A modest proposal - Eliminate Sameness by removing the ability to Softcap. (Long)

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

 

This is a super hero game. And the player base made sure everyone knew, right from the start, that they wanted to play SUPER heroes. Not lame heroes that struggle with 3 Hellions, but super duper heroes that lay the smack down on 10 or 12 Hellions all at once.

 

 

That "Super Hero Game" mantra is a cop out.  Seriously,  I wonder how many Super Hero Comics people that use it have even read.  Generally the Heroes do face some challenges.   And in TV shows and Movies the Heroes tend to be LESS powerful than the comic books.  To avoid the whole boring and invincible thing.

 

We aren't complaining about people being able to lay the smack down on 10 or 12 or even 50 even level hellion minions at once, even solo 

 

We are complaining about people being able to smack around multiple spawns of level 54s at once with no support, or even teammates 

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

29 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

That "Super Hero Game" mantra is a cop out.

It's NOT a cop out.

 

There are people who are still mad about ED, and prior to that the characters were even more stupidly powerful than fully IO'd out incarnates are now. People want to play super heroes.

 

If you want more challenge then solo TF's or run Incarnate Trials with your Alpha unslotted. There are ways to challenge yourself and your friends without trying to nerf everyone in the entire game and/or rewrite the entire game system.

 

It's NOT a cop out. People don't want to play Zan and Jana because they're lame. People want to play Superman. If you'd rather be Lame-O the Wonder Clown instead of Homelander then you're playing the wrong game.

[Black Zot]

24 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

That "Super Hero Game" mantra is a cop out.  Seriously,  I wonder how many Super Hero Comics people that use it have even read. 

 

 

Enough to know that no superhero worth his cape is going to be more than inconvenienced by any non-named adversary.  It doesn't matter how allegedly tough a given faction's mooks are, they're still mooks, and the title character or team of the comic/movie/whathaveyou is going to go through them like a hot knife through butter.  That's how the genre works - you're either a major character in the story or you're there to get curbstomped by the major characters.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

Enough to know that no superhero worth his cape is going to be more than inconvenienced by any non-named adversary.  It doesn't matter how allegedly tough a given faction's mooks are, they're still mooks, and the title character or team of the comic/movie/whathaveyou is going to go through them like a hot knife through butter.  That's how the genre works - you're either a major character in the story or you're there to get curbstomped by the major characters.

 

Then just make all the Minions level 1, why bother with stats at all?

 

I personally prefer something like this - 

 

 

 

But I'm cool meeting in the middle somewhere. 

[Black Zot]

Just now, Haijinx said:

 

Then just make all the Minions level 1, why bother with stats at all?

 

 

You certainly have a lot of fun swinging away at that strawman.

[Haijinx]

8 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

It's NOT a cop out.

 

There are people who are still mad about ED, and prior to that the characters were even more stupidly powerful than fully IO'd out incarnates are now. People want to play super heroes.

 

If you want more challenge then solo TF's or run Incarnate Trials with your Alpha unslotted. There are ways to challenge yourself and your friends without trying to nerf everyone in the entire game and/or rewrite the entire game system.

 

It's NOT a cop out. People don't want to play Zan and Jana because they're lame. People want to play Superman. If you'd rather be Lame-O the Wonder Clown instead of Homelander then you're playing the wrong game.

 

Except I am not trying to nerf anyone, nor rewrite the entire game system.  I think it needs rewritten, sure, but that's different than trying to get that to happen.  I know it won't . 

 

I've already conceded.  Left the field.  I'm done making suggestions to make things more challenging.

 

But that doesn't mean I'm going to let people Gaslight all day long saying how great everything is.  The game is broken.  As a game.  Which is what I was responding to.  

 

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

You certainly have a lot of fun swinging away at that strawman.

 

I wasn't making a strawman.  I was asking you a question.  If you want minions to pose no challenge, then why bother with them having stats? 

[Black Zot]

Just now, Haijinx said:

 

I wasn't making a strawman.  I was asking you a question.  If you want minions to pose no challenge, then why bother with them having stats? 

 

You were making a goddamn strawman, and it's not the first time.  It's also not the first time you've argued in favor of nerfs while claiming not to.  You have no business accusing anyone else in this thread of gaslighting.

[AerialAssault]

I think the end-game has certainly reached it's limits, but to say it is broken is a simplification of the situation.

