Sentinels. Are they underused?

[Underfyre]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Add me in for the reverse scourge squad. That sounds interesting. Moreso when it would lead more Sents into the alpha-eater role so that they could soften up fresh spawns.

 

Resident pessimist here. Let's say we inverse the Corruptor's mechanic. At 100% health they would have 100% crit chance on their first attack, which is almost always going to be their T9.

 

I guess this isn't a pressing concern with the low damage scalar, but something to consider.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, underfyre said:

Resident pessimist here. Let's say we inverse the Corruptor's mechanic. At 100% health they would have 100% crit chance on their first attack, which is almost always going to be their T9.

 

I guess this isn't a pressing concern with the low damage scalar, but something to consider.

 

No reason for it to be 100% crit rate starting out.

[Underfyre]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

No reason for it to be 100% crit rate starting out.

 

Well either it's an inverse of Corruptors, or it's a modified version that is now weakened because it is not that.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, underfyre said:

Well either it's an inverse of Corruptors, or it's a modified version that is now weakened because it is not that.

 

How does something that doesn't exist become weakened? As long as the new inherent provides more of a damage buff than the existing inherent, it's a buff.

[drbuzzard]

The inverse scourge is likely to be like most critting AOEs, perhaps with a 50% chance (on top of the scaling factor). Honestly, this is just fiddling with numbers which can be worked out on test. That's what it is for. 

[Teirusu]

3 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

Actually the speed runs I reference are MoITF at +4x8 on a 4 person team. I'd have to check if the 4 person blaster team or one of the melee teams has the current record. It changes all the time. Sentinels have not been of note. 

 

MoITF's are a silly metric to go by anyway, for various reasons.  They really only show off just how powerful things like Incarnate Destiny powers are and, of course, inspirations themselves.  (Of course, people are going to have stacks of inspirations waiting in their emails, ready to be used.)  The more you can squeeze into the time-frame of inspirations and destiny powers, they more powerful they become.  A 4 person team can easily have 2 Barriers, 1 Clarion, and either an Ageless or Rebirth.  That's basically like having a pocket empathy defender.. but -better-!

And, I'm sure that people don't bother with Sentinel  'Mo' runs because people feel they're 'bad' or not worth it, so they don't bother.  It's a self feeding cycle really.


As for the reverse scourge idea, I like that too.  That's a nice high-risk/high-reward trade there.  Rewards opening up with your nuke and facing the wrath of the rest of the spawn.  This is pretty much how I play my Sentinel anyway.  Get in as fast as I can, eat the alpha, and nuke before anyone else.  It rather fits into the idea of how I've viewed them as being the opposite of a Stalker.  Instead of using Hide to get big criticals on AS or AOEs, you're just waltzing right in, nuking, and waving good bye to half of them at the start.

 

Although, I can't say that it sounds.. very Sentinel-ish..?  But what is 'Sentinel' anyway?  Clearly, we're still trying to figure that out, apparently...

 

Increasing their caps and then making their buffs/debuffs better (Without effecting their secondaries), I think, would be a decent idea too.  Those PBAoe heals on the end of some of their epic sets are pretty.. trash.  This would certainly make the blast sets that have debuffs better in comparison to the all mighty Fire blast.

[PeregrineFalcon]

According to the wiki Sentinels have a .95 ranged damage modifier vs Blaster's 1.25.

 

If I were fixing Sentinels I'd remove their current inherent power altogether, increase the range of their attacks to Blaster ranges, and increase their ranged damage from .95 to 1.25, the same as Scrappers and Blasters. But with no snipe, no inherent and reduced AoE target caps, Sentinels are still going to do significantly less damage than either Blasters or Scrappers.

 

I'd also bump their buffs/debuffs and look at their crappy Epic Pools.

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

How does something that doesn't exist become weakened? As long as the new inherent provides more of a damage buff than the existing inherent, it's a buff.

You nerfed it, now it sucks!

[Haijinx]

35 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

According to the wiki Sentinels have a .95 ranged damage modifier vs Blaster's 1.25.

 

If I were fixing Sentinels I'd remove their current inherent power altogether, increase the range of their attacks to Blaster ranges, and increase their ranged damage from .95 to 1.25, the same as Scrappers and Blasters. But with no snipe, no inherent and reduced AoE target caps, Sentinels are still going to do significantly less damage than either Blasters or Scrappers.

 

I'd also bump their buffs/debuffs and look at their crappy Epic Pools.

Is the scale that different? 

 

That's too much.

 

Just reducing the gap would help.

[drbuzzard]

2 hours ago, Teirusu said:

 

MoITF's are a silly metric to go by anyway, for various reasons.  They really only show off just how powerful things like Incarnate Destiny powers are and, of course, inspirations themselves.  (Of course, people are going to have stacks of inspirations waiting in their emails, ready to be used.)  The more you can squeeze into the time-frame of inspirations and destiny powers, they more powerful they become.  A 4 person team can easily have 2 Barriers, 1 Clarion, and either an Ageless or Rebirth.  That's basically like having a pocket empathy defender.. but -better-!
 

