Please revert the Rage change.

[Profit]

This is incorrect. I can rage crash and still footstomp, which means I can still knockdown nearly the entire mob.

 

Fair enough point. But you're still going to have a substantial DPS drop. Not that I'm complaining about a drop, but it's certainly a downside.

 

Yes, DPS sucks unless you use blackwand, nem staff, and sands of mu to fill that hole.

[JusticeEagle]

 

the damage penalty (which means foes get 10 secs to wail on you while you can't fight back)

 

This is incorrect. I can rage crash and still footstomp, which means I can still knockdown nearly the entire mob. And if they are getting up, they aren't wailing on me. So it is incorrect to play like you're helpless because of no damage, you're not helpless, just not doing what you think you should do.

 

This is what's incorrect. Many of the mobs that are going to be most dangerous will also have at least some kd protection. And the end crash means you may not be able to Footstomp anyway, even if they are vulnerable to knockdown.

 

You sound like a brute player not a tank player. Two different things. As a tank player, I can tell you I have no problems knocking anything shy of an AV from it's feet. And the End crash never runs me dry. Drops me to a little less than half sometimes, but never dry.

 

No, I'm a tank player, and a pretty good one from what people who've grouped with me have said. Of course, that's neither here nor there, as none of that changes what I've said. There's simply no need for a def crash in Rage, as it makes the power unusable in high-level content. The dmg and end crashes are more than enough for balance. Rage pretty much just brings SS up to par with the other melee sets, and without it SS underperforms.

[Rylas]

I think straight up removing it would have to come with some other downside. The thing we want to avoid is it becoming a "just set it on auto and forget about it" power, as that runs counter to the intent of both the original design and Castle's redesign of it.

 

Even removing the damage penalty (due to the mentioned smashing resist issues) isn't out of the question if we can come up with some kind of alternative mechanic.

 

Even with an amazing IO build for an SS/Elec Brute, I still felt like I had to pay attention to the crashes. He wasn't even a defensed base set. In fact, it was the other penalties that I was more concerned about, stacked Rage or not.

 

But, if we still need more than just those drawbacks, might I suggest giving Rage the Energy Transfer treatment? No, not a longer animation. I mean the self -HP. At least that would affect all armor sets equally.

 

Off topic: Would Energy Melee tweaks also be something that could be on the table? (to be hashed out in its own thread)

[Rylas]

Yes, DPS sucks unless you use blackwand, nem staff, and sands of mu to fill that hole.

 

When we start balancing sets around temp powers, I'll concede this as a valid argument.

[Profit]

to the intent

 

I think we need to refrain from using the word intent. The original intent of the devs was that tanks would have the fury bar, not brutes. How did that turn out? The original intent of the devs was that tankers would be the only AT that had a AOE auto-hit taunt power in their selection. How did that turn out? The original intent of the devs was that masterminds would be the tanking class in COV. How did that turn out?

 

We really need to stop referencing the 'intent' of the original devs until such time as we prepared to make the two minor changes that will balance the brute and tank class and cause one to stop invalidating the other. But that won't happen because the uproar on any change to brutes is more than you guys will be willing to deal with. So we need to be conscious of use of the word 'intent'.

[Profit]

Yes, DPS sucks unless you use blackwand, nem staff, and sands of mu to fill that hole.

 

When we start balancing sets around temp powers, I'll concede this as a valid argument.

 

Sorry, I was unclear. Yes the dps hit sucks unless you use the work around of temp powers for the duration. And it is a work around, but it does work.

[Profit]

 

the damage penalty (which means foes get 10 secs to wail on you while you can't fight back)

 

This is incorrect. I can rage crash and still footstomp, which means I can still knockdown nearly the entire mob. And if they are getting up, they aren't wailing on me. So it is incorrect to play like you're helpless because of no damage, you're not helpless, just not doing what you think you should do.

 

This is what's incorrect. Many of the mobs that are going to be most dangerous will also have at least some kd protection. And the end crash means you may not be able to Footstomp anyway, even if they are vulnerable to knockdown.

 

You sound like a brute player not a tank player. Two different things. As a tank player, I can tell you I have no problems knocking anything shy of an AV from it's feet. And the End crash never runs me dry. Drops me to a little less than half sometimes, but never dry.

