Help me understand Claws Vs Savage Melee

[Arbegla]

Hi everyone,

 

  So I haven't played Savage Melee yet, but it really just seems like Claws with extra effects. How accurate or not is that? I love Claws, especially on a Brute (Spin is just amazing) but what makes Savage Melee different? I don't want to say Better, but different? Would the feel of that character matter?

 

Is it basically the difference between Wolverine (Claws) and Sabretooth (Savage Melee)?

[MTeague]

Visually?  

 

Claws: 

• are weapon extensions from your hands or perhaps wrists (Vanguard claws)
• can be selected to look like metallic blades, or some option have "energy claws" that are kind of lightsaber claws.
• have 2 attacks where you launch a force projectile (Focus / Shockwave).
• I get the feeling of a more graceful dodging warrior from Claws animations.  that's just me. 

Savage: 

• you're tearing into the enemy with your fingers, nails, and fists. grabbing and tearing at gobbets of flesh. 
• doesn't have any blade looks that I've found, though you can wear Spiked Gloves for a costume option if you wish.
  • one that looks particularly nasty, is if you use Assymetric Gloves, and use the LARGE hook option on each hand. Looks just "oh man that's brutal" on several attacks.
  • OTOH, that only really works if your character is conceptually some kind of shapeshifter, and could switch to other costumes with regular hands if you need to turn doorknobs, or work computers, or take care of certain biological functions. 
• does not launch projectiles away from you.  But Savage does have a teleport attack where YOU are the projectile.
• gives me the impression of a warrior who would happily be soaked in the blood of his enemies.

[Sovera]

Carrying from @MTeague quite detailed explanation:

 

- Claws has very good AoE damage thanks to being able to run Follow-up, Spin, Shockwave, then repeat. Spin does double the damage of other PbAoEs. The 'downside' is that Shockwave is a cone but at 90º degree and it has a 40y range and can slow a ForceFeedback proc which accelerates all cooldowns. Shockwave also recharges so fast that mobs have barely got up before being planted on their butts again. This is a LOT of mitigation.

- Claws has two places to slot Force Feedback procs which helps a lot with cooldown heavy secondaries.

- Claws' Build-up mechanic is Follow-up. Instead of a straight 100% damage buff for 10 seconds it gives a stacking damage buff. This is good and this is bad. It's good because we run around with 75% damage all the time. This buffs everything from damage auras to epic attacks and secondaries who also have attacks. It's 'bad' because it does not have the sheer burst of using Build-up + Gaussian then drop a couple AoEs and clean most minions in the first seconds of combat.

- Claws ST damage is top notch on top of the top notch AoE damage.

- Claws animations are a bit clumsy and dated.

 

-Savage has a typical cone usually ignored, a PbAoE which does normal PbAoE damage, then Savage Leap which is another PbAoE. The recharge of Savage Leap is awkward but can be put down to about 12 seconds. It takes to damage procs very well and despite the mechanic of doing more damage the further away from the target the damage procs make it worth to use even in melee range. Being a second PbAoE there is no need to reposition yourself as with Shockwave in order to catch the most mobs with the cone.

- Savage has one place for a Force Feedback proc.

- Savage ST damage is mediocre thanks to a few different factors:

a) The Build-up power has a stupid long 2.3 animation time instead of the typical 1.1.

b) Savage Melee's heavy hitter is badly tuned which means there is no longer a single AT where it is worth to use Hemorrhage.  Instead the set relies on using its T1, T2 and T4. Being able to do good damage while using a T1 and T2 is near impossible and this shows.

- Savage Melee animations are overall gorgeous.

[InvaderStych]

Excellent descriptions so far.  Couple of notes ... Writing up a bind to <shift>-s for Combat Teleport to port you backwards a moderate distance is a great way to maximize Leap's mechanics, both the damage buff and the collection of Frenzy stacks.   These are from my blaster (fire/martial), and I haven't tuned the distances for Savage as both of my Savage toons are taking a break while I obsess over my new toy.

