I've got a bone to pick with you... Adjusting Spines for the modern day.

[SeraphimKensai]

Spines is a pretty unique powerset when you break it down but it has a a few issues.

1. It has to suffer redraw on every attack.

2. It has a relatively low DPA damage, this is because it has no superior or extreme damage attacks.

3. It's secondary effect does too little for too short of a period.

 

I'm hesitant to suggest any changes due to how many people use these in farming, so I'm going to attempt to list a couple suggestions aimed at non-farm related improvements but there will likely be some carryover.

 

Suggestions for Consideration:

1. Introduce a no redraw option, this will help on animation times by elimination of extra time for redraw when you use a pool power or such.

2. Spines deals the bulk of it's damage via lethal, which as everyone knows is heavily resisted. Therefore increasing the duration of spine toxicity x3 could be interesting as it would make the secondary effect a lot longer lasting than currently but the DoT is minor so it wouldn't be overall too overpowered (but useful for mobs like Fake Nemesis, Paragon Protectors, or phasing mobs like Illusionists when those mobs are near death.

3. Kind of a stretch change, but... Reverting Impaler's range nerf and then turning it into a snipe/fast snipe so it does bonus damage out of combat would be an interesting case study leaning into the ranged aspect of Spines making it more unique.

4. This one is a bonus one but merely cosmetic, but changing the power animations to color change the green toxic in the costume creator so you could have it be any color you want. I figured if we're implementing a no redraw option then this is just sitting next to it ready to be worked on.

 

Overall I think these changes would reasonably help Spines Melee users while having a minimal amount of positive net change for farmers.

 

I'm open to suggestions or further discourse as well. As always thanks and best wishes.

[Galaxy Brain]

So, the no redraw / by extension being able to color the "poofs" of green toxins (or hide them!) would be sick, def agree there.

 

Lethal / Tox combo could be explored more sure, but tbh this is a larger issue that IIRC is on the radar when it comes to damage type balance throughout the game. Even with it being mostly lethal, the way Spines deals damage leads to excellent performance even outside of farm environments so it doesn't really need too much help.

 

Impale becoming a snipe is actually kind of interesting though. It's the worst ST attack in the set for sure, but the long wind up seems like it could fit that theme. Again though, it doesn't seem too necessary.

[arcane]

I think Spines is ok... it’s a clear tradeoff of S/T potency in favor of AoE power, but it does what it does well.

 

EDIT: Agree about redraw and color changes though.

Edited May 21, 2021 by arcane

[MTeague]

Impale can be nice to stop runners on a Stalker / Scrapper without taunt aura).

I wouldn't mind if it's animation were sped up. 

 

I think Claws used to have a similar "wind up and here's the pitch!" animation for Strike or something a long, looooong time ago. 

 

Somehow I don't recall having redraw issues on every attack if I chain several spines attacks in a row.

It is an issue if you do various pool attacks (cross punch / epic snipe / air sup), though.

 

[aethereal]

I think that shaving the animation time of Spine Burst down a little is all it really needs, plus cosmetic stuff and no-redraw (which I assume everything eventually gets the katana treatment).

 

 

[Lazarillo]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

(which I assume everything eventually gets the katana treatment).

The latest big patch fixed the animation issues "No Redraw" caused for various weapon sets.  Now it's just a matter of proliferating said option to Spines, and VEATs, and epic/patron pools...

[Haijinx]

Yeah, Spines definitely is a lagging set.

 

 

[SeraphimKensai]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Yeah, Spines definitely is a lagging set.

 

 

Nice sarcasm @Haijinxbut that's why I was trying to keep my suggestions in check to not really benefit farming much.

 

Adding No Redraw options helps everyone have smoother attack chains and the dev team seems to be going that way almost unilaterally across the board with powerset that have drawing issues. 

 

Being able to change the green toxic vfx is cosmetic and helps people role playing.

 

Increasing the DoT time on the toxic on the attacks technically helps everyone but it's not really adding upfront burst damage so it's not going to really benefit farmers much as farms already kill mobs really quick. I figured it's more beneficial towards players running missions where a mob might run off or phase or bubble, etc.

 

My suggestion for impale really doesn't benefit a farmer as a farmer is going to be inconstant combat so they wouldn't really get bonus snipe damage.

