Possible ways to help support classes

[golstat2003]

On 4/23/2021 at 8:31 PM, Wavicle said:

The basic conflict is over the idea that Support need DPS and Tanks, but Tanks and DPS don't need Support.

I am perfectly happy with the idea that nobody NEEDS anybody but that everybody has something of value to contribute.

 

I think with buffs targeted at the sets that need help achieving that is possible. And that's the direction HC has been heading already.

Trick Arrow turned around entirely. I look forward to seeing more of the same.

 

And this is pretty much the thread.

[golstat2003]

21 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

I use the money from the last one lol

 

I find the previous character makes money a lot faster than the new one

 

But I am sure not everyone does it that way.  I concede your point.  XP and Influence awards scaling with more challenging content seems a worthwhile motivator.  You would need some way to measure this though I would think.   I am sure everyone has seen the Bads farm or S/L and Fire farms where the opposition is no real threat to the farmer.  If you started upping awards for challenging content.  It would have to be actually challenging.  

 

And one that would make it worthwhile to bring support and/or crowd control along.  The complaints of Control and Support sets based ATs are valid.  

 

You could have any new rewards not be able to be turned on in AE.

[srmalloy]

13 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Off topic, but if I were suggesting how AE would have been implemented, you wouldn't even get xp in it, only tickets. 

That, I think, is going too far; you're learning how to use your powers in 'live fire' exercises. However, since influence / infamy / information is rationalized in game as being other people willing to do things for you because of your reputation (for good or ill), I don't see how you get inf by essentially crawling into your holographic navel.
Level from 1 to 50 in AE, and you'll come out having fully learned how to use your powers, but the people on the street won't know you from Adam's off ox; you've got no reputation at all. And since you're not getting inf, the P2W powers to trade off inf for more XP should be suppressed in AE missions, too. You'd still get the ticket rewards, and maybe drops handwaved as AE rewarding performance (otherwise, how do you get physical salvage in a holographic simulation?).

[Leogunner]

10 hours ago, srmalloy said:

(otherwise, how do you get physical salvage in a holographic simulation?).

3D printing?

[MsSmart]

On 4/19/2021 at 1:06 PM, Ukase said:

I think a better question is, why do you think they need help? 

Cause statistically take a look at the arch types that does most of the dying, and hence, they need help. A simple observable, having alts on both sides of the fence, I can see the need. As a melee, I need my support boosting me, while boosted, watch me tear thru the baddies, but they are no good to me if they are dead or in la la land due to status effects. From a support perspective, say healer, the tanks today are so well built by design that they really do not require much help at all, I have several tanks than when properly IOd, I am essentially invulnerable for the vast majority of the situations. Now must of my buff customers and heal customers are blasters and scraper types, why because their main defense is defense, and too many mobs have defense de-buff (imagine the tanks moaning if the attacks were mainly resistance de-buff) so my buffs and heals are truly needed in tough battles, of course being a support, the term glass jaw is quite appropriate, so a great portion of my time is spent just trying to survive the AOE status effects being spammed, area damage attacks, the mandatory rear ambush, etc. I know that if I am going to make a difference via support, I got to be alive and not status effect neutralized. The major problem is I can't carry enough break frees and heals for myself since often I can't help myself to stay active an entire mission, and the inspirations I happen to need almost never drop. So with a little thought, it comes obvious who needs the most help, in order for them to do their job. 

 

Sue

[Naraka]

13 hours ago, MsSmart said:

Cause statistically take a look at the arch types that does most of the dying, and hence, they need help. A simple observable, having alts on both sides of the fence, I can see the need. As a melee, I need my support boosting me, while boosted, watch me tear thru the baddies, but they are no good to me if they are dead or in la la land due to status effects. From a support perspective, say healer, the tanks today are so well built by design that they really do not require much help at all, I have several tanks than when properly IOd, I am essentially invulnerable for the vast majority of the situations.

Why not suggest nerfs to melees and tanks?

[Apparition]

6 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Why not suggest nerfs to melees and tanks?

The only melee AT that may need a nerf is Tanker.  The other melee ATs are fine.  They’re already pretty useless on teams, but there is really nothing that can be done about it.  Like I have said before, it’s the game’s inherent trade off.  Melee is good at soloing, while bad on teams.  “Squishies” are bad at soloing, while good on teams.

