Focused Feedback: Power Changes (Release Candidates)

[scottocamp]

3 hours ago, Jimmy said:

A lot of personal attacks have been posted (and hidden) recently and innocent posts definitely have been caught in the crossfire. From what I can tell your last post in this thread isn't hidden (I did go through and unhide a few this morning which were mistakenly hidden, though, so you may have missed it).

 

We aren't just hiding people disagreeing with this change - just read through the thread and you'll see that 🙂

 

New feedback is not beating the dead horse; we are reading and absorbing all the feedback. Back-and-forth bickering with thinly veiled insults isn't doing anything but clogging up the thread and preventing new opinions from being heard (I'm not accusing you of this - just a general observation regarding posters on both sides of the argument). That is beating a dead horse, and it's a real sink on our time to moderate it, which is why innocent posts keep getting caught up in it.

 

However, just because we are reading the feedback, it doesn't mean we are going to be compelled by it. I agree our communication on this change could've been better - we'll work on improving that going forwards.

 

Seems like a lot of effort given to moderating this thread to keep it "focused".  Wouldn't it be easier to just state the reasoning behind the change to RoP so that the community can indeed discuss the issue in a focused manner instead of randomly speculating?  Keeping us in the dark seems to be fueling a lot (most?) of the rambling back and forth.

 

And while better communication "going forwards" is wonderful, that doesn't necessarily preclude better communication right now about the issue at hand.  :)

 

Thanks again for Fold Space!!!

[EnjoyTheJourney]

The proposed change to singy would make at least some ranged grav characters think twice about taking it. Pulling mobs back into squishie ranks isn't a good way to win over teammates, particularly when it pulls mobs out of range of melee taunt auras. 

 

Putting in an "attractant" power makes good thematic sense for grav characters and brings some interesting tactical choices into the game. If it's a "drop" power then that would be potentially quite helpful. 

 

FWIW, I use fold space on my poison defender quite a bit. I try to use it either up ahead of the team to group mobs up for their arrival or near the tank / brute if they're taking alpha; it's less potentially disorienting and frustrating for teammates that way. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by EnjoyTheJourney

[WindDemon21]

8 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Putting in an "attractant" power makes good thematic sense for grav characters and brings some interesting tactical choices into the game. If it's a "drop" power then that would be potentially quite helpful. 

Agreed, I love that the mechanic is able to be introduced but it needs to be in Gravity Sink replacing dimension shift or crush as an AoE location knockdown power like ice slick on a 90 timer that pulls inward.

[arcane]

Singy change sounds fun. Makes me want a new Grav toon. Without testing it, it seems that the only issue would be that it will become preferable to summon Singy in the middle of a mob, begging the question: could we reduce the recharge on T9 controller pets just a hair? I wouldn’t mind enhancing it for recharge if the change is good enough though.

 

Absolute hard no on getting rid of Dimension Shift. Too many players like it as is.

[WindDemon21]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

Absolute hard no on getting rid of Dimension Shift. Too many players like it as is.

I mean, people can be crazy if they want but the majority of us HATE that power. That said the ST immobilizes on all control sets really are infinitely annoying and useless IMO even given containment, but at least in gravity's situation even more so given it also has lift and propel. Not to mention that the ST hold in it and mind control both NEED to be tier 1/2, could ditch crush, move lift/GD/crushing field/propel up a tier, and put Gravity sink at level 8.

[arcane]

15 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I mean, people can be crazy if they want but the majority of us HATE that power. That said the ST immobilizes on all control sets really are infinitely annoying and useless IMO even given containment, but at least in gravity's situation even more so given it also has lift and propel. Not to mention that the ST hold in it and mind control both NEED to be tier 1/2, could ditch crush, move lift/GD/crushing field/propel up a tier, and put Gravity sink at level 8.

I’m not sure if there’s much of a real reason that it would be hugely overpowered for controller pets to recharge in 1-2 minutes instead of 4. I would prefer that approach as it would let you use singy as a location AoE to achieve this effect without messing up any of the other powers.

[Jacke]

1 hour ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

The proposed change to singy would make at least some ranged grav characters think twice about taking it. Pulling mobs back into squishie ranks isn't a good way to win over teammates, particularly when it pulls mobs out of range of melee taunt auras.

 

This is definitely a problem in some circumstances.  Unless Singularity can be controlled, the point of attraction can't be determined, so it'll often be a problem.