 

 

@aetherealI honestly wouldn't mind spine burst's animation being quicker myself but I figured that might of been too much to ask for.

 

@Galaxy Brain

@MTeague

Spines has always been one of my favorite sets; I think for me the most appealing thing with Spines as always been having a nice mix of melee/ranged/AoE. The ranged is really unique on an otherwise melee centric set but it just works. Sure it doesn't have the burst of say energy melee and I get that, just trying to think up ways to lean it's the set's more unique function. Adjusting impale to function like a snipe/quick snipe might be the best of both worlds gets a stronger open ona. Single Target via snipe, but a fast cast version to help with the long windup of it's animation in combat.

 

GB I know you're usually on point with numbers, the DoT for spines as always felt underwhelming. I am sitting on the beach drinking a beer at the moment so I don't have my PC handy but I wonder how spines' DoT compares to Fire's DoT? Or maybe the toxic dot could be changed to do something else like debuff Regen or HP? Maybe that's too much but would be a unique secondary effect for a melee set.

[arcane]

23 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

The latest big patch fixed the animation issues "No Redraw" caused for various weapon sets.  Now it's just a matter of proliferating said option to Spines, and VEATs, and epic/patron pools...

I think the Page the implements the following will be tremendously popular and successful:

 

- No more redraw for ANYONE.

- No more powersets without customizable colors. Even weapon sets have effects that could/should be colored.

- Mass proliferation of Minimal FX options.

 

If they could do these 3 things, I can’t see any result for them but high praise.

 

[SeraphimKensai]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

- No more redraw for ANYONE.

- No more powersets without customizable colors. Even weapon sets have effects that could/should be colored.

- Mass proliferation of Minimal FX options.

 

If they could do these 3 things, I can’t see any result for them but high praise.

 

I agree, giving people options how their powers work allows for so much more storytelling, role playing, or just overall creativity.

[SeraphimKensai]

@RMS33I thought about the idea of changing damage types via a swap ammo sorts of configuration and settled for being able to change the green toxic vfx to different colors or off. Spines already has a limited toxic DoT component. In my suggestions I proposed increasing the length of it to allow it to be more beneficial over a heightened period of application as opposed to introducing more burst damage. I think spines'burst damage is lower than other sets because of how spines has some decent options for AoE and it's limited DoT.

 

But yes if there was a button you could press to make your spines switch from toxic to fire, or cold, or electric, or whatnot that would be cool albeit at probably more effort.

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Nice sarcasm @Haijinxbut that's why I was trying to keep my suggestions in check to not really benefit farming much.

 

Adding No Redraw options helps everyone have smoother attack chains and the dev team seems to be going that way almost unilaterally across the board with powerset that have drawing issues. 

 

Being able to change the green toxic vfx is cosmetic and helps people role playing.

 

Increasing the DoT time on the toxic on the attacks technically helps everyone but it's not really adding upfront burst damage so it's not going to really benefit farmers much as farms already kill mobs really quick. I figured it's more beneficial towards players running missions where a mob might run off or phase or bubble, etc.

 

My suggestion for impale really doesn't benefit a farmer as a farmer is going to be inconstant combat so they wouldn't really get bonus snipe damage.

 

 

@aetherealI honestly wouldn't mind spine burst's animation being quicker myself but I figured that might of been too much to ask for.

 

@Galaxy Brain

@MTeague

Spines has always been one of my favorite sets; I think for me the most appealing thing with Spines as always been having a nice mix of melee/ranged/AoE. The ranged is really unique on an otherwise melee centric set but it just works. Sure it doesn't have the burst of say energy melee and I get that, just trying to think up ways to lean it's the set's more unique function. Adjusting impale to function like a snipe/quick snipe might be the best of both worlds gets a stronger open ona. Single Target via snipe, but a fast cast version to help with the long windup of it's animation in combat.

 

GB I know you're usually on point with numbers, the DoT for spines as always felt underwhelming. I am sitting on the beach drinking a beer at the moment so I don't have my PC handy but I wonder how spines' DoT compares to Fire's DoT? Or maybe the toxic dot could be changed to do something else like debuff Regen or HP? Maybe that's too much but would be a unique secondary effect for a melee set.