 

There's still plenty of challenge in the game, unfortunately, most of that is in the 1-40 range. While we do have Ouroboros, it's very rarely convenient or conductive to be able to organise random groups with. I think making more content 'backwards compatible', so to speak, by allowing you to play arcs & missions for contacts you have out-leveled without having to trapise to Ouroboros would go far. The Night Ward arcs certainly have a higher bar of entry than their City of Heroes/Villain counterparts. I don't see many groups advertising doing Night Ward arcs.

 

Unfortunately, I think by and large, people are not seeking this content out because they do not want to be challenged. This is fine. I sometimes feel like that myself, particularly after a long day of work. The last thing I want to do is get continually pile-drived by the game when I'm trying to relax, because I don't find that relaxing. City of Heroes is great like that because I can choose to be pile-drived, or I can choose to do something more relaxing. If the ability to do that was taken away or changed because someone found my idea of relaxation not 'the true way the game should be played' I'd probably close my account and never look back. And I suspect many others would as well.

 

[Voltak]

6 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

There is a difference between making content that can hammer any build or team and an internally consistent game system.  You are discussing the former.  

 

COH barely had the latter when it was just SO's with GDN and ED.   But even on SOs you can abuse that system with Support of a myriad of types (even just leadership spam, if there's enough of it.) 

 

Works both ways.  There is a difference between making a Build that can totally smash any normal content, and that build really fitting into the game system.  Back on live economics kept the really extreme IO builds in check to an extent.  At least for a while.   And the more extreme sets like TW were behind a paywall and weren't around all that long anyway.  

1.  I am not discussing the former.  
I am discussing the issue that the OP is suggesting the WRONG solution to a naturally occurring problem with every game of this nature
where gear or team composition is acquired or achieved and takes on challenges presented by the game and the challenges then look too easy.  
The right solution is not to nerf what is already in placed as intended, as designed, as demonstrated in every other game
with this same type of system --->
present higher challenges without nerfing what already attainable via hard work and lots of playing or whatever. 

2.  If game content looks easy because the team composition is just right or ideal, then you are
wrong to say that you can abuse that system with such a team make up. 

The correct term is that the team/the game is playing exactly as intended.  

This is consistent with just about any other game that relies on gear and team composition to tackle challenging content. 

That's not abuse.  That's playing the game as intended.  

3. STOP advocating for nerfs to the rewards already achieved via gear or higher levels of progress. 

4.  Start advocating for new challenges that can present a challenge to those new levels of achieved power 

5.  Players right now can do # 4.  

6. If players can do it, so can the Devs.  
 

[Andreah]

1 minute ago, AerialAssault said:

City of Heroes is great like that because I can choose to be pile-drived, or I can choose to do something more relaxing.

I concur with this. 

 

And this is why I like the notoriety system, and would be fine with it being tweaked or extended to offer a greater range of difficulty.  That might mean the effective softcap in some content is higher, but no one would be forced to run that content at that difficulty if they didn't want to. 

[Voltak]

1 minute ago, Andreah said:

I concur with this. 

 

And this is why I like the notoriety system, and would be fine with it being tweaked or extended to offer a greater range of difficulty.  That might mean the effective softcap in some content is higher, but no one would be forced to run that content at that difficulty if they didn't want to. 

If the notoriety option is to nerf players and their acquired gear, gear designed to work as intended, then that is the wrong solution, and, in fact, pretty lazy or inconsistent with what successful games do when faced with the situation I wrote about in my post above.  


The right solution is to present more challenging content.   

Players can already do this shift to difficulty. 

AE can present some real challenges to any build with any type of IO sets or bonuses WITHOUT ALTERING the notoriety system at all -- ZERO 

[PeregrineFalcon]

25 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

But that doesn't mean I'm going to let people Gaslight all day long saying how great everything is.  The game is broken.  As a game.  Which is what I was responding to.

No. I'm sure that you're not trying to nerf everyone, but the OP is. It is the suggestion in the OP that I was attacking, not you. To be fair though, I don't believe that anyone's trying to gaslight anyone. We just don't agree with the suggestion in the OP, and we don't want to see it come to pass.

 

Sorry if you felt like I was attacking or gaslighting you. Peace.

[Voltak]

9 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

No. I'm sure that you're not trying to nerf everyone, but the OP is. It is the suggestion in the OP that I was attacking, not you. To be fair though, I don't believe that anyone's trying to gaslight anyone. We just don't agree with the suggestion in the OP, and we don't want to see it come to pass.

 

Sorry if you felt like I was attacking or gaslighting you. Peace.

