Sorcery Pool Updates in Issue 27, Page 2

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I used to main Empathy from 2004-2010 and always thought it made no sense that I could give someone else a power-boosted fortitude or a clear mind but not myself

It makes perfect sense. The set is called Empathy. It’s explicitly about buffing and healing Others, primarily.

[Cheli]

12 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Kin being able to SB themselves? Anyone who can't see why that would be OP is either oblivious or being disingenuous.

Speed Boost has a 2s cooldown and 120s duration, meaning it's pitifully easy to maintain 100% uptime on an entire team. 7 people other than the kin having it isn't overpowered, but the kin having it is?

 

Kin corruptors can already fulcrum shift+soul drain too, putting them well over +dmg% cap, something that isn't gonna change unless you now want to start targeting good synergy between power choices. Is that something we should be looking at?

[Riverdusk]

17 hours ago, Mezmera said:

 

Time?  They let powerboosted Time self buffs be a thing... 

 

Couldn't have added a smidge of resistance into that defense self buff power so it didn't get abused by powerboosting?  

 

Do we play the same game?  There's all kinds of self buffing + team buffing support sets. 

 

Pretty sure I've seen a dev post where it's been stated powerboost's affecting +def buffs is another thing they are "looking at".

 

I've already started to build around that going away on all my /time characters, not something I'm counting on lasting.

[Carnifax]

13 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

Pretty sure I've seen a dev post where it's been stated powerboost's affecting +def buffs is another thing they are "looking at".

 

I've already started to build around that going away on all my /time characters, not something I'm counting on lasting.

Well they did look at it previously and Fade got unaffected by PB. They could be planning it more broadly, but I'd bet if they did it'd probably need to be hand in hand with a general Forcefield pass (to reduce the sting and because let's face it FF needs a pass).

[Jimmy]

This is going a little off the rails.

 

This thread is to discuss Sorcery, not.... the dozen other random topics in here 🙂

[DreadShinobi]

17 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

Allowing ally buffs to be used on oneself would be OP in many cases. Not necessarily all, but many... Empathy as a self-buffing set would give Empathy defenders the Regeneration of Regen Scrappers... plus mez protection, huge +Recovery and good +Defense. That's probably the most OP s

 

17 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Kin being able to SB themselves? Anyone who can't see why that would be OP is either oblivious or being disingenuous.

Speed boost is a great power because it can be cast on everyone with no cooldown. Its actual numbers arent all that high. Kinetics already get immense access to +rchg from siphon speed, unlimited endurance from transference, and capped unsuppresses movespeed from siphon speed. The overall impact from being able to receive the speed boost effect on oneself wouldnt be such a world of difference compared to the effect it has on everyone else that don't have access to kinetics inherent tools. Also fulcrum shift is what makes kinetics the powerhouse of a set that it is, not speed boost.

 

In terms of things like adrenaline boost or painbringer, it is a single ally buff. If you cast it on yourself you don't have it available to cast on anyone else, who likely will benefit alot more from it, whether by access to higher hp cap, higher damage modifiers, or more potent long cooldown powers worth buffing the recharge on.

 

I already have strong opinions that mez protection is not something that should be a heavy tax for certain archetypes while others 100% ignore most interactions with enemy factions meant to make them feel any different than fighting a council spawn. Self casting clear mind on an empathy defender, or making it a pbaoe buff that affects oneself is really no different than a force fielder having access to mez protection. It is nice to have but does not fundamentally change what an empathy or force field character can do, they're still stuck with pitifully low offensive output.

 

I am with @Luminara that self buffing buffers would be a welcome QoL change, and not something that would break the game. The dps increase provided to tankers is a good precedent that game balance is moving more towards self sufficience.

 

The original addition of rune of protection to the game, regardless of its uptime/downtime values, was long overdue in addressing the mez protection disparity between archetypes. I hope that the future of this game includes more tools to deal with mez effects or debuffs.