I hadnt intended to be sarcastic.

 

Slow animations, no balance changes, a fairly weak secondary effect, redraw and the rest.  It seems like a relic, lagging behind the times. 

[SeraphimKensai]

Just now, Haijinx said:

I hadnt intended to be sarcastic.

 

Slow animations, no balance changes, a fairly weak secondary effect, redraw and the rest.  It seems like a relic, lagging behind the times. 

Ah I thought I was picking up sarcasm. Personally I think all the old school sets should get a once over or so for some modernization, some definitely need it more than others, but I've been playing spines lately so thought it would be a good opportunity to bring up spines for the time being.

[Naraka]

Just going to say, as a Spines/DA Stalker, I ADORE Impale.  Not it's damage but its animation.  It's an old animation that used to be shared with Claws' Slash (I think) that was changed as well as EM's Stun (which was also changed).  I think it's the only power left with that animation.

 

For it's long wind-up, I would wholeheartedly accept giving it full range (70-90ft) instead of shortening it's animation to make it a "better" DPS attack.  Making it a snipe?  I dunno...I am weary of how snipes were changed.  It's only a short side-step to eventually just giving it a short animation (the only part of the power I really like, wind-up and all).  Slightly improving it's secondary effect wouldn't be a bad change either in place of a shorter animation (give it some more slow, some more immob and increase it's DoT).

 

That all said, the only power I have an issue with is Spine Burst.  It's the only "slow" animation I'm not a fan of but rather than replacing it, why not give it a cool mechanic like a +res buff during its animation (you're in place covered in spines armor) so at least you're just coasting while it's doing its thing.

 

As for redraw, I desperately want a "no body spines" customization.  Having a no-redraw option is probably not an option (mainly because it should be the default).  Just remove the redraw from it and add a "no FX" option for the customization.

 

Also, what if Spine's Build Up was similar to Fiery Embrace where it has an extended +Toxic Damage buff instead of increasing the DoT itself?

 

Hah, I'm contradicting myself on the power creep argument on that last one.  The rest seems like utility (+range impale, protect user during Spine Burst animation, no FX option) than power though.

5 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I hadnt intended to be sarcastic.

 

Slow animations, no balance changes, a fairly weak secondary effect, redraw and the rest.  It seems like a relic, lagging behind the times. 

I'm of the opinion that, rather than racing to the future (which the game really isn't....I mean, what challenging content is on the table here?) we should be seeking to preserve the core.

 

Despite not being a premiere set, Spines still performs quite admirably in AoE (and adequately in ST on Stalkers).  It's a rather moderate/slow set which I don't want replaced.  It should be like the "Knockout Blow" of AoE sets for melees.  Yeah, TW and all that but I said "like" so it's fine.

 

As for balance changes, has anyone looked at Battle Axe?  Kinetic Melee could also use a bit of help.  I'm all for helping lagging sets a bit but Spines is pretty decent.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Naraka

[SeraphimKensai]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

Also, what if Spine's Build Up was similar to Fiery Embrace where it has an extended +Toxic Damage buff instead of increasing the DoT itself?

OMG yes. Why didn't I think of it before, turn Spines' Build Up into Plant Manipulation's Toxins. Let's add extra toxic damage to all the attacks.

[aethereal]

7 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

@aetherealI honestly wouldn't mind spine burst's animation being quicker myself but I figured that might of been too much to ask for.

My feeling is:  Spines is pretty fine as an AoE-focused set.  Having a damage aura in the primary is great, Throw Spines is really good, and in fact I think Ripper is pretty solid (at least for characters who can keep enemies close with taunts).  But the first and most standard AoE kinda sucks.  Having a PBAoE is nice, especially at lower levels.

 

I don't think that Spine Burst should be made into an incredibly amazing power that's best in class.  I think it should get maybe a 15% bump in DPA through lowered animation time.  Solve redraw, do that, and my sense is: Spines is fine.

[Menelruin]

I'm only here to mention that the topic title made me think this was about giving Spines a stylistic option to look more skeletal, which would look badass as hell.

 

All the other suggestions are cool too, of course.....but sharpened femurs with red trails after them?  FRICKIN' METAL, bruh!