 

Is there anyway the attraction can be put in a secondary power of Singularity (like Translocation is with respect to Mystic Flight), effectively allowing the Controller to tell Singy to "PULL NOW" ?

 

42 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

That said the ST immobilizes on all control sets really are infinitely annoying and useless IMO even given containment, but at least in gravity's situation even more so given it also has lift and propel. Not to mention that the ST hold in it and mind control both NEED to be tier 1/2, could ditch crush, move lift/GD/crushing field/propel up a tier, and put Gravity sink at level 8.

 

The Controller ST immobilizes provide high DPS and DPE attacks for low levels, as well as keeping mobs away from the Controller and thus only using their weaker ranged powers.  They also provide AV immobilization for later levels (all are Mag 4 base I believe) to lock down the runners and keep them in various patch debuffs.

[Jimmy]

Please don't respond to baits. It just means we need to hide more posts. Thanks.

[ScarySai]

I play mastermind quite a bit, and I can't say I'd be overly bothered if controllers were allowed to...you know, CONTROL their own creations, especially if it's a general benefit to the team.

[Jacke]

Considering the intense desire for commenting on the Rune of Protection change--and that it is overwhelming any feedback on the other changes--I suggest it be split into its own "Feedback" thread that can allow the community to express its support and/or frustration.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Jacke

[WindDemon21]

17 minutes ago, Jacke said:

The Controller ST immobilizes provide high DPS and DPE attacks for low levels, as well as keeping mobs away from the Controller and thus only using their weaker ranged powers.  They also provide AV immobilization for later levels (all are Mag 4 base I believe) to lock down the runners and keep them in various patch debuffs.

I get that, but in large part they are skippable. However ESPECIALLY on grav control, having also lift and propel for damage, crushing field, and also sing having crush and GD slows and the slow in GD, it is extremely unneeded on gravity, where the gravity sink power at level 8 and GD being able to be picked at level one would go REALLY far to fixing gravity.

[Carnifax]

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

@Keleko

 

Wormhole on top of singy, failing that, resummon.

 

This change has made my grav/storm much more effective. Any team that complains about it when KD IOs are in use is nuts and should be ignored.

"Ew. Please turn off that obnoxious noise" for example?

 

That's an actual quote from an ITF I was on with kb2kd repel switched on (in fact it was the point where I decided they were right and I respecced it out afterwards).

 

My Singy is 6 slotted for Expediant and I don't like him pulling things off my Oil Slick / Disruption Field. 

[Carnifax]

8 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I get that, but in large part they are skippable. However ESPECIALLY on grav control, having also lift and propel for damage, crushing field, and also sing having crush and GD slows and the slow in GD, it is extremely unneeded on gravity, where the gravity sink power at level 8 and GD being able to be picked at level one would go REALLY far to fixing gravity.

Single target immob is useful for setting up 1 shot containment. Especially Vs AVs.

 

In this case my grav is fine, but only cos I'm Trick Arrow. 

 

Honestly I'd love it as a new GDF which works more like Darks AoE hold but with the neg repel in too.

 

Singy has always been one of the better behaved pets. This lowers that (by making him more prone to pulling things in then firing them away).

 

Singy is pretty much one of the best pets going. He doesn't need this change in an attempt to make him better (cos it makes me potentially worse at my job which is "assembling a patch of doom and keeping things in it")

Edited March 30, 2021 by Carnifax

[ScarySai]

Noise complaint could be solved by the devs separately from function, though if it bothers people that much, they have the ability to swap audio files.

 

Pet commands, a reduction in pull range or a difference in ai behavior could make Singy work better with killzones.

 

Doubt singy is getting KB>KD by default ever, so I would adjust your IO build to include it regardless just doe to the sheer QoL offered. I'd be willing to help with that.

[zenblack]

24 minutes ago, Jacke said:

Considering the intense desire for commenting on the Rune of Protection change--and that it is overwhelming any feedback on the other changes--I suggest it be split into its own "Feedback" thread that can allow the community to express its support and/or frustration.

 

There is an entire General forum where there is no requirement to be feedback and such a thread can exist without wasting Dev time by trawling through pages of opinion to get to something usable.

Edited March 30, 2021 by zenblack

[Carnifax]

Another counter-proposal. 