Actually no inspirations are allowed on the runs either. Also, sentinels don't have a valid time because the attempts have failed, not due to reputation. 

[Teirusu]

One could argue that their damage scale is actually just 1 by the sheer fact that all of their attacks apply a -%5 RES debuff by default.  They also get the -20% RES on either their offensive or defensive opportunity.  So, in some situations, it's much closer to base blaster damage, when only talking about ranged ST.  Of course, blasters get defiance on top of that sooo yeah.

 

10 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Actually no inspirations are allowed on the runs either. Also, sentinels don't have a valid time because the attempts have failed, not due to reputation. 

 

That's interesting to know about the banning of inspiration usage on the runs, but that makes sense.  Still, the fact there's no valid time for Sents leads me to think it's a lack of will to do so with the people whom like to run them.  They know they'll get the better times with blasters because they do the most damage.  So, they practice it XX's times until they can get that -perfect- run until the stars align and they finally manage it.

There is literally no reason that, if a pack of scrappers could do it, that a similar pack of well-built Sentinels couldn't.  Would they take more time?  Probably, sure.  But they could still do it.

[siolfir]

 

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

4 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

According to the wiki Sentinels have a .95 ranged damage modifier vs Blaster's 1.25.

 

If I were fixing Sentinels I'd remove their current inherent power altogether, increase the range of their attacks to Blaster ranges, and increase their ranged damage from .95 to 1.25, the same as Scrappers and Blasters. But with no snipe, no inherent and reduced AoE target caps, Sentinels are still going to do significantly less damage than either Blasters or Scrappers.

 

I'd also bump their buffs/debuffs and look at their crappy Epic Pools.

Is the scale that different? 

 

That's too much.

 

Just reducing the gap would help.

It's 1.125 for ranged damage on Blasters (and melee damage for Scrappers), not 1.25.

 

Let's not try to make the gap larger than it is.

[oldskool]

4 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

 

*snip* increase the range of their attacks to Blaster ranges *snip*

 

I'd also bump their buffs/debuffs and look at their crappy Epic Pools.

 

For the first snippet, I'm curious... why?  The range "issue" is parroted a lot, but I rarely see a reason for it being a problem other than "none of the other range sets do it".  It is the same kind of argument that includes snipes vs no snipes in the Sentinel set.  Do Sentinels really need extended range when they have a defensive secondary?  The range of Blaster attacks makes sense when one considers that buying additional time before being charged in melee is part of the mitigation gameplay.  This isn't something Sentinels even need, or is it? 

As to the last comment, by "crappy" you must mean how a single epic can eclipse the throughput of most of the entire primary sets.  I will say, some of the latter options in the epics are hot garbage in my opinion (Hi Warmth, no one likes you!).  However, I find a ton of value in AoE immobilize, holds, some of the melee options and so on.  So beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder. 
 

Edited May 15, 2021 by oldskool

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

Actually no inspirations are allowed on the runs either. Also, sentinels don't have a valid time because the attempts have failed, not due to reputation. 

 

Odd since I soloed it with MoITF rules at max diff on my fire/bio sent. Granted, it was slow as fark.

[Underfyre]

7 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

How does something that doesn't exist become weakened? As long as the new inherent provides more of a damage buff than the existing inherent, it's a buff.

 

 

I'd rather just buff the existing inherent than try to shoehorn in a reversed version of an existing mechanic. Then nerf it to prevent it from being abused.

 

Picture it. 4 Sentinels all rushing in with staggered Ageless buffs, their T9 ready every single pull, synced up casting on just about every pack of mobs. Everything dies in seconds. Knowing everything is a snapshot at the time of casting, it won't matter that casts are slightly off, they count as 100% health anyway. Clear times make everything other AT look like a joke. How long until they nerf it to quiet down the Blasters?

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

47 minutes ago, oldskool said:

For the first snippet, I'm curious... why?  The range "issue" is parroted a lot, but I rarely see a reason for it being a problem other than "none of the other range sets do it".  It is the same kind of argument that includes snipes vs no snipes in the Sentinel set.  Do Sentinels really need extended range when they have a defensive secondary?

I'd say mostly as a Quality of Life change. It's annoying on my Sentinels to round the corner and not be able to engage the enemies because they're 62 feet away from me, or whatever. It happens a lot.

 

And yes, I'd definitely look at their crappy Epic Pools. The ones that aren't crappy I'd leave alone. In fact, I'd look at all of the Epic Pools for all of the ATs and do a little work on all of the crappy ones. But I'm not a dev and, for all I know, they simply don't have time for that.

 

And thanks, Siolfir, for correcting my mistake on the numbers. Basically what I meant was "make Sentinel ranged damage equal to Blaster ranged damage and Scrapper melee damage." I'd leave Sentinel melee damage as is and just remove their inherent. Then I'd change the in game text to read something like: "You're a heavy assault blaster. Your inherent power is the armor and mez protection that Blasters lack."