[SeraphimKensai]

1 hour ago, Menelruin said:

I'm only here to mention that the topic title made me think this was about giving Spines a stylistic option to look more skeletal, which would look badass as hell.

 

All the other suggestions are cool too, of course.....but sharpened femurs with red trails after them?  FRICKIN' METAL, bruh!

Sounds cool.

[Zeraphia]

I find myself in an awkward position on this thread, because quite frankly, I would rather have Lethal damage than Toxic damage for a lot of content (both are heavily resisted, Toxic isn't necessarily any better and in many cases is much worse). That out of the way, I think that some reduction on the animation times and some damage buffs on specific powers could indeed improve the set's performance a lot. Personally, I think EM may be a bit over-tuned, but I think some small-moderate buffs on Spines is indeed warranted to bring its ST capacities up to par with its competitors. 

[SeraphimKensai]

Before making this thread I had been playing a lot of my spines/bio Brute, but since this thread I rolled up a Dark/Thorn Domi.

 

Thorny Assault is very similar to Spines, with slight modifications like thorntrops instead of quills. The pool has a superior and extreme damage attack. And instead of the recharge slow on each of spines attacks there's significant defense debuff. The set still suffers from redraw issues.

 

But that -defense secondary effect is just sexy. Spines gets the short end on secondary.

 

 

[Ry]

Another thing about Spines that's always stopped me using it the fact you can change the spine type - but not the colour of the power effects themselves. So even if I have for example, I could have sleek, metallic spines of bright gold (ooo, shiny!) but the projectiles still produce bile green effects, and on impact the effect of hitting the enemy is bright red/green. I've always hated this. We can do so much with power customization now but this is one of the sets that never fully experienced it (imho). I wanna shoot gold acid out my spines! T-T

 

OR RED, FOR BLOOD! 😮

 

Same goes for Thorny Assault.

 

But yes, the redraw problem is also valid!

[Menelruin]

On 5/25/2021 at 8:10 AM, Ry said:

Another thing about Spines that's always stopped me using it the fact you can change the spine type - but not the colour of the power effects themselves. So even if I have for example, I could have sleek, metallic spines of bright gold (ooo, shiny!) but the projectiles still produce bile green effects, and on impact the effect of hitting the enemy is bright red/green. I've always hated this. We can do so much with power customization now but this is one of the sets that never fully experienced it (imho). I wanna shoot gold acid out my spines! T-T

 

OR RED, FOR BLOOD! 😮

 

Same goes for Thorny Assault.

 

But yes, the redraw problem is also valid!

 

[rex monday]

On 5/25/2021 at 8:10 AM, Ry said:

Another thing about Spines that's always stopped me using it the fact you can change the spine type - but not the colour of the power effects themselves. So even if I have for example, I could have sleek, metallic spines of bright gold (ooo, shiny!) but the projectiles still produce bile green effects, and on impact the effect of hitting the enemy is bright red/green. I've always hated this. We can do so much with power customization now but this is one of the sets that never fully experienced it (imho). I wanna shoot gold acid out my spines! T-T

 

OR RED, FOR BLOOD! 😮

 

Same goes for Thorny Assault.

 

But yes, the redraw problem is also valid!

I have no opinions on the balance side. I'll leave that for others to discuss. But this is my main concern with spines. I want to be able to change at least the color of that toxic splash they do, if not be able to eliminate it entirely.

Edited December 25, 2021 by rex monday

[EyeLuvBooks]

+1 on the No Redraw suggestion but I have only one other complaint about the set: The manic wavy-hand animation for the T2 (I think) power. That one animation keeps me from playing this set...like ever.

 

Fix the redraw and PLEASE for the love of God and your own bodies fix that one animation.

[Lazarillo]

7 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

+1 on the No Redraw suggestion but I have only one other complaint about the set: The manic wavy-hand animation for the T2 (I think) power. That one animation keeps me from playing this set...like ever.

That was actually fixed in the late days of the game's original lifetime.  Barb Swipe used to do the berserker-ish animation, but it does not anymore (except when enemies use it). Now if only we could have an alternate, at least, for Spine Burst...

Edited December 29, 2021 by Lazarillo