and I was grateful because my PB finally had Air Superiority. Let's take that to the next level so that we can make truly horrific and inefficient monstrosities!

Edited March 17, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Incursion]

10 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Hi. SG-mates requested I make a post on this and to all those that work on Mids, I'm so sorry.

 

Why only four regular power power pools?

Why does taking Sorcery lock you out of Experimentation and Force of Will?

Why can't Kheldians have APP/PPP and why can't Arachnos that go hero-side and get APP?

 

Let's toss these rules out the window.

 

We'd still have the same number of power picks and slots and we'd keep the rules where you have to have two of a pool to get the later powers.

 

Once upon a time, the devs locked Kheldians out of movement pools that they already had inherently and then fixed that oversight, as they should have, and I was grateful because my PB finally had Air Superiority. Let's take that to the next level so that we can make truly horrific and inefficient monstrosities!

 

You've always been a respected player and poster, hope you fare better than I on this subject.  I think only 4 pools is silly especially since we have access to 1 extra pool (because the new one's don't stack as you pointed out,) and it just doesn't make sense as players should be able to build how they wish.   Part of the issue with them stacking the new sets is because they decided to put Tier 9 like powers in each of them, which i think would have been better suited for the ancillary/patrol pools but i digress. It is nice to have the powers of course, but i do see balance issues with someone chaining rune of protection, unleashed potential, and in some cases (for melee) running their natural tier 9 and an optional epic like shadow meld (which arguably would be a great power if it lasted more then 12 usable seconds (worth of its on thread).  I like choice and would love to see things opened up more though. 

[Blackfeather]

I'd like this:

Mostly to be able to go for a different travel power for flavour's sake - especially now that the regular travel powers are more specialised/better than their origin counterparts, looking at the i27p2 beta patch notes.

[Tsugaru]

I am in favor of not being limited to only four power pools. 

 

Although, I don't use Teleport as a travel power on most of my characters, I do like taking Recall Friend [Teleport Target].  It is a very convenient power for me but sometimes a build requires more than one power from a given pool and so taking just Recall Friend using up an entire pool choice need to be sacrificed.

 

This is just one example of many...

Edited March 17, 2021 by Tsugaru

[MTeague]

15 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

.....

Why does taking Sorcery lock you out of Experimentation and Force of Will?

.....

 

Addressing this question only, my understanding (perhaps flawed), is that since these are origin sets and you can only have one origin, they didn't want to allow more. But also, even beyond that, I think there was an unspoken "And the last power in each of the Origin sets is Too Darn Good to allow you to grab more than one of these".

 

Whether or not having Unleash Potential AND Adrenal Booster AND Rune of Protection (costing 9 power picks to get all three, but you could pretty much have one up at all times if you did) would really be OP / Unbalancing, I don't know. But it something the devs would want to take into account choosing to leave as is or relax the restriction.

[Bill Z Bubba]

33 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Whether or not having Unleash Potential AND Adrenal Booster AND Rune of Protection (costing 9 power picks to get all three, but you could pretty much have one up at all times if you did) would really be OP / Unbalancing, I don't know. But it something the devs would want to take into account choosing to leave as is or relax the restriction.

 

I would definitely have to argue that burning 9 power picks to get there would be a sufficient cost.

[SwitchFade]

As in the other thread, I vote to keep it at 4

[Alchemystic]

The reason you're limited to just 4 power pools is to ensure that you aren't just hoarding the most useful powers from across all the pools and building something absurd, more so for the origin power pools which are especially effective and designed in such a way where having more than one would make you dangerously overpowered.

 

So I'm gonna have to pass on this one.

[RageusQuitus2]

8 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

The reason you're limited to just 4 power pools is to ensure that you aren't just hoarding the most useful powers from across all the pools and building something absurd, more so for the origin power pools which are especially effective and designed in such a way where having more than one would make you dangerously overpowered.

 

So I'm gonna have to pass on this one.

Dangerously overpowered? I dont see that at all.  And honestly with P2W, Incarnates, base powers, accolades and some powersets being much strong than others already.  Arent we already dangerously overpowered.  Add that to long recharges on most of these powers, and moar choices usually being a good thing....  Also you cant just hoard the most usefull powers, as most of the strongest (except maybe hasten) pool powers come with a large investment (of much weaker powers) in each pool.  

 

As for origin argument.  I can take mystic flight on natural toons...  Origin long ago lost its value, especially with P2W removing the benefits of say black wand for only certain origins.

 

I agree with the OP /signed.