 

I would also like to see more prevalancy of mez effects and debuffs in the toolkits of enemy factions alongside more tools to react to more interactive encounters. This edges on a mez system overhaul but can also be as simple as adding more powers to enemy critter kits, and more player tools to respond to those new threats. I also feel that there should be mez effects in certain encounters that can break standard mez protection values that are available to any archetype. 

 

A good example is some of the current discussions in the blaster forum that illustrate how playing a blaster makes you very aware of every way that an enemy spawn can affect your character. Playing a melee character does not have that immersive interaction with what you put your character up against (scrapperlock)

Edited April 14, 2021 by DreadShinobi

[DreadShinobi]

Just now, Wavicle said:

That increase was put it in to make Tankers as attractive to teams as Brutes. I don't recall anyone saying anything about soloability in reference to that.

brutes were used as a close comparison tool. Tankers were absolutely also looked at individually with attention to their leveling speed.

[SeraphimKensai]

3 hours ago, Jimmy said:

This is going a little off the rails.

 

This thread is to discuss Sorcery, not.... the dozen other random topics in here 🙂

Sorry apparently I opened a can of worms, although I tried to keep my points rooted to the Sorcery powerset with Spirit Ward.

[Mezmera]

56 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Sorry apparently I opened a can of worms, although I tried to keep my points rooted to the Sorcery powerset with Spirit Ward.

 

Nah you were fine it was legit on topic.  Metaphors started to jump to support sets and then it tapered off to something else.  Jimmy was fine to reverse time some of that chat.  

[arcane]

The only way it could be remotely acceptable for ally-only buffs to suddenly affect self would be to cut all their values down to about a quarter of the current ones when used on self. Otherwise, yes, absolutely overpowered by any meaningful definition of the word.

[Cheli]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

The only way it could be remotely acceptable for ally-only buffs to suddenly affect self would be to cut all their values down to about a quarter of the current ones when used on self. Otherwise, yes, absolutely overpowered by any meaningful definition of the word.

You haven't provided any support for this statement, and others who have done so have more or less not made a very strong argument. A defender being able to cast Fortitude on herself because she's playing alone to still be worse at everything than a damage dealer does not a broken game make. A lot of this just feels like the "it's not how the game is supposed to because it's different from [time when I thought the game was the best]," which is a weak argument.

 

Regardless, I still disagree with ROP change, and with the implication in the rework that damage-dealing pool powers necessarily need to be weaker. All this really means is that taking one will always be a) an aesthetic choice with an acknowledgment it's not a good power and you probably won't use it much or b) a prerequisite pick for later powers in the pool with an acknowledgment it's not a good power and you probably won't use it much. I take the fighting pool on most of my characters for Tough/Weave and aside from it occasionally being a useful defensive set mule, I've never used boxing/kick even on my character who's a literal kickboxer and it makes me sad. Considering pools generally only have at most 2 attack powers, if they have any, and you can only pick 4 of them, I dunno why it seems like the only use devs think you should ever get out of a pool power is as a power tax for later powers, or as something to fill an attack chain while leveling. I know these assumptions are more or less entrenched in the game design for better or worse, but I think if we have a discussion about the prevalence and nature of mez in the game, it's worth taking a look at some of the other built-in assumptions, too.

[arcane]

9 minutes ago, Cheli said:

You haven't provided any support for this statement, and others who have done so have more or less not made a very strong argument. A defender being able to cast Fortitude on herself because she's playing alone to still be worse at everything than a damage dealer does not a broken game make. A lot of this just feels like the "it's not how the game is supposed to because it's different from [time when I thought the game was the best]," which is a weak argument.

 

I don’t need to provide any additional support beyond “go look at how the numbers look on every other comparable power”. Find me an immediately permable click power that grants the user stats as high as Fortitude, Sonic Haven, Insulation Shield, Speed Boost, etc, and I will consider changing my position.