 

Give the Sudden Impact Kb2kd this new -repel behaviour instead (grants 4 seconds of non stackable -repel towards the target point & converts repel to neg repel)

 

That way people with it already in Singy get essentially the same behaviour. I keep my old Singy and it could be used in other powers like Hurricane too if you use the Repel conversion (that might be too powerful though, maybe just start with adding a short term Attractor effect)

 

Edit : The more I think about this the more fun it seems. 

 

Sudden Impact : Converts KB2BD. Spawn at target:  Attactor Entity (-Repel. Silent Kill after 2 seconds).

 

Now Singy can do it if you have the Sudden Impact slotted. So can Repel from Kinetics (which is kinda cool). So can other kb powers (like Handclap or Shield Charge). 

 

And the Sudden Impact is a bit of a sad IO. I mean you take it if you have too but usually to make a poorish power decent (like Tornado). 

 

Oooh, suction tornado....

 

The hard bit is checking what "target" is for each power I guess. I mean for any PBAoE it should be Caster. For a ranged attack it should be the victim. 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Carnifax

[Mezmera]

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

A lot of personal attacks have been posted (and hidden) recently and innocent posts definitely have been caught in the crossfire. From what I can tell your last post in this thread isn't hidden (I did go through and unhide a few this morning which were mistakenly hidden, though, so you may have missed it).

 

We aren't just hiding people disagreeing with this change - just read through the thread and you'll see that 🙂

 

New feedback is not beating the dead horse; we are reading and absorbing all the feedback. Back-and-forth bickering with thinly veiled insults isn't doing anything but clogging up the thread and preventing new opinions from being heard (I'm not accusing you of this - just a general observation regarding posters on both sides of the argument). That is beating a dead horse, and it's a real sink on our time to moderate it, which is why innocent posts keep getting caught up in it.

 

However, just because we are reading the feedback, it doesn't mean we are going to be compelled by it. I agree our communication on this change could've been better - we'll work on improving that going forwards.

 

No the prior post to that one which was pointing out that the likely dead silence about the change to RoP was because it was getting changed no matter what was being stated by those who question the change to it.  I wasn't personally attacking anyone and from what I can tell this topic has been pretty considerate considering how toxic it could get.  I try to interject with levity so to keep things on a civil level.  But sure if someone's taking a dig at me I'm grown I can handle it somewhat maturely.  And sure anything blatantly off topic use your magic wand.  

 

You guys do a pretty good job but the communication skills are lacking when you're deadset on a change you've been targeting for a while that's going to be hard to explain other than saying it's OP.  I'm not upset about the change, more I'm providing my reasoning in anticipation of future changes that are going to affect the health of the population on these servers that could have the same little explanation and input from those outside of that secret testing facility.  

 

Sure get rid of the static if you feel the need but removing on topic conversations only promotes less participation.  

[WindDemon21]

19 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Single target immob is useful for setting up 1 shot containment. Especially Vs AVs.

 

In this case my grav is fine, but only cos I'm Trick Arrow. 

 

Honestly I'd love it as a new GDF which works more like Darks AoE hold but with the neg repel in too.

 

Singy has always been one of the better behaved pets. This lowers that (by making him more prone to pulling things in then firing them away).

 

Singy is pretty much one of the best pets going. He doesn't need this change in an attempt to make him better (cos it makes me potentially worse at my job which is "assembling a patch of doom and keeping things in it")

Slot some mez hamis into sing and between that and gd/crushing field it's a non issue. Gravity sink would be WAY more useful to the set than anything crushing field would do especially if the have it some - Speed as well. The slows plus the pull should be enough to "immob" AVs yoo cause between sing, gd, and cf you can easily floor an Avs speed most of the time. Add in the pull on that slow and even if they slowly try to run the pull would be enough to bring them back.

[Jacke]

6 minutes ago, zenblack said:

There is an entire General forum where there is no requirement to be feedback and such a thread can exist without wasting Dev time by trawling through pages of opinion to get to something usable.

 

Consider the consequences implied.  "The devs don't want to hear opposition and you should just vent where it won't bother them."  That's not good at all.

 

This is a beta issue so commentary should be in the Beta sub-forum.  So I created a separate thread for commentary on the Rune changes so it doesn't detract from Feedback, especially on the other changes.

 

 

[Jimmy]

10 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

No the prior post to that one which was pointing out that the likely dead silence about the change to RoP was because it was getting changed no matter what was being stated by those who question the change to it.

 

[...]

 

Sure get rid of the static if you feel the need but removing on topic conversations only promotes less participation.  