[AerialAssault]

[Dahkness]

I think opening it to 5 should be the max if this does happen, since a lot of people take hasten and RoP. And I prefer an extra pool power over grandfathering  hasten into a inherent power. (off topic sry). 
 

I solo play a lot with randomes. I prefer not to join a team with players that take 6 or 7 different pool powers. Means I have to work harder to kill things.  
 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Dahkness

[Alchemystic]

@RageusQuitus2 if what you're saying is that we're already dangerously overpowered, then that would be an argument against making characters needlessly more powerful, surely? 🤔

[Zirilion]

I'm with @Bill Z Bubba that I want more freedom to build characters differently.  I have too many builds where I feel forced to take a primary/secondary power that I don't like since I already hit the 4 power pool limit.  I'm all about choice and making the character that you want to play and this is a great suggestion.

[RageusQuitus2]

23 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

@RageusQuitus2 if what you're saying is that we're already dangerously overpowered, then that would be an argument against making characters needlessly more powerful, surely? 🤔

Im saying that cat is so far out of the bag, that this change makes very little to no difference in total power.  If the focus was balance and nerfs the focus should be on other areas.  I dont feel adding one more long recharge power to a build would be the change that makes toons dangerously overpowered.  I do feel it would add more variety to builds. 

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

 Arent we already dangerously overpowered. 

Honestly, yes,  we are.  And there's a reason why I flatly 100% do-not-team from after lvl 44 until I am T4 incarnated myself.  Having a full squad of incarnates in content that was never even remotely designed for it, is, to me, 100% Boring-as-Hell. I get that some people love the roflstomp power trip. And hey, why not.  I simply do not team and do not partake, because of how overpowered we are. 

 

The game for me, is a very slow 1-50 levelling grind, mostly solo, and then flashbacks with anyone who's interested. I do not enjoy the incarnate game, at all.  I'll still end up crafting incarnates on a few heroes where it actually meshes with their backstories and fits their character concept that they might become powers that could hold Galactus etc at bay.  But that's a small % of my characters. I'm "meh" on changes that I think will cause more power creep because of how worthless the lvl 50 game already is to me. But I get that how I see the game, isn't how most people I talk to see the game. 

[Incursion]

If you add more pools which has been done (3 more in fact), and you keep it locked to only one, 5 pools is only fair because it allows you to do whatever you want with the other 4 and dip into one of these if you so choose. Or just get a 5th

because all the other pools had powers added also.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Incursion

[ScarySai]

If pools continue to be balanced as mediocre outside of 'the untouchables', then I don't really see a reason to be against this. Some builds need the extra lotg.

[Zeraphia]

This would heavily entice me to use more defense powers for LOTG, especially for speedrunning builds to squeak in extra recharge. In addition, there's some pools that have 1 or 2 powers out of them, that are intro and certainly not "game-breaking" that I could migrate to and plan fun builds around. It would allow me to take the Presence pool (underused) much more often, and I'd be able to dip into Invisibility for more LOTG's. I don't see where Power Pools are so grossly "OP" that they need to be restricted. Even opening them up to a max of 5 would be a substantial improvement for build diversities. 

 

At this point, I think the fears of "too many overpowered things" are unfounded. You still have your capped power selections, and enhancement slots, therefore you're negating some of the powerful primary/secondary abilities you'd take otherwise, that and we already kind of are at the highest degree of power-creep with judgements. 

 

Have to say, I like the idea a lot. 

[Greycat]

See prior thread on topic from ... what, less than a week ago?

 

Just no.

 

Either that or go whole hog and unlock absolutely everything. Remove the cap on IO set bonuses. Don't force any power picks at all. Burn the game world down. Go completely freeform - no AT powerset selection limits or modifiers. (Which does lead to some serious brokenness.) Make Hasten, Tough and Weave inherent, as well as one completely free power and armor power selection (which means mez resist is freely open for everyone who doesn't have it.)  Open up incarnates at level 1. Yep, that means you coul dturn off XP, earn components and make a level 1 +3. Oh, and remove minimum levels for task/strike forces.

 

Should take care of anyone's complaints about limits.

 

Then in 3 months, we (well, you, I'll haul RP folks back to PChat or something) can wonder where everyone went and why they think the game is so boring now.

[Incursion]

I still see no answer for the point I made about adding more pools yet not adjusting the amount accessible. The last thread you guys made it all about it hasten, the other pool thread is a mixed bag. The devs made a decision to stick tier 9 level powers in the pools without addressing existing tier 9 powers and it still didn’t break the game.  Now you have 4 choices out of 11 instead of 4/8 but that’s okay. Many would be okay with limiting the new 3 to 1 but having 5 pools would open up so many possibilities and combos and if people dive in, they are giving up something elsewhere.  Hardly gamebreaking. I’d love it on test if they could open it up for actual gameplay testing. 

