Instant Healing: why hasn't it been reverted to a toggle yet?

[Troo]

On 4/3/2021 at 7:27 PM, GM Kaiju said:

Removed several off topic and non value added posts. Stay on topic please and do not post memes or emoji replies.

 

Umm, this is not the focused feedback section of the forum. Heightened levels of moderation can be indicators of things in the works.. which should be cause for alarm to anyone who currently plays regeneration and likes it.

 

As to @BioFlame question: Instant Healing: why hasn't it been reverted to a toggle yet?

Which version of the power would you like to see? There have been a number of them.

[LEUGIM6]

On 4/7/2021 at 11:09 PM, Troo said:

 

Umm, this is not the focused feedback section of the forum. Heightened levels of moderation can be indicators of things in the works.. which should be cause for alarm to anyone who currently plays regeneration and likes it.

 

As to @BioFlame question: Instant Healing: why hasn't it been reverted to a toggle yet?

Which version of the power would you like to see? There have been a number of them.

 

 

Which version?

The toggle version. It should be a toggle like it was before Statesman nerfed it into the ground.

 

Probably couldn't be used with MOG, obviously. And I'd start cautiously, keeping the 600% non-enhanceable, only 200% enh.

And then tweak as needed.

[Twisted Toon]

On 4/7/2021 at 5:09 PM, Troo said:

As to @BioFlame question: Instant Healing: why hasn't it been reverted to a toggle yet?

Which version of the power would you like to see? There have been a number of them.

 

3 hours ago, BioFlame said:

 

 

Which version?

The toggle version. It should be a toggle like it was before Statesman nerfed it into the ground.

 

Probably couldn't be used with MOG, obviously. And I'd start cautiously, keeping the 600% non-enhanceable, only 200% enh.

And then tweak as needed.

Which version of the toggle "version" is what Troo was asking.

There had been several tweaks to IH long before it was changed to a click.

 

[Troo]

4 hours ago, BioFlame said:

The toggle version. It should be a toggle like it was before Statesman nerfed it into the ground.

 

Yes I understood that part. As Twisted mentioned, there were versions of the IH toggle some of which could have been over or under powered based on opinion.

 

I would be happy with an improvement or two to individual Regeneration power values...

But frankly, don't want open pandora's box to the current 'dev/player in-crowd which is deciding changes'. Some of whom have already shown some level of not understanding the set, a desire to drastically overhaul it, and/or tunnel vision for tuning things with preference to 'end game' (which doesn't exist), min/max level builds, and pylon times while ignoring the other 90% of the game.

 

If you want your toggle suggestion to be considered (not by me but by those who count) , it would need to be more specific.

[archgemini24]

33 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Yes I understood that part. As Twisted mentioned, there were versions of the IH toggle some of which could have been over or under powered based on opinion.

 

I would be happy with an improvement or two to individual Regeneration power values...

But frankly, don't want open pandora's box to the current 'dev/player in-crowd which is deciding changes'. Some of whom have already shown some level of not understanding the set, a desire to drastically overhaul it, and/or tunnel vision for tuning things with preference to 'end game' (which doesn't exist), min/max level builds, and pylon times while ignoring the other 90% of the game.

 

If you want your toggle suggestion to be considered (not by me but by those who count) , it would need to be more specific.

 

Fair point, and somewhere in my head I got the (potentially bad) idea to use Willpower's Rise to the Challenge as a parity point. If it was as strong as fully-saturated RttC, and didn't have the To-hit debuff (it could have Regen debuff resistance instead), it would be useful, and would not to have IH's original (kind of obnoxious) values. Or we could start further bumping its cost instead of being the relatively cheap 0.21end/sec for numbers closer to the original. Maybe bump its cost, anyway, since it is a no-risk version. If we cannot get Regen debuff resistance, a portion completely unaffected by buffs, debuffs, and enhancements would ensure that Regen is never completely without its secondary.

Initial Toggle IH was strong, but I remember it being very expensive. I want to say the common practice was that Quick Recovery covered the cost of Instant Healing + 1 other toggle (usually Integration). A new iteration could be not as strong, but much cheaper.