[drbuzzard]

53 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Odd since I soloed it with MoITF rules at max diff on my fire/bio sent. Granted, it was slow as fark.

Well you never joined us when I tried to put a team together (you weren't on). Some of the MoITF stalwarts do have sentinels, but not many so coordination is an issue. Previous runs have just been grabbing PUGgers, and that has been less than successful. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by drbuzzard

[Haijinx]

It would definitely be possible to do a MoITF at a reasonable speed with 8 Incarnate Sentinels as long as they had decent builds. 

[drbuzzard]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

It would definitely be possible to do a MoITF at a reasonable speed with 8 Incarnate Sentinels as long as they had decent builds. 

Yes, I don't doubt that. But I have not pulled it off with a bunch of PUGgers on the team. Someone always dies. 

 

Though the competition has moved on to 4 character no inspiration runs. In theory this should make it easier to get a team together, it's not been done. Partly I don't try to do it because I really don't want to see how hard sents will lag. 

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'd leave Sentinel melee damage as is and just remove their inherent. Then I'd change the in game text to read something like: "You're a heavy assault blaster. Your inherent power is the armor and mez protection that Blasters lack."

So, the VEAT inherent*. 😄

 

* yes, I know they technically have one...and it's practically useless

[Bill Z Bubba]

@Kranikand I ran our races in the 4th mission of the ITF. Swapping paths for the second run. It went as expected with his blaster finishing first both times but what surprised all of us was that my sentinel was never that far behind him.

 

Edit: He runs a fire/fire/mu blaster and my sent is fire/bio, as mentioned earlier.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

Well you never joined us when I tried to put a team together (you weren't on). Some of the MoITF stalwarts do have sentinels, but not many so coordination is an issue. Previous runs have just been grabbing PUGgers, and that has been less than successful. 

 

I'd be interested in this. Just to get the time on the board. Feel free to ping me with a time some random night and I'll do my best to be around.

[nihilii]

10 hours ago, oldskool said:

(Hi Warmth, no one likes you!).

...I kinda liked Warmth for a long while on my fire/sr. Topping off health between groups. Coupled with Master Brawler in panic recovery moments. The odd heal on Lore pets and teammates.

 

It's probably meh in the grand scheme of things, but I like it enough as a side addition to the rest of the fire epic.

[Sovera]

I read this whole thing before posting. I have to say it is disappointing and tiring to read the endless bickering and back and forth spreadsheet talking. @underfyre with his claims that are never substantiated and spreadsheets that are shown to have either rotation or math errors, @Monos King simple request of a test being deflected over and over, even @Obitus diatribe.

 

Now, I'll say his upfront. I think Iv'e been around long enough to be understood I don't hate any of the persons I've named and that I am not someone who is aggressive. I think. Someone correct me if I'm actually these things.

 

But guys, these arguments get TIRING. Spreadsheets, links to City of Data, math. For the love of god. We need actual testing. Go out, do things, report on your findings!

 

If someone said to me 'well fah, your Fire Armor builds can't solo X AV because it is mathematically proven that...' I would not spend pages and pages arguing with the person. I would hop into the test server and test it. If it was true I accept it. If it is not I prove the claim is false.

 

We don't NEED ALL THIS BICKERING! The thread could be a quarter of its size if right at the start someone started a test and invited others to show what they could do. Instead there is this love for arguing.

 

When someone has claims what we need is testing. Someone says their Blaster can do X? Then do X and show us what you got. Someone claims their Sentinel can do X better? Go do X, report to us. So far the testing that has been done in the later pages shows Sentinels slightly behind despite the loudness of Blaster superiority.

 

 

There is currently a Scrapper test that is the Trapdoor mission. I've tried it on my Fire/Fire Sentinel (75% resists, 45% S/L) and the poor thing tried three times and died three times (can't hover blaster). I reckon a Blaster would do better by killing faster. I don't recall a single Blaster doing better than their melee counterparts though.

 

I have looked at the same test the first time I saw it and poo pooed about some of the times because my FA builds are so much damage fuufufufu and etc and etc, but instead of arguing about it I TOOK THE DAMN TEST, and got my expectations lowered by having worse times than the best Scrappers (so yes, I have wider AoEs, more survival, Burn is amazing, but I'm always a minute to a minute and a half behind the better Scrapper times).

 

 

Guys, for the love of God, lets be adults here. Pick a test, show your results. Pylons, Trapdoor mission (I heartily recommend this one though the narrow tunnels cuts down on the strength of hover blasting), or something else. I love the pylon thread regarding to this. No spread sheet talk. People go, test, post build and results. There. No maths, no arguing. This is what they got. Do what you want with it. See where it can be improved by adding or removing procs or changing the rotation. But instead of bickering the changes are tested and results are posted. Is it better? Did it make no difference? Work from there on.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

Pick a test, show your results.

 

3:36 pylon time. 305ish DPS. Hybrid assault core and pyronic judgement were used.

This place it ahead of my claws/sr brute and sr/claws tank but behind my claws/sr scrapper.