[Haijinx]

15 minutes ago, Apparition said:

The only melee AT that may need a nerf is Tanker.  The other melee ATs are fine.  They’re already pretty useless on teams, but there is really nothing that can be done about it.  Like I have said before, it’s the game’s inherent trade off.  Melee is good at soloing, while bad on teams.  “Squishies” are bad at soloing, while good on teams.

If someone can solo 54x8, they will be plenty of help on a team, regardless of AT.

 

Unless they solo super slow.

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

If someone can solo 54x8, they will be plenty of help on a team, regardless of AT.

 

Unless they solo super slow.

 

Sure, they may be able to solo at +4x8, but melee slows down teams.  A team of all "squishies" will absolutely melt all of the mobs on a map much more quickly than a team of all or mostly melee.

[arcane]

13 hours ago, MsSmart said:

Cause statistically take a look at the arch types that does most of the dying, and hence, they need help. A simple observable, having alts on both sides of the fence, I can see the need. As a melee, I need my support boosting me, while boosted, watch me tear thru the baddies, but they are no good to me if they are dead or in la la land due to status effects. From a support perspective, say healer, the tanks today are so well built by design that they really do not require much help at all, I have several tanks than when properly IOd, I am essentially invulnerable for the vast majority of the situations. Now must of my buff customers and heal customers are blasters and scraper types, why because their main defense is defense, and too many mobs have defense de-buff (imagine the tanks moaning if the attacks were mainly resistance de-buff) so my buffs and heals are truly needed in tough battles, of course being a support, the term glass jaw is quite appropriate, so a great portion of my time is spent just trying to survive the AOE status effects being spammed, area damage attacks, the mandatory rear ambush, etc. I know that if I am going to make a difference via support, I got to be alive and not status effect neutralized. The major problem is I can't carry enough break frees and heals for myself since often I can't help myself to stay active an entire mission, and the inspirations I happen to need almost never drop. So with a little thought, it comes obvious who needs the most help, in order for them to do their job. 

 

Sue

Where are these statistics found and are they broken down into powersets, levels, IO status, incarnate status, etc.?

 

And would you have any interest in teaming up with a seasoned support character for a sesh?

[arcane]

Just now, Apparition said:

 

Sure, they may be able to solo at +4x8, but melee slows down teams.  A team of all "squishies" will absolutely melt all of the mobs on a map much more quickly than a team of all or mostly melee.

BillZ would claim the exact opposite. Can we decide which it is? 😞

[Haijinx]

Just now, Apparition said:

 

Sure, they may be able to solo at +4x8, but melee slows down teams.  A team of all "squishies" will absolutely melt all of the mobs on a map much more quickly than a team of all or mostly melee.

The melees can just all go in different directions

[Apparition]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The melees can just all go in different directions

 

That helps on one TF.  Believe it or not, there's more to CoH than the ITF.

[Doomguide2005]

Largely depends on builds, other abilities, and team composition.  I'd say in general teams of support (especially size 4+) do it safer, not necessarily faster particularly if we're not talking highly optimized.  When you get into highly optimized builds and then teams that have been optimized the difference gets pretty slim and may depend on what the foe and content is.  There's absolutely nothing remotely 'squishy' or slow about any large team of support characters with or without IOs that are optimized to work together.  Melee in general has less synergy and that will tend to slow them down compared to an optimized team of support whose synergy is relatively extreme by comparison but usually such teams also are slowed by subdividing into multiple groups as that synergy isn't as fully employed for their benefit even if with the advent of IOs they remain individually quite strong.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

That helps on one TF.  Believe it or not, there's more to CoH than the ITF.

True, but it helps in others as well.  Particularly defeat all missions

[Wavicle]

Even melee  have leadership buffs and some of them have their own buffs. Teams should always stick together, even melee teams. It is a fallacy to believe that you speed things up by splitting apart.

[MsSmart]

On 4/28/2021 at 10:58 AM, arcane said:

Where are these statistics found and are they broken down into powersets, levels, IO status, incarnate status, etc.?

