Right Click > Challenge to Duel

[GraspingVileTerror]

Except, @Monos King . . . Greycat kind of has a point.

PvP is decidedly hostile to a lot of people.

There is a cultural impetus in City of Heroes already that has been largely formed specifically because PvP is so " . . . out there" from the rest of the play experience.  Competition isn't really in this game's DNA.

I mean . . . think of real life.  If you're sitting down with some friends at a restaurant for a nice chat over some desserts, how would you feel if two chads walked in and started smashing each other in the face?

Does that seem . . . normal to you?  Healthy?

 

There is absolutely a time and place for PvP.  PvP Zones and Arenas, with consenting parties.  Spectators can join and observe under their own cognizance as it is.

But open-world PvP duelling brings with it an element of trolling potential and disruption to the otherwise more tranquil places that exist in this game.  I would personally not see that shattered.

 

 

PARTICULARLY when the option to duel anyone anywhere PRIVATELY already exists:

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/29229-right-click-challenge-to-duel/?tab=comments#comment-366362

[Coyotedancer]

18 hours ago, Monos King said:

I would be very much for this. Would be great for casual PvP, and another method of giving people exposure to it as well. Being able to PvP from what's essentially their front door would be a good incentive for people that just don't want to go out of their way to incorporate it into their glancing fun time.

 

I dunno...

Somehow I seriously doubt that "exposure" is going to make people suddenly interested in PvP.

 

In this game you'd be more likely to get "Hey! Take it to the Arena, you two!" 😝 

[Monos King]

9 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

PvP is decidedly hostile to a lot of people.

There is a cultural impetus in City of Heroes already that has been largely formed specifically because PvP is so " . . . out there" from the rest of the play experience.  Competition isn't really in this game's DNA.

Disagree, that is decidedly an opinion. It's as much of a point as "there is a time and a place for RP. I hate seeing it in Atlas Park. I don't want to see it because I despise RP, and new avenues for RP shouldn't exist because I don't want to be reminded it is a part of the game that people enjoy." That wouldn't slide, would it?

 

Competition not being in this games DNA is also not a point. That's also very much an opinion, determined by how people decide to play this game. That's what's great about CoH, you can pretty much do what you want. Now whether or not this game is conducive to balanced PvP is subject to much, heavy discussion amongst us PvPers, but that's something else. 

 

 

[Monos King]

3 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

In this game you'd be more likely to get "Hey! Take it to the Arena, you two!"

Hahaha, perhaps. But you'd be surprised at how many people I've gotten into, or convinced to re-enter PvP just by casually asking them if they wanted to fight me or my pets.

[Ston]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

Disagree, that is decidedly an opinion. It's as much of a point as "there is a time and a place for RP. I hate seeing it in Atlas Park. I don't want to see it because I despise RP, and new avenues for RP shouldn't exist because I don't want to be reminded it is a part of the game that people enjoy." That wouldn't slide, would it?

 

 

 

Completely agree. The same can be said about any opt-in player-generated content such as costume contests or pylon testing. 

 

I'd also imagine that, if this kind of open-world PVP were even possible, players would go out of their way to use some corner of the map and local chat as a dedicated 'dueling area' the same way we would in Siren's Call. I believe this is also done under Atlas in Recluse's Victory. 

 

I think player-generated content is by-far the best way to keep people engaged on these servers. PVP, IMO, is an obvious candidate for that. 

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

Disagree, that is decidedly an opinion. It's as much of a point as "there is a time and a place for RP. I hate seeing it in Atlas Park. I don't want to see it because I despise RP, and new avenues for RP shouldn't exist because I don't want to be reminded it is a part of the game that people enjoy." That wouldn't slide, would it?

 

Competition not being in this games DNA is also not a point. That's also very much an opinion, determined by how people decide to play this game. That's what's great about CoH, you can pretty much do what you want. Now whether or not this game is conducive to balanced PvP is subject to much, heavy discussion amongst us PvPers, but that's something else.

 

 

I ... honestly wouldn't call the first an opinion. If it is, it's backed up by a *lot* of arguing all the way back to the live forums.

 

Plus, given that most RP is local (or in team or in tells,) it's not really a good counterexample. You can't tell unless you get close if two or more people are RPing - assuming they *are* using local. You certainly *can* tell that Superdude and xXxJusticeSkoutxXx are fighting, if they were able to just suddenly duel in the middle of Atlas Park, and from a good ways away.

 

As far as the "competition in the DNA," well... on the one hand, all you have to do is read or listen to dev descriptions since beta to know PVP was planned as a part of it, yes. The flip side of it is that other than the zones and arenas - which are decidedly out of the way - people aren't put into any sort of competitive atmosphere. Even villainside it tends to be cooperative - your entire team works together, there are no alternate missions or side missions that can sabotage the rest of the team or another team indirectly, much less directly. The best I would probably say is that while it was planned from the beginning, it's never been a central focus compared to the cooperative environment and so, yes, I could see why people would see a duel between heroes (possibly less so villains?) as being disruptive or ... being given a generally unwelcoming reception.  I mean, people hated it when all they had to do was go into a PVP zone, click an NPC, say "ok" and leave, feeling that *that* forced PVP on them when they didn't want it... regardless of if that zone was busy or not, or there was a 30 second timer or what have you. 

[Greycat]

9 minutes ago, Cirque said:

I'd also imagine that, if this kind of open-world PVP were even possible, players would go out of their way to use some corner of the map and local chat as a dedicated 'dueling area' the same way we would in Siren's Call. I believe this is also done under Atlas in Recluse's Victory. 