 

Personally, a win for me would look like the power was cut in half (to 400% from 800%) with a more enhanceable portion (250/150 instead of 600/200), given a small, refreshing absorb portion, and cost somewhere in the ballpark of twice-as-much as RttC (.42end/s). Maybe that is giving up too much, but it would certainly see more use from me than it does in its current iteration, which is often on the order of "too-good-to-use" because its uptime is meh.

[Sarrate]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

I would be happy with an improvement or two to individual Regeneration power values...

But frankly, don't want open pandora's box to the current 'dev/player in-crowd which is deciding changes'. Some of whom have already shown some level of not understanding the set, a desire to drastically overhaul it, and/or tunnel vision for tuning things with preference to 'end game' (which doesn't exist), min/max level builds, and pylon times while ignoring the other 90% of the game.

 

I'm curious what you mean by the underlined text. It sounds like "if you don't like the way the set currently is, then you don't understand it."

 

If that is the case (and correct me if I'm wrong), that sounds narrow minded. It's entirely possible for people to see the set, understand how it works, but think "I think it would be better if they did X." It could be to adjust power ("this will increase survivability by X in Y situations), or it could be a flavor thing ("I want to regenerate, not be a self empath"). It's also equally valid for someone to say "I played it while IH was a toggle, and I like that version better."

 

Just because someone wants to change the set, doesn't mean they don't understand it. I mean, you argue that people shouldn't try to balance for a small subsection of content (I agree), but then you basically cut out anyone whose opinion doesn't match yours. That feels extremely contradictory.

 

Note: I'm not saying your view of Regen is invalid, it's just as valid as anyone else's. If you enjoy current Regen, I understand a change to satisfy someone else could affect your enjoyment of the set. That's not because someone "doesn't get it," or they're maliciously trying to hamper your fun [1], just they have a different view.

 

 

[1] Okay, some people might, but I think we can both agree that people intentionally ruining others' fun aren't cool. :)

[Troo]

41 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

I'm curious what you mean by the underlined text. It sounds like "if you don't like the way the set currently is, then you don't understand it."

 

That's fair but not what was intended.

 

Folks don't have to like everything. I dislike kenetic melee and am either not interested in using it as other do successfully or I don't understand it.

 

I tried to be clear that the statement was referring to folks who had demonstrated "some level of not understanding the set".

Example: If I said Super Reflexes should have much more Resistance to all and should be overhauled significantly to do that.. What would @Sarrate you call it?

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Troo

[KauaiJim]

On 4/7/2021 at 3:09 PM, Troo said:

As to @BioFlame question: Instant Healing: why hasn't it been reverted to a toggle yet?

Which version of the power would you like to see? There have been a number of them.

 

Valid question.  I don't think most folks know it was killed slowly and painfully.  I think a lot of folks think one day they just changed the main power from a toggle to a click and they think flipping 'that' back will do it.  The were lots of other changes too however so very valid question.

 

After thinking about it, Anything they can do that would make me think of picking it over say WP (or anything else, lol).  I would LIKE to play regen again if it wasn't a button clicking whack-a-mole set.  I don't mind the concept of regen requiring a bit more attention but to me it doesn't fit with what a certain X-man would do.  He does stop attacking while he whips out a first aid kit and patches himself up.  He does stop attacking to meditate and focus on his healing, it just happens.  It was fun.  Granted, overpowered and in need of adjusting.  But fun.  There was a reason to choose it.  Look. I LOVE the energy sets too, but I would be lying if I didn't admit they felt weaker than most other sets (until recently).  Just give regen ANY little bump.  Anything.  Something.  A nudge.  I'll take a flipping placebo even.  Lie to me and tell me it's all better now.  Whatever...  Just make me want to pick it.  ☺️

[RCU7115]

I say we ask someone with personal knowledge about regeneration.

"Hey Logan, did you click Instant Healing when Magneto ripped out that adamantium from you  ?"

[Sarrate]

6 hours ago, Troo said:

That's fair but not what was intended.

In that case, sorry I mischaracterized what you said.

 

6 hours ago, Troo said:

I tried to be clear that the statement was referring to folks who had demonstrated "some level of not understanding the set".