 

And would you have any interest in teaming up with a seasoned support character for a sesh?

Would be happy to, but when I play my squoshies, I hardly ever die, but then I am a veteran from the live days, have awesome IOd builds, etc. The issue is not all players are as experienced say as you, and their builds are not as sharp as yours. That is why, I make suggestions to help the newbies; folks like you have such mastery of the game, that a lot of the deadlyness of the challenge can be avoided by knowing what to do. The only time, I do die, is because I am testing my build to determine her limits.

 

But I do suggest go do an ITF with just your average mix of folks, and observe who is doing the face planting; it is a binary proposition melee vs support, so just track as you go during the ITF.

 

Sue

[arcane]

But newbs aren’t supposed to have the easiest time; that would disincentivize them from learning! 🙂

[UltraAlt]

On 4/20/2021 at 12:49 PM, arcane said:

I also don’t really agree that teams in which everything dies in 2 seconds really present a support-specific problem

 

Could just as well be a tank(s) that isn't taunting, melee characters rushing into something that they can't handle, tanks trying to herd more than they handle...

.....or settings being jacked up too high for the players that are playing.

 

But more often than not, it's simply the no-strategy I like to call bull-in-a-china-shop. All there is is rushing in and hulk-smash. 

I've seen a lot of team wipes because of that.

 

On 4/20/2021 at 1:19 PM, Wavicle said:

2. On teams the defender is usually the squishiest one there, because of the combination of low hp and, in some cases, buffs that don't effect the caster.

 

So here's the ol'Defender tricks::

1) Never attack first.

 

2) Target through the melee (especially if they are a tank with taunt. If a tank doesn't taunt, then taunt them if you feel like by not healing them. "Why aren't you healing?" "Well, I figured if taunt wasn't important for a tank, then I didn't need to heal.") - the do more damage generally, so they will keep the agro even if they don't have taunt.

 

3) Single target - if you use an AoE, you might do damage to an enemy that the melee hasn't done damage to. This may happen with single target attacks, but if you use an AoE, you have a risk of having more attack you. This means that you will also be making it easier for the character you are targeting through defeat their opponents faster.

 

4) Always heal and buff the character that you are targeting through first. Always. 

 

5) AVs are alway going to try to target a Defender first if they can. Run away around a corner as able to break LoS (line-of-sight) and ALWAYS stay out of melee range. You are the biggest threat. Not because you can do the most damage, but because you can keep those that do the most damage alive.

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by UltraAlt

[UltraAlt]

On 4/28/2021 at 11:59 AM, Haijinx said:

The melees can just all go in different directions

 

Yes. They often do behave like a lot of chickens running around with their heads lopped off.

 

Some call it scrapperlock. 

 

"Scrapperlock
A state of mind where the player (most commonly a Scrapper or Brute) dashes from foe to foe without regard to surroundings. Similar to berserkers, players in Scrapperlock may fail to notice damage being taken by themselves or their teammates." - https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Scrapperlock

[Alty]

On 5/6/2021 at 12:55 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

So here's the ol'Defender tricks::

1) Never attack first.

 

2) Target through the melee (especially if they are a tank with taunt. If a tank doesn't taunt, then taunt them if you feel like by not healing them. "Why aren't you healing?" "Well, I figured if taunt wasn't important for a tank, then I didn't need to heal.") - the do more damage generally, so they will keep the agro even if they don't have taunt.

 

3) Single target - if you use an AoE, you might do damage to an enemy that the melee hasn't done damage to. This may happen with single target attacks, but if you use an AoE, you have a risk of having more attack you. This means that you will also be making it easier for the character you are targeting through defeat their opponents faster.

 

4) Always heal and buff the character that you are targeting through first. Always. 

 

5) AVs are alway going to try to target a Defender first if they can. Run away around a corner as able to break LoS (line-of-sight) and ALWAYS stay out of melee range. You are the biggest threat. Not because you can do the most damage, but because you can keep those that do the most damage alive.

 

These are Defender tricks?! 🤔This kinda reads like rules for children --Stay in the back and play nice, also don't touch anything Melee hasn't said was okay for you to touch. All buffs/heals belong to Melee, do not use them without their permissions. 