 

No, I'm a tank player, and a pretty good one from what people who've grouped with me have said. Of course, that's neither here nor there, as none of that changes what I've said. There's simply no need for a def crash in Rage, as it makes the power unusable in high-level content. The dmg and end crashes are more than enough for balance. Rage pretty much just brings SS up to par with the other melee sets, and without it SS underperforms.

 

Our anecdotal evidence then is quite different as I used Rage in high level content all the time (STF,ITF,LRSF,Eden) and find it only a minor inconvenience. I will whole heartedly agree that rage is needed to bring SS up to par with other melee sets however.

[Rylas]

When we start balancing sets around temp powers, I'll concede this as a valid argument.

 

Sorry, I was unclear. Yes the dps hit sucks unless you use the work around of temp powers for the duration. And it is a work around, but it does work.

 

Again, when we start balancing sets around temp powers...

[Rylas]

Our anecdotal evidence then is quite different as I used Rage in high level content all the time (STF,ITF,LRSF,Eden) and find it only a minor inconvenience. I will whole heartedly agree that rage is needed to bring SS up to par with other melee sets however.

 

Could you provide some more context here? What armor set are you using? Is this an SO build?

 

I ran an IO SS/Elec Brute. As a resist set, the -Def didn't really affect me. But even with Power Sink, I still needed to pay attention to Rage crashes. And I wasn't toting around temp powers to patch the -Dmg. Now, PS made the end crash manageable, but I still had to pay attention to when I needed to make sure I had PS available. The Rage crash still dictated gameplay in my situation. It wasn't a "click it and forget" power.

[Profit]

Our anecdotal evidence then is quite different as I used Rage in high level content all the time (STF,ITF,LRSF,Eden) and find it only a minor inconvenience. I will whole heartedly agree that rage is needed to bring SS up to par with other melee sets however.

 

Could you provide some more context here? What armor set are you using? Is this an SO build?

 

I ran an IO SS/Elec Brute. As a resist set, the -Def didn't really affect me. But even with Power Sink, I still needed to pay attention to Rage crashes. And I wasn't toting around temp powers to patch the -Dmg. Now, PS made the end crash manageable, but I still had to pay attention to when I needed to make sure I had PS available. The Rage crash still dictated gameplay in my situation. It wasn't a "click it and forget" power.

 

My main is an INV/SS tank. I had energy mastery for my epic pool. This would be with an SO build + HOs. And I found it an inconvenience, once I got inventions it was even less of an issue. Yes I did have temp powers for dps during the downtime, but mostly downtime was footstomp, Air Superiority something still standing, and knockout blow something else still standing. Handclap if I really needed a breather. But I never did click and forget, and honestly if I was in a team of 8, I used rage as needed, because I was there to hold aggro not be a brute.

 

But I also used DP before I entered a fight, so what do I know. Being at max hp causing a higher regeneration rate due to increased hp was a better option for me than a burst heal.

[Profit]

When we start balancing sets around temp powers, I'll concede this as a valid argument.

 

Sorry, I was unclear. Yes the dps hit sucks unless you use the work around of temp powers for the duration. And it is a work around, but it does work.

 

Again, when we start balancing sets around temp powers...

 

Don't put words in my mouth, I never suggested balancing because of temp powers. If any balance in this situation occurs I would expect the temp powers be made to accept the rage crash and no longer do damage. I was simply offering a 'workaround' if you were concerned about dps.

[subbacultchas]

Just to set some parameters here:

 

1. My understanding is that the change in question was part of a larger powers system revamp that fixed a lot of stacking bugs affecting other powers. Rage wasn't the target but was unintended collateral damage.

 

2. The bugfix isn't going to be rolled back. Not only would it break other things again but I'm not sure it can be reasonably disentangled from the rest of the powers system enhancements.

 

3. -20% Def is hugely punishing to specific powersets while affecting others much less.

 

4. Rebalancing Rage is absolutely on the table if we get some good ideas to keep it as an interesting, distinctive power for Super Strength.

 

Thank you for this. I don't have any good ideas yet, most of them I don't even like. But I will be thinking about it over the next few days and will post anything decent I can come up with.

[Rylas]

Don't put words in my mouth, I never suggested balancing because of temp powers. If any balance in this situation occurs I would expect the temp powers be made to accept the rage crash and no longer do damage. I was simply offering a 'workaround' if you were concerned about dps.