[Myrmidon]

On 4/14/2021 at 8:07 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

My only interest in Spirit Ward as is, or planned would be potentially as a controller or mastermind to give to one of my own pets, and in a situation where it pretty much is between that and a dud, or if I have extra slots and a power and I really want a set bonus from some health IO's.

I have 21 magic origin characters in their own “coven” SG and every single one of them is slated to possess one or more abilities other than Mystic Flight from Sorcery. These abilities will even possess the same F/X effects, which is perfect for this group of characters. Now that most of Sorcery is likely no longer going to be trash, the concept finally works.

[DreadShinobi]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I don’t need to provide any additional support beyond “go look at how the numbers look on every other comparable power”. Find me an immediately permable click power that grants the user stats as high as Fortitude, Sonic Haven, Insulation Shield, Speed Boost, etc, and I will consider changing my position.

It is insufficient to look at that through a closed lens. 

A time Manip character gets 12.5% base def from farsight, pbaoe. Fortitude is base 15% def. If you cast Fort on yourself you are delaying casting it on the next ally. Time Manip also has a tohit debuff aura to pad its defense, Fort is the only +def available to empathy. Time manip also has relevant debuffs, force multipliers, and control options.  Empathy (and FF) do not. Should Farsight be changed to only affect allies and not self when clicked? I can already hear the outrage. Compared to a brute or tanker, that will also hit resist caps and/or defense softcaps, and have a higher resist cap, an empathy or forcefield character doesn't have punchvoke, a taunt aura, or in-set click taunt to really leverage being harder to kill. Already wrote about the irrelevance of self-sb kins getting all that much out of such a QoL change. 

 

A bubbler with tough/weave/maneuvers/IOs is still going to hit defense softcaps with or without being able to bubble oneself. If anything being able to affect oneself evens out the playing field between IO min/maxing and playing an SO character, which relevant to this thread, has been the targeted direction of the Rune of Protection change. RoP has been balanced around a non-recharge affected balance point and can be used as a precedent that future changes may look towards making the SO-enhanced game state something that is more fluid and enjoyable.

[arcane]

Farsight provides lower defense and tohit values than Fortitude plus no defense plus is not immediately perma without slots or set bonuses. And frankly, Farsight is already pretty damn OP. If you don’t think a Time defender is an easymode character I don’t know what to tell you. I don’t want every character to be that playable in one’s sleep tbh. If that’s not a suggestion of power creep, what is? Some of us enjoy that some builds still require a brain.

Also, the suggestion that merely not having taunt is enough of a difference between defenders and tankers and that it’s otherwise ok for them to be about as hard to kill... is absurd and goes against every design philosophy any dev has ever expressed here or on live.

Edited April 15, 2021 by arcane

[Neiska]

Still sort of bummed at the RoP ongoing tweaks and changes. Some people (corruptors and blasters mostly) used RoP combined with Barrier to survive. Even at max recharge, there was still a 30(ish) second gap in protection IIRC, but now it will be even wider.

 

Personally my favorite use for it was on my Widow to help absorb alpha strikes when my defenses weren't ready.

 

I am curious as to what the new solo blaster/corruptor builds will be, since RoP/Barrier juggling won't be sufficient anymore. And I have yet to see any ideas or suggestions put forward in that regard.

 

TLDR - The squishes who used to rely on ROP still got a whole lot squishier.

[Cheli]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

I don’t need to provide any additional support beyond “go look at how the numbers look on every other comparable power”. Find me an immediately permable click power that grants the user stats as high as Fortitude, Sonic Haven, Insulation Shield, Speed Boost, etc, and I will consider changing my position.

There's no amount of repeating the same line that's going to convince me a power ONLY becomes "broken" when used by a buffer on themselves and not on the other 7 members of a team. Silly argument.

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, Neiska said:

The squishes who used to rely on ROP still got a whole lot squishier.

Only those with crazy recharge. For most characters it’s a buff.