This is exactly my feeling 

I agree 100% with @PeregrineFalcon

I also wanted to bring out some facts that challenges even some of the feelings about IO sets, bonuses, and defense soft caps acquired via IOs --->

Soft cap defenses already mean little or nothing with faced with Devouring Earth and other critters

Go ahead, place your soft cap character at +4 x 8 vs Devouring Earth, watch those evil little things
get placed on the ground and tell me how your soft capped defenses saved your hide.   

Even Nemesis, when the vengeance has stacked, if they will hit my Widow which has defenses
FAR FAR above the soft cap, and they can be a problem/challenge, especially at +4 x 8. 


To all perma doms -  try going against Malta, some Malta bosses, SOME, will not be held even during Domination
on your first attempt to hold them.  I have verified this over and over.  
Malta again, some bosses will shoot right through your soft cap defenses and hit hard. 

I can go and on. 

The game has challenges and I know that even years ago fully geared players treaded very carefully vs those challenges in the game
or they avoided them all together at +4 x 8  when soloing.  

So, again, infuse the game with challenges, NOT nerfs to the players or their gear.  

That's the correct solution. 
 

[Hew]

On 3/26/2021 at 7:00 AM, parabola said:

Perhaps the Mohs scale could be employed?

Hahaha Mohs scale. 😄

My corundum has something to say to your carborundum.

[Pzn]

41 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

I think the end-game has certainly reached it's limits, but to say it is broken is a simplification of the situation.

 

There's still plenty of challenge in the game, unfortunately, most of that is in the 1-40 range. While we do have Ouroboros, it's very rarely convenient or conductive to be able to organise random groups with. I think making more content 'backwards compatible', so to speak, by allowing you to play arcs & missions for contacts you have out-leveled without having to trapise to Ouroboros would go far. The Night Ward arcs certainly have a higher bar of entry than their City of Heroes/Villain counterparts. I don't see many groups advertising doing Night Ward arcs.

 

Unfortunately, I think by and large, people are not seeking this content out because they do not want to be challenged. This is fine. I sometimes feel like that myself, particularly after a long day of work. The last thing I want to do is get continually pile-drived by the game when I'm trying to relax, because I don't find that relaxing. City of Heroes is great like that because I can choose to be pile-drived, or I can choose to do something more relaxing. If the ability to do that was taken away or changed because someone found my idea of relaxation not 'the true way the game should be played' I'd probably close my account and never look back. And I suspect many others would as well.

 

The biggest obstacle I have towards running this kind of content through ouroboros is the task force structure of flashback arcs.  People don't want to commit to the entire arc and start dropping off before the finish, or are hesitant to join through ouroboros to begin with.  It's much easier to fill a mission team at any level with a regular contact.

[Haijinx]

52 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

You were making a goddamn strawman, and it's not the first time.  It's also not the first time you've argued in favor of nerfs while claiming not to.  You have no business accusing anyone else in this thread of gaslighting.

 

I'd say I'm in favor of the idea of nerfs in the general sense, or in buffing enemies in the general sense.  Probably the latter.  But Its pointless since it will never happen.  No nerf is going to get implemented that is anything more than noise in the balance of this game sense.

 

As to the strawman thing.  If you need to use "goddamn", I think that discussion is over.  Think what you want.  It doesn't matter. 

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

Except I am not trying to nerf anyone, nor rewrite the entire game system.  I think it needs rewritten, sure, but that's different than trying to get that to happen.  I know it won't . 

 

I've already conceded.  Left the field.  I'm done making suggestions to make things more challenging.

 

But that doesn't mean I'm going to let people Gaslight all day long saying how great everything is.  The game is broken.  As a game.  Which is what I was responding to.  

 

 

 

The funny thing is that every single COH server allows you to softcap, even the ones where the easier changes like VET levels giving you emps and threads, don't exist.

 

I'm yet to find even one where softcapping was removed. That tells me something about what what many COH players prefer.

 

They like where COH is as a game. Call it broken or not but folks wouldn't be here playing this decade old game, if they didn't find it fun.

 

You know fun . . . what a game is supposed to be?

 

I think in all these argument threads, that's something that both sides fail to accept: what's fun for you may certainly may not be fun for me. (I'm also guilty as charged in forgetting that sometimes.)

 

People know it's broken and  . . . don't care. When they stop having fun, then they'll care.

 

For example you may find teams that are dead quiet and don't say anything fun and relaxing after a long day. I may want banter. Both are fun and equally valid.