Example: If I said Super Reflexes should have much more Resistance to all and should be overhauled significantly to do that.. What would @Sarrate you call it?

I suspect you're expecting me to say something along the lines of "it's misguided" or "that misses the point of the set."

 

However, I feel like there is a lot of context missing in your example. Going back in time, SR used to be almost exclusively +Def (it had PB for status protection, Quickness for +Rech/Speed, and Elude providing +Rec as all T9s of the day did). It did not have defense debuff resistance, it did not have scaling resistance. Even when soft capped, SR had significant problems. If someone were to look at SR back then and say, "hey, SR has some survivability issues, why not get some extra resistance at lower life, say they're moving faster/slowing down time." Under those circumstances, does adding resistance make sense?

 

SR has always been the premiere +def set, why would you want resistance? If you want Res and Def, why not use Invuln?

 

I bring this up because I seem to remember you being against Regen getting +absorb because that's Bio's niche. (I could be misremembering, it's been a while.) Other's have said "hey, if you want a set that's more +regen focused, you should use Willpower" (despite the fact it was Regen's niche to lose). Just as SR had issues that "more defense" wouldn't have solved, I think Regen has issues "more healing" won't solve.

 

Does it need to be reworked from the ground up? Not necessarily. Does it need to add some other tool to its toolkit? I'd argue, yes. I don't think that's trying to overhaul it into something its not.

 

I'm not sure if that answers your question, or not.

[Troo]

12 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

I'm not sure if that answers your question, or not.

 

That's on par with what I could expect.

 

I don't know much about Bio so I don't think that was me. (but I was likely in the conversation so that's okay by proximity)

 

16 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

Just as SR had issues that "more defense" wouldn't have solved, I think Regen has issues "more healing" won't solve.

 

Has SR ever had it's Def nerfed? Nerfed more than once?

 

18 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

I'd argue, yes. I don't think that's trying to overhaul it into something its not.

 

Appreciated.

 

..and apologies for the multi-quoting here.

[SaintD]

Every set with a singular focus should, like /SR, have massive debuff resist for that focus.

 

Trying to debuff regen against...Regen...should be practically impossible. -res against /Elec and /Dark should be a terrible idea, etc.

[Leogunner]

On 4/3/2021 at 11:44 PM, Heraclea said:

I never played Regen during its heyday and have no personal memory of how it used to play.  I very much doubt that it is the best tanking set in the game.  I made a staff/regen brute with the specific intention of making that one a tanking brute.  It kinda sorta works, after cleaning out the base of defense bonus IOs, but it still wouldn't be the brute I'd take to a master run. 

 

My longstanding suggestion is: if you're going to offer players an armor set with zero defense, paltry resistances outside of a 15 second interval, and a bunch of click heals on different timers, it needs to have the ability to do its different thing preserved.  Regen should offer solid resistance to the point of practical immunity to -heal, -HP, -recharge, -end, and endurance draining.  These buffs would not be game breaking outside of content that's broken already.  Their only effect would be to allow regen to use its click heals and buffs, whose benefits are too often debuffed away in some game content. 

Curious if you came up with that suggestion organically or if you heard it from other posters.

 

It's been so long, I can't even remember if I read someone else suggest it or if I was just tossing out random niche changes for Regen and grew a liking to that particular idea.

 

But like I was saying in other threads, I feel the set's concept isn't "Wolverine" regeneration (that is now WP) but rather damage immunity.  The closest analogy I could think of is cartoon damage negation, like dropping a piano on Tom's head, crush him, his teeth are replaced with piano keys then he shakes his head and suddenly is back to (almost) normal within a few frames.  On a concept level, people that want passive regen should be playing Willpower as Regen's concept is and should be different.  On that train of thought, it needs debuff resistance (maybe scale it with your clicks so the more you click, the more you resist).  Giving it scaling resistance to -rech, -movement, -END, -regen and -def would be a strong change that would make the set particularly strong when paired with a team.

[Heraclea]

2 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Curious if you came up with that suggestion organically or if you heard it from other posters.