[Neiska]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Only those with crazy recharge. For most characters it’s a buff.

So what are the fragile builds supposed to do now, lacking RoP? Even if you slot for it, if you want to be semi durable on say, a corruptor, you are more or less forced into /time now, unless I am missing something? Or do they not want "squishes" soloing on hardest difficulty? 

 

I also wish to add I tend to favor tankers and masterminds, I have shelved my blasters, corruptors and even my widow when they all used the old RoP. With the new one, I shudder to think what it might be like soloing as a blaster now. I don't see many of them capable of the highest difficulty rating until near endgame levels and slotting now. And even then, I question if many of them would be able to.

 

I am not doomsaying, far from it. I am more or less curious as to what the alternative will be for such builds now.

[siolfir]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

I don’t need to provide any additional support beyond “go look at how the numbers look on every other comparable power”. Find me an immediately permable click power that grants the user stats as high as Fortitude, Sonic Haven, Insulation Shield, Speed Boost, etc, and I will consider changing my position.

What about toggles, since they're permanent and don't require animation time?

Sonic Haven: (Defender numbers) provides 20% resistance to Fire, Cold, Energy, and Negative.

Conductive Shield provides 35% resistance to Fire, Cold, and Energy, and 20% resistance to Negative (Tanker numbers, because we're looking at Defender modifiers for the buff).

Winner: Tanker, with 100% uptime and much higher values.

 

I don't feel like cherry-picking the rest, but only one of the powers you listed is a single-target buff (the others were made into AoEs) and I agree that Fortitude does a lot of things and does them all well. But it, by itself, isn't going to be the make-or-break point for an Empathy Defender who has a low base damage and no in-set debuffs.

 

Edit: and again, this whole conversation belongs elsewhere - maybe in the "End Game and Game Balance" thread?

Edited April 15, 2021 by siolfir

[arcane]

16 minutes ago, Cheli said:

There's no amount of repeating the same line that's going to convince me a power ONLY becomes "broken" when used by a buffer on themselves and not on the other 7 members of a team. Silly argument.

You’re entitled to that opinion, sure. But I am confidant that my opinions are more in line with the current and past devs’ design visions, so I’m not too worried they’ll be strongly considering power-creep-heavy proposals.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, siolfir said:

What about toggles, since they're permanent and don't require animation time?

Sonic Haven: (Defender numbers) provides 20% resistance to Fire, Cold, Energy, and Negative.

Conductive Shield provides 35% resistance to Fire, Cold, and Energy, and 20% resistance to Negative (Tanker numbers, because we're looking at Defender modifiers for the buff).

Winner: Tanker, with 100% uptime and much higher values.

 

I don't feel like cherry-picking the rest, but only one of the powers you listed is a single-target buff (the others were made into AoEs) and I agree that Fortitude does a lot of things and does them all well. But it, by itself, isn't going to be the make-or-break point for an Empathy Defender who has a low base damage and no in-set debuffs.

 

Edit: and again, this whole conversation belongs elsewhere - maybe in the "End Game and Game Balance" thread?

If you are willing to (1) apply defender vs tanker multipliers/design formulas to those figures AND (2) *dramatically* increase recharge and/or endurance cost to account for toggles having serious costs... well then we can at least have a sincere discussion.

[arcane]

12 minutes ago, Neiska said:

So what are the fragile builds supposed to do now, lacking RoP?

I’d recommend seeking out one if the countless squishy-focused players that have never needed RoP or Barrier to survive and asking nicely for tips.

[Crysis]

On 4/13/2021 at 4:22 PM, Wavicle said:

That would be completely overpowered.

One mans OP is another’s “Totally Awesome!!!!”

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

I’d recommend seeking out one if the countless squishy-focused players that have never needed RoP or Barrier to survive and asking nicely for tips.

 

Thank you for the non-answer. I will be sure to pass that on to the 5 players in my SG who are shelving their squishies in light of this RoP change.