 

It's why I always advocate for options to make the game harder for those folks that want that. They can turn them on and lead their own teams, with like minded folks.

Edited March 30, 2021 by golstat2003

[Haijinx]

15 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

People know it's broken and  . . . don't care. When they stop having fun, then they'll care.

 

 

I believe this is true.

 

I also think that a certain number that claim its not broken know intellectually that it is.   At least from a Mechanics sense.  

 

I think the ones who stop having fun grouse for a little bit.  Maybe even start threads like this one.   Eventually they give up trying to do anything to "fix" things.  Then leave.   I find it interesting one of the main flames thrown at those who want more challenge is that they are vastly outnumbered and thus their opinion is not useful.  Then at the same time claim there are too many of these threads.  

[Troo]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I find it interesting one of the main flames thrown at those who want more challenge is that they are vastly outnumbered and thus their opinion is not useful. 

Then at the same time claim there are too many of these threads.  

 

excellent points

[Coyotedancer]

People who are fine as-is rarely make threads complaining about how awful everything is. 

[Giovanni Valia]

Not that it matters here on homecoming, but cake server has increased difficulty options. You can scale missions up to +6x16. So yeah, it's that easy.

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Giovanni Valia

[Voltak]

3 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

 

The funny thing is that every single COH server allows you to softcap, even the ones where the easier changes like VET levels giving you emps and threads, don't exist.

 

I'm yet to find even one where softcapping was removed. That tells me something about what what many COH players prefer.

 

They like where COH is as a game. Call it broken or not but folks wouldn't be here playing this decade old game, if they didn't find it fun.

 

You know fun . . . what a game is supposed to be?

 

I think in all these argument threads, that's something that both sides fail to accept: what's fun for you may certainly may not be fun for me. (I'm also guilty as charged in forgetting that sometimes.)

 

People know it's broken and  . . . don't care. When they stop having fun, then they'll care.

 

For example you may find teams that are dead quiet and don't say anything fun and relaxing after a long day. I may want banter. Both are fun and equally valid.

 

It's why I always advocate for options to make the game harder for those folks that want that. They can turn them on and lead their own teams, with like minded folks.

I agree with the sentiment and I also agree that tastes vary 

I agree even more that over 10 years with the game and the game is still way better FOR ME than other games 




having said that ..

If the game/gear has become powerful and players are powerful ...

THE CORRECT SOLUTION as done by other games, even the most successful of all games or MMOs, is to introduce new and more challenging content

The incorrect thing to do is to nerf the players or their gear which is so loved and took a lot of work or time to get 







Right now players have already in game solutions to seek challenges vs IOs and their sets 

Right now there are critters to counter defense or permanent dom and so on and I mentioned only a few samples, not all of them 

So the OP is wrong, he or she is just wrong. 

The solution proposed is wrong 

He or she is not realizing the other challenges that can cope with IOs that already exist in the game 

He  or she is not advocating for newer or added content to present more challenges WITHOUT nerfing what already exists 

 

[Voltak]

7 minutes ago, Giovanni Valia said:

Not that it matters here on homecoming, but cake server has increased difficulty options. You can scale missions up to +6x16. So yeah, it's that easy.

 

And that was done ...... --> WITHOUT NERFING gear or the characters or power sets or builds 

That's my point 

That's one of the correct ways to approach the issue, exactly what I have been saying 

[Parabola]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

I believe this is true.

 

I also think that a certain number that claim its not broken know intellectually that it is.   At least from a Mechanics sense.  

 

I think the ones who stop having fun grouse for a little bit.  Maybe even start threads like this one.   Eventually they give up trying to do anything to "fix" things.  Then leave.   I find it interesting one of the main flames thrown at those who want more challenge is that they are vastly outnumbered and thus their opinion is not useful.  Then at the same time claim there are too many of these threads.  

Yes indeed. I've certainly become massively disillusioned with these arguments as it seems obvious to me that they are heavily influenced by broader views and we are never all going to agree. Both sides are utterly convinced they are right. Both sides mystified by the others refusal to see what is obvious to them. And both sides essentially feeling the other is being selfish; one side feeling the other refuse to accept any sacrifice for the good of all, and the other feeling they are being dictated to, to no good end. It all sounds so painfully and sadly familiar...

 

I want teaming to work better at higher levels. I feel there are systemic problems in the game that are creating problems with teaming at high levels. And I feel it would be in everyones interest to address those problems. But yes, I've pretty much given up.