 

lshift+w "powexec_location forward:55 combat teleport"
lshift+a "powexec_location left:35 combat teleport"
lshift+s "powexec_location back:40 combat teleport"
lshift+d "powexec_location right:35 combat teleport"

 

 

Leap, owing to it's proc-a-bility is where I like to drop the +50% proc.  Near as makes no difference to a guaranteed proc firing off on the power one is usually using to open.  Leap also has interesting interactions with Double-Hit (Hybrid Assault Radial), Bopper has a thread on Hybrid in the guides section where I posted what I noticed on my Brute. Despite the favorable proc rate, this is not everyone's placement of choice though, so ymmv and all that fun caveat like stuff.

Edited April 22, 2021 by InvaderStych

[Arcadio]

On 4/22/2021 at 2:27 PM, Sovera said:

b) Savage Melee's heavy hitter is badly tuned which means there is no longer a single AT where it is worth to use Hemorrhage.  Instead the set relies on using its T1, T2 and T4. Being able to do good damage while using a T1 and T2 is near impossible and this shows.

Did something happen to the crit on hemorrhage and I missed it? From what I remember, using it out of hide on a stalker did ridiculous damage

[DreadShinobi]

12 minutes ago, Arcadio said:

Did something happen to the crit on hemorrhage and I missed it? From what I remember, using it out of hide on a stalker did ridiculous damage

See the Savage Guide thread in the stalker forums by @Frosticus detailed discussion about hemorrhage change.

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Arcadio said:

Did something happen to the crit on hemorrhage and I missed it? From what I remember, using it out of hide on a stalker did ridiculous damage

 

It got fixed. So now it's useless on all ATs 🙂

[MTeague]

47 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

It got fixed. So now it's useless on all ATs 🙂

"fixed" as in "the cat got fixed", eh?

[Sovera]

Just now, MTeague said:

"fixed" as in "the cat got fixed", eh?

 

Well, something got chopped off alright.

[Haijinx]

On 4/23/2021 at 8:13 PM, Sovera said:

 

Well, something got chopped off alright.

 

The stalker version still has less downsides than the other versions.  That and claws stalkers don't get spin.

[Elia87]

Sorry for the question..

I am interested in trying out claws..now which AT should i use to do high dmg? And which secondary would you guys suggest to pair it with?

[Jacktar]

Hi, from the older(more traditional?) sets I have an SR/Claws tank and my main is a Claws/SR Scrappie.

The tank is really good fun and I get a few comments of surprise about using those sets  so that is nice.

The scrappie is just a buzzsaw dashing about like the puppies full of energy drink.

Not very flashy or bang wallop but for the bosses and big bad guys always standing at the end.

 

 

[Parabola]

3 hours ago, Elia87 said:

Sorry for the question..

I am interested in trying out claws..now which AT should i use to do high dmg? And which secondary would you guys suggest to pair it with?

In my opinion claws is best on scrappers and tanks. They make the most out of follow up which is the key mechanic of the set. Brutes are ok with it but the low base damage scalar hurts them a little. Stalkers get a gimped version that has given up too much in the conversion.

 

Secondary is largely whatever you fancy. Claws is end light, has some mitigation in shockwave, is largely self contained (no real need for additional attacks) and follow up helps with accuracy as well as damage. As such claws doesn't need much from the rest of your build other than some recharge.

 

For scrappers I favour the taunt aura sets so energy aura would be good as it also provides recharge, end tools, a heal and good defences. You can't pair claws with shield which is a shame as that combo would be pretty devastating on a scrapper. Bio is another really strong pairing, this works well on either tank or scrapper (very offensively focused tank).