[Moka]

WeHaveCake is the perfect place for things like this.

[Maxzero]

On 3/18/2021 at 5:26 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I would definitely have to argue that burning 9 power picks to get there would be a sufficient cost.

 

I plan on getting all the travel powers and then turning them all on AT THE SAME TIME!

 

The mobs won't know what hit them!*

 

*The answer would be nothing hit them because I didn't have open power picks to take any attack powers.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Maxzero

[Incursion]

31 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

 

I plan on getting all the travel powers and then turning them all on AT THE SAME TIME!

 

The mobs won't know what hit them!*

 

*The answer would be nothing hit them because I didn't have open power picks to take any attack powers.

The arguments against opening up the pools with the same limitations there are now as far as precursors, and maintaining the limit of 1 new one have no meat.  There Is no logic any more for keeping it to 4. All the added powers to the pools are deep where some big decisions need to be made if people want to go balls deep in them. 
 

 

looking at my own characters I typically use about 7-8 pool powers total and 2-3 epics. The most I’ve ever used in the game was, 3 from force of will, 1 from speed, 2 from leadership and 3 from fighting. That’s 9 powers on my em/ice. This left me room for the necessary powers for my playstyle in primary and secondary and I took 2 epics. If I dove deeper than that I’d have a very hard time parting ways with the remaining powers, and would likely be sacrificing quite a bit. Opening the pools won’t make it roflcopter easy. It just makes some characters more interesting.  I’d be all for removing fluff precursor picks or the ability to respec out of starting powers which often get pushed aside later in game, I’d love to just see something different. Considering how many new powers were added it just seems fitting to allow more flexibility. 
 

 

[RageusQuitus2]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

See prior thread on topic from ... what, less than a week ago?

 

Just no.

 

Either that or go whole hog and unlock absolutely everything. Remove the cap on IO set bonuses. Don't force any power picks at all. Burn the game world down. Go completely freeform - no AT powerset selection limits or modifiers. (Which does lead to some serious brokenness.) Make Hasten, Tough and Weave inherent, as well as one completely free power and armor power selection (which means mez resist is freely open for everyone who doesn't have it.)  Open up incarnates at level 1. Yep, that means you coul dturn off XP, earn components and make a level 1 +3. Oh, and remove minimum levels for task/strike forces.

 

Should take care of anyone's complaints about limits.

 

Then in 3 months, we (well, you, I'll haul RP folks back to PChat or something) can wonder where everyone went and why they think the game is so boring now.

Obviously there is a middle ground that doesnt require one small leap to lead to such extremes.  Its silly to suggest because I think something would be fun or good for the game...  Then clearly I want everything else you listed.  Or that because power pools get opened up, then everything else you listed will happen.  In fact its very unlikely any of what you suggest would happen even if this thread were to get implemented.  Chill man.  Its a conversation.  Im not mad you dont like the ideas, dont be mad I do like em.

Edited March 18, 2021 by RageusQuitus2

[Maxzero]

39 minutes ago, Incursion said:

The arguments against opening up the pools with the same limitations there are now as far as precursors, and maintaining the limit of 1 new one have no meat.  There Is no logic any more for keeping it to 4. All the added powers to the pools are deep where some big decisions need to be made if people want to go balls deep in them. 
 

 

looking at my own characters I typically use about 7-8 pool powers total and 2-3 epics. The most I’ve ever used in the game was, 3 from force of will, 1 from speed, 2 from leadership and 3 from fighting. That’s 9 powers on my em/ice. This left me room for the necessary powers for my playstyle in primary and secondary and I took 2 epics. If I dove deeper than that I’d have a very hard time parting ways with the remaining powers, and would likely be sacrificing quite a bit. Opening the pools won’t make it roflcopter easy. It just makes some characters more interesting.  I’d be all for removing fluff precursor picks or the ability to respec out of starting powers which often get pushed aside later in game, I’d love to just see something different. Considering how many new powers were added it just seems fitting to allow more flexibility. 
 

 

 

Add to that many builds take the same pools.

 

Speed for Hasten

Fighting for Tough/Weave

Jumping for CJ

Flying for Hover

 

Sometimes Leadership pops up. Trying to fit in multiple origin pools is a pipe dream.

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Maxzero