 

Not putting words in your mouth, just pointing out that temp power work arounds don't have any value when considering what changes could/should be made to Rage. I brought up the DPS drop (among other things) as a reason to drop the -Def penalty. I can appreciate work arounds, but they don't address the point I was bringing up.

[MalphiteMeIRL]

Just to set some parameters here:

 

1. My understanding is that the change in question was part of a larger powers system revamp that fixed a lot of stacking bugs affecting other powers. Rage wasn't the target but was unintended collateral damage.

 

2. The bugfix isn't going to be rolled back. Not only would it break other things again but I'm not sure it can be reasonably disentangled from the rest of the powers system enhancements.

 

3. -20% Def is hugely punishing to specific powersets while affecting others much less.

 

4. Rebalancing Rage is absolutely on the table if we get some good ideas to keep it as an interesting, distinctive power for Super Strength.

 

I'm just one person but I truly believe it was balanced as it was on live. Especially when you look at the overall DPA of other sets. It feels like on live they skipped changing the -def on Rage for years with a purpose. Considering they fixed other stacking bugs and even being able to avoid the damage drop as well.

 

My memory is a bit hazy but at one point you could perma T9 armors and avoid the crash as well right? Which they fixed on live.

 

 

Removing the -def drop would pretty much revert it to how it was on live.. without reverting the bugfix. If that idea is off the table though, as an interesting alternative mechanics, what about rage only being able to be activated after taking/dealing X amount of unmitigated damage?

 

Or even making it much stronger. EG: 160% damage boost for 2 minutes with just the damage crash. But a 7-8 minute cooldown.

 

EDIT: Also a little off topic, but I wonder if Castle's vision of SS is what inspired the brute's fury mechanic.

[Galaxy Brain]

Would it be possible to make Rage an auto power, and make it a mini-fury?

 

Each SS attack you activate builds Rage. You can stack rage up to 8 times for 10% damage a stack. Stacks last X time before decaying

 

This replaces the crash penalty with a time penalty, which is sort of the same: the player has no rage for a time

[Jaguaratron]

Seems like it would be more balanced to change it from a -20% defense drop to -10% defense AND resistance preventing the malignment of defense based sets and retaining a negative for what is a crazy good power.

[Profit]

 

EDIT: Also a little off topic, but I wonder if Castle's vision of SS is what inspired the brute's fury mechanic.

 

History time!

 

So after issue 4/5ish, there was much debate on the tank forum as to why take a tank instead of a scrapper. Jack Emmert (Statesman), became heavily involved in the discussion and began to work with us to develop a mechanic to make tanks more comic booky. The mechanic that the entire tank forum and Statesman developed you ask? We called it Fury and it revolved around tanks doing more damage as they got hit because they knew they needed to put the enemy down fast. World of Carboard and all that. And then Jack, bless his heart, promised that the mechanic was going to be implemented and given to tankers.

 

Fast forward to COV beta, and the post from Jack that said, hey, brutes got an awesome new mechanic called Fury, you're gonna love it, go play it.

 

And there was salt for every tanker, forever and ever.

 

edit:ocd and spelling :/

[Rylas]

Seems like it would be more balanced to change it from a -20% defense drop to -10% defense AND resistance preventing the malignment of defense based sets and retaining a negative for what is a crazy good power.

 

I think for equal treatment, it would have to be -10% Def, and -20% Res. Defense and resistance mitigate damage at a 1:2 ratio.

[Erratic1]

Why not just make it an Accuracy debuff for the duration of the endurance/damage debuff?

 

The concept of the crash is you're too tired to do anything. This means your attacks are weak and listless (inaccurate). Note, this addresses using temporary powers as they too would be inaccurate.

[HelenCarnate]

Drop the defense hit and increase the activation cost to say 25. So it costs a lot of energy to start and you get hit again when it ends. If you double stack or start getting close to triple stack you will pay for it by getting worn out faster.

[Rimerat]

Hi all. I made an SS/Fire brute assuming Rage still functioned as it did on live. You can imagine my disappointment when I was unable to stack Rage to mitigate the defense crash; thus rendering my pricey fantasy build crippled. My fault for not researching more.