 

It's been so long, I can't even remember if I read someone else suggest it or if I was just tossing out random niche changes for Regen and grew a liking to that particular idea.

 

But like I was saying in other threads, I feel the set's concept isn't "Wolverine" regeneration (that is now WP) but rather damage immunity.  The closest analogy I could think of is cartoon damage negation, like dropping a piano on Tom's head, crush him, his teeth are replaced with piano keys then he shakes his head and suddenly is back to (almost) normal within a few frames.  On a concept level, people that want passive regen should be playing Willpower as Regen's concept is and should be different.  On that train of thought, it needs debuff resistance (maybe scale it with your clicks so the more you click, the more you resist).  Giving it scaling resistance to -rech, -movement, -END, -regen and -def would be a strong change that would make the set particularly strong when paired with a team.

I don't remember, because it's something I've been saying since Victory days.  It is likely that someone else came up with the suggestion and it just 'clicked'.  It does seem the way to buff Regen while keeping it the same set it developed into in the end, as an armor set that works and plays differently from all of the others. 

[arcane]

Last time regen’s weakness came up I hadn’t played one since early live days. Now that I have an ice/regen brute I’m afraid to say I see no problems with the set.

[HelBlaiz]

My biggest issues with the set come down to delayed effects and long cooldowns. I dont think I'm the only one who thinks the heal for Reconstructuion needs to hit as soon as possible after hitting the button. Keep the animation time the same, but don't delay the heal until its halfway done. As for the cooldowns, I have a habit of not wanting to click IH because I might 'need it later' and the cooldown is long enough that using it on a fight you dont need hurts just as much as what I usually do, which is hope I dont need it, realize I do need it, and activate it too late.

 

I'm sure with IOs and all the +rech in the world the powers work just fine, but my IO usage is predominantly on my fire farmer to help rund my other characters SO budget.

[Sarrate]

19 hours ago, Troo said:

That's on par with what I could expect.

 

I don't know much about Bio so I don't think that was me. (but I was likely in the conversation so that's okay by proximity)

Geeze, that makes me 0 for 2, so I'm not exactly demonstrating a stellar memory, here...

 

19 hours ago, Troo said:

Has SR ever had it's Def nerfed? Nerfed more than once?

Hmm, I don't think so. The only nerf I'm remembering was part of the GDN. Although, in hind sight, it was kind of a buff in disguise. Before that, everything was +ToHit (purple patch and ranks weren't accuracy, so there was no "soft cap").

 

19 hours ago, Troo said:

..and apologies for the multi-quoting here.

I never realized there was anything wrong with multi-quoting, unless the intent was to take something out of context (which I don't think you were).

[Troo]

8 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

Geeze, that makes me 0 for 2, so I'm not exactly demonstrating a stellar memory, here...

 

You have pretty darn spot on and show a superior memory to mine. I can only say "I don't think that was me".

[arcane]

20 hours ago, Troo said:

Has SR ever had it's Def nerfed? Nerfed more than once?

Not exactly, but it hasn't had it perfectly easy. Back in '04/'05 my brother was running a perma-Elude scrapper and he lost interest pretty quick once they nerfed perma-T9's. And then you have to consider that, before IO's (when all the aforementioned Regen nerfs were happening, so, seems relevant), they needed that much more to cap defense without Elude - probably Weave, etc. And then after you've considered that, I believe the scaling resistance (pretty much the only reason SR can keep up in the current meta) wasn't added until much later, too, right? So SR has not always had it all that great, unless my memory is faulty here.

Edited April 11, 2021 by arcane

[Sarrate]

39 minutes ago, arcane said:

Not exactly, but it hasn't had it perfectly easy. Back in '04/'05 my brother was running a perma-Elude scrapper and he lost interest pretty quick once they nerfed perma-T9's. And then you have to consider that, before IO's (when all the aforementioned Regen nerfs were happening, so, seems relevant), they needed that much more to cap defense without Elude - probably Weave, etc. And then after you've considered that, I believe the scaling resistance (pretty much the only reason SR can keep up in the current meta) wasn't added until much later, too, right? So SR has not always had it all that great, unless my memory is faulty here.