[Elia87]

Wow ok sounds awesome. For maximum dmg and survivability would you say bio or energy secondary?? I wanted to be able to solo GMs atleast 😃

[Parabola]

58 minutes ago, Elia87 said:

Wow ok sounds awesome. For maximum dmg and survivability would you say bio or energy secondary?? I wanted to be able to solo GMs atleast 😃

Bio will do more damage without doubt but ea is probably more sturdy. They are very different sets so it's difficult to compare directly, each will be better in different areas. They also fit very different themes so you might want to check out how they look before deciding, it's all very well choosing purely based on the mechanics but you will spend a long time looking at the result.

 

Not sure about gm soloability I'm afraid. I'm curious to know what the challenges beyond gm soloing are though given the 'at least'!

[Elia87]

I wanted to make a scrapper that was capable of soloing GMs..and claw i really love the power..so i thought I'd ask for help

[Parabola]

5 hours ago, Elia87 said:

I wanted to make a scrapper that was capable of soloing GMs..and claw i really love the power..so i thought I'd ask for help

Here's my claws/bio scrapper (designed to use barrier):

Spoiler

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Bio Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Strike -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Hardened Carapace -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(7), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(7), UnbGrd-Max HP%(9), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(9), GldArm-3defTpProc(11)
Level 2: Slash -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Hct-Acc/Rchg(13), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Hct-Dam%(15), AchHee-ResDeb%(15)
Level 4: Environmental Modification -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def(17), Rct-Def/EndRdx(19), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(19), Ksm-ToHit+(21), Rct-ResDam%(21)
Level 6: Spin -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Arm-Acc/Rchg(23), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Arm-Dam%(25), Erd-%Dam(27)
Level 8: Follow Up -- SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprCrtStr-Dmg/Rchg(27), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SprCrtStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprCrtStr-Rchg/+50% Crit(31)
Level 10: Inexhaustible -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 12: Adaptation 
Level 14: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 16: Ablative Carapace -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(31), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(33), Prv-Heal/Rchg(33), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(33), Prv-Absorb%(34)
Level 18: Focus -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(34), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Apc-Dam%(36), FrcFdb-Rechg%(36)
Level 20: Evolving Armor -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(37), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(37), RctArm-ResDam(37)
Level 22: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 26: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 28: DNA Siphon -- SprScrStr-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprScrStr-Rchg/+Crit(39), Heal-I(40), Heal-I(40), ThfofEss-+End%(50)
Level 30: Tough -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(40), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42), RctArm-ResDam(42)
Level 32: Shockwave -- SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(43), FrcFdb-Rechg%(43), PstBls-Dam%(45)
Level 35: Genetic Contamination -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(46)
Level 38: Parasitic Aura -- Prv-Heal/EndRdx(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg(46), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(48)
Level 41: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(48), RedFrt-Def(48)
Level 44: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(50), RedFrt-Def(50)
Level 47: Focused Accuracy -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Physical Perfection -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(17)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
Level 12: Defensive Adaptation 
Level 12: Efficient Adaptation 
Level 12: Offensive Adaptation 
------------

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[Elia87]

Wow thank you so much Parabola! 

[Heraclea]

The one advantage of Savage Melee that nobody seems to have mentioned is the endurance discount that is always building from the Frenzy mechanic.  As such it pairs well with end hog armors like Dark Armor.  I have a Dark/Savage tanker that I rather enjoy. 

[Arbegla]

6 hours ago, Heraclea said:

The one advantage of Savage Melee that nobody seems to have mentioned is the endurance discount that is always building from the Frenzy mechanic.  As such it pairs well with end hog armors like Dark Armor.  I have a Dark/Savage tanker that I rather enjoy. 

 

Is it worth using the Blood Lust 'spenders' at 5 stacks, or just keep the passive bonuses active, and not really care about the spending mechanic?

[Heraclea]

11 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Is it worth using the Blood Lust 'spenders' at 5 stacks, or just keep the passive bonuses active, and not really care about the spending mechanic?

I use the spenders liberally, and also use the powers when there is little to spend; then again on the tanker I am running with Dark Armor/Savage, I tried to give the character every endurance advantage I know how, and the end result may be overkill  The discount is noticeable, though, especially when levelling.