 

I'm not going to claim that Rage stacking wasn't very powerful. There's a reason I gravitated toward making this character.

 

I'm also not going to advocate reaching a compromise in regards to the defense crash. In endgame City of Heroes, the ultimate goal for every tanky character is to reach the defense softcap (in s/l, or positionals). This isn't just for defense-focused sets. You want to reach the softcap on resist sets too; like my little Fire Armor brute. Without hitting the softcap, Fire Armor becomes significantly worse when looking at high-end content. This logic can be applied to any resist set; not just Fire of course.

 

The current Rage crash, or any compromise regarding the defense debuff would be totally unacceptable in my opinion because of this. A compromise (10% defense) would still render it unusable for many sets, and only open it up for use with defense -focused sets that can easily overcap.

 

That's just not the City of Heroes I knew and loved. Any Primary set should be viable with any Secondary set. It feels like a major betrayal of the games core values to leave this unavoidable defense crash in, in any form.

 

So, here's some suggestions if a change is deemed necessary:

 

- Reduce the +damage and/or +tohit of Rage.

- Reduce the duration AND cooldown so that the -damage crash happens somewhat more frequently.

- Increase the endurance crash/initial cost.

- Prevent Rage from stacking altogether.

- Allow Unrelenting in Presence to *passively* mitigate the crash.

- Just turn Rage into a standard buildup (my least favorite option, Rage is a unique skill for a reason!)

 

Thanks for reading my wall of text. ;)

[Solvernia]

Would it be possible to remove the -def drop entirely?

 

It's already possible.

 

[Trickshooter]

And while we're fixing things, Punch and Jab should have their base damage doubled.  Run the numbers and you'll see; those two powers are a complete joke.

 

If you run the numbers, they actually do the correct amount of damage for their recharge timers.

 

Jab: ((2*0.16)+0.36)/(1+0.75*0/5-(0.011*0/6)*(360-0)/5)=0.68

Punch: ((4*0.16)+0.36)/1+0.75*0/5-(0.011*0/6)*(360-0)/5)=1

 

That's not to say they can't break the damage formula; there's already precedence for that in SS, as Footstomp already does more damage than it should. But if Punch and Jab are a problem, it would be simpler to move up their recharges to either 3 and 5 seconds (0.84 DS on Jab, 1.16 DS on Punch) or 4 and 6 seconds (1 DS on Jab, 1.32 DS on Punch).

[Trickshooter]

Would you say there's openness on that table for just removing the -Def penalty? Considering the end crash (and what risks that can bring), the damage penalty (which means foes get 10 secs to wail on you while you can't fight back), and that SS is disadvantaged in the late game with prominent resists to S/L; do you consider there being a case that could be argued for it, even if not ultimately successful?

 

I think straight up removing it would have to come with some other downside. The thing we want to avoid is it becoming a "just set it on auto and forget about it" power, as that runs counter to the intent of both the original design and Castle's redesign of it.

 

Even removing the damage penalty (due to the mentioned smashing resist issues) isn't out of the question if we can come up with some kind of alternative mechanic.

 

If the -Defense has to stay, it seems simplest to let it be resistable.

 

However, that might make the effect negligible to sets with high defense debuff resistance, so if that's a problem (and I'm not sure it would be), would it make more sense if the -Defense was instead turned in to a -Str(Defense) instead?

[Vindicator]

And while we're fixing things, Punch and Jab should have their base damage doubled.  Run the numbers and you'll see; those two powers are a complete joke.

 

If you run the numbers, they actually do the correct amount of damage for their recharge timers.

 

Jab: ((2*0.16)+0.36)/(1+0.75*0/5-(0.011*0/6)*(360-0)/5)=0.68

Punch: ((4*0.16)+0.36)/1+0.75*0/5-(0.011*0/6)*(360-0)/5)=1

 

That's not to say they can't break the damage formula; there's already precedence for that in SS, as Footstomp already does more damage than it should. But if Punch and Jab are a problem, it would be simpler to move up their recharges to either 3 and 5 seconds (0.84 DS on Jab, 1.16 DS on Punch) or 4 and 6 seconds (1 DS on Jab, 1.32 DS on Punch).

 

For their recharge timers?  Yes.  For someone that supposedly has "super strength"?  No.