 I don't think I've ever followed these rules and I've played a METRIC TON of 'support' ATs with and without Repeat Offenders. 

EDIT: The confused reactions are highly amusing -  There's different ways to play and being the alpha sponge can go to any AT.  Also buffing the AT with the most HP and protection first seems needless...but ya know, those Holy Trinity rules are hard to break for some. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Alty

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Alty said:

These are Defender tricks?! 🤔This kinda reads like rules for children --Stay in the back and play nice, also don't touch anything Melee hasn't said was okay for you to touch. All buffs/heals belong to Melee, do not use them without their permissions. 

I don't believe he ever said they were rules. 

He said these were tricks... as in... techniques that can be used... and he said it in response to someone who said he felt like Defenders were typically the squishiest of all. 

 

If you're not feeling squishy? Go to town. Blast away. You do you. 

If you find yourself faceplanting a lot... might be worth taking a gander at that list. 

That's all I got from it anyway.

[Alty]

1 minute ago, MTeague said:

I don't believe he ever said they were rules. 

He said these were tricks... as in... techniques that can be used... and he said it in response to someone who said he felt like Defenders were typically the squishiest of all. 

 

If you're not feeling squishy? Go to town. Blast away. You do you. 

If you find yourself faceplanting a lot... might be worth taking a gander at that list. 

That's all I got from it anyway.

I used the word rules, twice...Sub the word 'tricks' where I wrote 'rules'.  Everything else stands as is. Those 'tricks' are for kids. 😉

[Doomguide2005]

On 5/6/2021 at 3:55 AM, UltraAlt said:

<snip>

 

Quote

So here's the ol'Defender tricks::

1) Never attack first.

a) That's not a Defender or support trick.  That's a "trying to survive trick because I'm in over my head trick".  Often because I'm sidekicked on a mission where the notoriety is a wee bit high 😜 for the bull in a china shop routine for the non-sidekicked members.

Quote

 

2) Target through the melee (especially if they are a tank with taunt. If a tank doesn't taunt, then taunt them if you feel like by not healing them. "Why aren't you healing?" "Well, I figured if taunt wasn't important for a tank, then I didn't need to heal.") - the do more damage generally, so they will keep the agro even if they don't have taunt.

b) I'm going out on a limb and guess you mean withhold some nice buff or debuff since Trick Arrow, Cold Domination, Force Fields, etc. can't really withhold something they don't have.  And see a) above.  First priority is knowing your own limits.  Doesn't matter if you're a Tanker or a support running on expired enhancements.  Like I said survival technique not 'support'.  My Empath, well the mob won't know I'm there until after Dreadful Wail or Blackstar go off.  They do tend to target through teammates but when that's deliberate it's likely because they're in the deep end over their heads and I'm trying to, support them up to and including dragging any aggro I can off them with my attacks while buffing and healing them.

Quote

 

3) Single target - if you use an AoE, you might do damage to an enemy that the melee hasn't done damage to. This may happen with single target attacks, but if you use an AoE, you have a risk of having more attack you. This means that you will also be making it easier for the character you are targeting through defeat their opponents faster.

c) And ... things dying faster because I'm putting some hurt on them sounds like a win win for the team.  I don't break that easy, but again that's knowing what you can handle and not limited to support.  My scrapper's been known to target through folks too if they get colorful and she's definitely not support except in the broadest english sense of the word.

Quote

 

4) Always heal and buff the character that you are targeting through first. Always. 

d) Okay, probably a good idea since I tend to target teammates acting like some crazed traffic light as is 😜.

Quote

 

5) AVs are alway going to try to target a Defender first if they can. Run away around a corner as able to break LoS (line-of-sight) and ALWAYS stay out of melee range. You are the biggest threat. Not because you can do the most damage, but because you can keep those that do the most damage alive.

e)  Run, no if I'm doing that it's called pulling.  And some of my best support is the up close and personal kind.  But yeah I'm not stoopid either and have an immobilize for a reason.  Nice AV sit, stay, debuff and die!

 

[arcane]

I have come to the conclusion that the number of posters who don’t know the meaning of the English word “support” must be nonzero in order for this thread to exist in its current state.