Looks like perma-T9s was changed in Issue 4 (https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_4)

 

> Changed Moment of Glory, Elude, and Light Form to have a Duration of 180 seconds and a base recharge time of 1000 seconds. This prevents these powers from being 'Permanent', making it comparable to Unstoppable.

 

The Global Defense Nerf (GDN) happened in Issue 5 (https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Global_Defense_Nerf, https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2005-08-31#Powers_-_Global_Defense_Decrease).

 

Enhancement Diversification (ED) happened in Issue 6 (https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Enhancement_Diversification, https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2005-10-27#Enhancement_Diversification).

 

And the addition of the scaling resists also happened in Issue 6 (https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2005-10-27#Powers)

 

> Super Reflexes Auto powers now add some minor damage resistance that improves as the caster loses HP.

[kiramon]

I tried regen once on homecoming, with a fully IOd character.

 

I remade it a week later with electric

Edited April 12, 2021 by kiramon

[arcane]

13 hours ago, Sarrate said:

Looks like perma-T9s was changed in Issue 4 (https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_4)

 

> Changed Moment of Glory, Elude, and Light Form to have a Duration of 180 seconds and a base recharge time of 1000 seconds. This prevents these powers from being 'Permanent', making it comparable to Unstoppable.

 

The Global Defense Nerf (GDN) happened in Issue 5 (https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Global_Defense_Nerf, https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2005-08-31#Powers_-_Global_Defense_Decrease).

 

Enhancement Diversification (ED) happened in Issue 6 (https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Enhancement_Diversification, https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2005-10-27#Enhancement_Diversification).

 

And the addition of the scaling resists also happened in Issue 6 (https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2005-10-27#Powers)

 

> Super Reflexes Auto powers now add some minor damage resistance that improves as the caster loses HP.

I really thought the passive resists came even later so that’s not too bad. But yeah, also remember that you needed pool powers to cap defense until IO’s came out. Was i9 IO’s or was i9 purple/PvP IO’s? Was something like that.

[TheZag]

I played regen back in the day and i felt like a super hero.  Then there was a pair of nerfs and i felt like a hero - still fun but not as powerful.  And that last round of nerfs made my regen feel like im playing a sidekick.  I only had 2 lvl 50 at the time and i completely stopped playing 1 of them.

 

Some people are happy with regen how it is now and some arent.  I feel like im playing City of Sidekicks with regen.  For me that doesnt mean IH must be a toggle. But to give it another shot,  regen would need some sort of rework.

[Verfall]

I personally feel frustrated that my stone/bio brute, IOed for resists and soft capped defenses, has higher regen in offensive mode than my regen sentinel who is IOed out for as much regen as possible. Now I understand that HP comes into play, but should it matter so much that a set of mixed defenses can beat a set who has a singular focus without the former focusing on doing that?

 

Every regen set on every AT should at base SO levels be able to match or honestly beat any regen on any other powerset, including fully IOed out ones.

 

I believe that the regen from Bio should be reduced and the defenses increased, possibly adding some DDR if possible. I've never liked willpowers regen mechanic, but I don't know the set well enough to truly comment.

 

With IO's my Invul tank can match and sometimes surpass my Invul tank from Issue 1.

 

With IO's regen scrappers should be able to get pretty damn close to their Issue 1 selves.

 

I'm not a regen fanboy in any shape or form, but the set does not do what its advertised to do.  It definitely does not match up with the "superhero regen" that we see in comics in a way that I feel is close enough, as others have stated as well.

[Glacier Peak]

From what I have been reading the past few pages, the preferred AT to play a regen powerset on is Sentinels - if that is the case, does anyone have an example of a top tier / high end */Regen build for Sentinels? My experience with the regeneration powerset is archaic - I used it back on live before the nerfs folks have discussed in the thread, when it was a toggle. I tried it out again once CoV was released on a Stalker. It is a fun set, so I am curious how a great regen build on a Sentinel stands out compared to my previous experience; only problem being I don't have a comparable build for that. So, yeah if anyone out there has a high-end */Regen Sentinel build laying around, feel free to DM or post in this thread 😁