You're completely right. I went back a few more pages and there's definitely some posts which shouldn't have been hidden. It just gets a bit tough to sift through everything when there's constant back-and-forth, so some mistakes have been made with the moderation when people are in a hurry.

 

Rest assured that we do actually read those posts even if they are hidden. I'll try to make sure there's less collateral going forwards.

 

13 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

this topic has been pretty considerate considering how toxic it could get.

If you could see all the hidden posts you'd disagree 🙃

[zenblack]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

 

Consider the consequences implied.  "The devs don't want to hear opposition and you should just vent where it won't bother them."  That's not good at all.

 

This is your own bias speaking not anyone else. They have not said they don't want to hear feedback negative or positive, but people are not providing feedback they are providing opinion, being verbally abusive, making incorrect assumption, demanding more information than has been given, etc. There is a very clear distinction and whether you want to see it or not has nothing to do with this. I'm glad there is another thread for "Commentary" as I myself am not interested in hearing more of the same about RoP when I look to this thread for feedback and new testing parameters.

Edited March 30, 2021 by zenblack
speeling

[Blackbird71]

7 minutes ago, zenblack said:

 

This is your own bias speaking not anyone else. They have not said they don't want to hear feedback negative or positive, but people are not providing feedback they are providing opinion, being verbally abusive, making incorrect assumption, demanding more information than has been given, etc. There is a very clear distinction and whether you want to see it or not has nothing to do with this. I'm glad there is another thread for "Commentary" as I myself am not interested in hearing more of the same about RoP when I look to this thread for feedback and new testing parameters.

The irony of your own posts seems to be lost on you.

[PeregrineFalcon]

7 hours ago, Jimmy said:

However, just because we are reading the feedback, it doesn't mean we are going to be compelled by it. I agree our communication on this change could've been better - we'll work on improving that going forwards.

I understand deleting/hiding posts that attack people.

 

However, if you're not going to pay any attention to our opinions, if you're not going to tell us why you're nerfing a power, if the changes are going to just go live no matter how many people dislike it, then what's the point of even having a feedback thread at all?

 

For me the change to RoP falls in the "whatever, doesn't matter to me" department. A LOT of others clearly feel differently. Why can't you give them a detailed explanation of why you're nerfing RoP? Why "going forward", why not now?

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

 

1 hour ago, Mezmera said:

this topic has been pretty considerate considering how toxic it could get.

If you could see all the hidden posts you'd disagree 🙃

 

Huh. I hope I missed them, because otherwise my toxic filter needs changing. I saw disagreement, but like @Mezmera, I thought it was civil enough.
 

On topic... I love the addition to Singularity. It's a (currently) unique mechanism, and can be quite useful for many characters. However, as already stated by others, it can also be detrimental to OTHER characters. Changing other powers in Gravity could be a lot of work, and this is a unique feature that I'd like to see kept in the Gravity Control set... would it be possible to make the draw radius smaller? If you can fight mobs at a reasonable distance without Singy starting to pull them, then you can still contribute normally while Singy is behind you and not mucking up positioning. And if this ability is actually useful to you, you can always close in and bring Singy into range of its new ability.

 

I'd like to see other pools improved like Teleport was, to make choices better. That would include making other powers in Sorcery better so that RoP isn't the only draw in the pool... but I don't think this is the right update to discuss multiple power changes to multiple pools.

[ForeverLaxx]

8 hours ago, Jimmy said:

I agree our communication on this change could've been better

That's only one problem we, as players, are having here. The other is that it appears that even with feedback that has a directed focus, it doesn't matter what we say unless we agree with the change. RoP is turning into the same case that Energy Melee (I'm aware I was a minority there, admittedly), Nin's Speed Bonus, and Blaster Secondary range "normalization" is: a change that's happening no matter what anyone says about it.

 

Telling us why nerfing a niche pick in a weak Pool, turning it into just another "who cares" power, particularly when compared to the popular, build-defining Pool Powers that builders bend over backwards to include isn't really the issue anymore. The issue now is asking why our feedback even matters on powers you insist on nerfing regardless of what we say. "Compelling enough to change" seems to be an insurmountable bar to clear for certain changes. Why have the discussion at all if the discussion never mattered?

 

If the point of any power not named Hasten, Tough, Weave, Combat Jumping, Maneuvers, Tactics, and Vengeance is to be bad, then just tell us so we can move on.