 

I think player-generated content is by-far the best way to keep people engaged on these servers. PVP, IMO, is an obvious candidate for that. 

 

I don't necessarily disagree with the first, but I have two things immediately jump to mind:

1. While most PVPers might do this, you know there would be people who wouldn't - and those would the people who would be remembered doing it (even if not by name) and referred to - whether their intent is malicious ("let's interrupt the RPers/costume contest/the lulz") or not ("hey, I found this duel command, want to try it?")

 

2. What would be the difference, then, if it just did what I believe was suggested several posts ago - drop the people who want to duel into an instance? Even better (?) if they had some portion of the zone as an arena map instance? Yes, it would keep people who might want to see it from seeing it right away, but if the participants are running off somewhere to duel privately, wouldn't that have the same effect, in essence?

 

As for the last, yes, player generated content will always help - we can do it faster than the devs, in many instances, if we're given the tools. I don't know how much "you can duel open world" will help that, though. There are PVP events broadcast and advertised now, after all - do you think these would generate *more* interest or just have the same people who are already interested, for the most part? Or even have them on more than they are now? (I don't know how much the PVP community is growing as a percentage of the whole community, honestly.)

[Monos King]

14 minutes ago, Greycat said:

You can't tell unless you get close if two or more people are RPing - assuming they *are* using local. You certainly *can* tell that Superdude and xXxJusticeSkoutxXx are fighting, if they were able to just suddenly duel in the middle of Atlas Park, and from a good ways away.

Oh no, in my experience there is a lot of RPing that occurs in open places. It's been that way since live, with hubs like pocket D actively encouraging it. Even now you'll see it in local, in general, in your teams, even seeing people integrate RP into how they play the characters and complete objectives. And even though I don't prefer RP, that's ok. Also I wasn't disagreeing with the idea that PvP is hated by some (as that much is definitely true as you noted).

 

The point is, even if someone does not like seeing something, that's not a a good reason to prevent it from existing in the game. As hilarious as VileTerrors "Two chads walking in" description was, people still enjoy different things, and they all exist in the game. The scorn some have isn't valid counter point, it's just a bit self-entitled. One could even call it non-inclusive, if that resonates more for some.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Monos King

[golstat2003]

21 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Oh no, in my experience there is a lot of RPing that occurs in open places. It's been that way since live, with hubs like pocket D actively encouraging it. Even now you'll see it in local, in general, in your teams, even seeing people integrate RP into how they play the characters and complete objectives. And even though I don't prefer RP, that's ok. Also I wasn't disagreeing with the idea that PvP is hated by some (as that much is definitely true as you noted).

 

The point is, even if someone does not like seeing something, that's not a a good reason to prevent it from existing in the game. As hilarious as VileTerrors "Two chads walking in" description was, people still enjoy different things, and they all exist in the game. The scorn some have isn't valid counter point, it's just a bit self-entitled. One could even call it non-inclusive, if that resonates more for some.

 

You make some good points, but I still think if both competitors would teleported into an arena instance, that would be fine.

[Monos King]

6 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

You make some good points, but I still think if both competitors would teleported into an arena instance, that would be fine.

Well if you feel that way it's all good, and I do acknowledge the other sentiments here. Just throwing in my cents for why I'd be in favor. 

[America's Angel]

14 hours ago, Greycat said:

As for the last, yes, player generated content will always help - we can do it faster than the devs, in many instances, if we're given the tools. I don't know how much "you can duel open world" will help that, though. There are PVP events broadcast and advertised now, after all - do you think these would generate *more* interest or just have the same people who are already interested, for the most part? Or even have them on more than they are now? (I don't know how much the PVP community is growing as a percentage of the whole community, honestly.)

 

It would help get eyes on events for sure. I imagine the platform under the Atlas statue would 100% be where everyone dueled.

 

(Or in the cage in Pocket D, which I imagine would be opened up if this system was ever implemented.)

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

I imagine the platform under the Atlas statue would 100% be where everyone dueled.

...as if all the other characters standing around Ms. Liberty didn't add enough lag to the area. There's an arena for this; if open-world duel requests are implemented, accepting should immediately teleport both participants to an arena instance, returning them when one is defeated. And only implemented if there is a clearly-available option 'Allow duel invitations' that defaults to 'No'.

[America's Angel]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

...as if all the other characters standing around Ms. Liberty didn't add enough lag to the area. There's an arena for this; if open-world duel requests are implemented, accepting should immediately teleport both participants to an arena instance, returning them when one is defeated. And only implemented if there is a clearly-available option 'Allow duel invitations' that defaults to 'No'.

 

Already possible:

1. Type /arenalist
2. Set up match. Pick Atlas map.
3. Right click on other player, select "Invite to Arena Event"

[srmalloy]

20 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Already possible:

1. Type /arenalist
2. Set up match. Pick Atlas map.
3. Right click on other player, select "Invite to Arena Event"

Yes, but that's a multi-step process; the OP, from their proposal, wants to be able to have a one-step 'invite to duel' option to let them start a match right where they are in a PvE zone, spamming the fight to everyone around them in the zone. And that's what people seem to be objecting to; they don't want the peanut butter on their chocolate, and don't care what the flavor will be like when it happens.

[America's Angel]

48 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Yes, but that's a multi-step process; the OP, from their proposal, wants to be able to have a one-step 'invite to duel' option to let them start a match right where they are in a PvE zone, spamming the fight to everyone around them in the zone. And that's what people seem to be objecting to; they don't want the peanut butter on their chocolate, and don't care what the flavor will be like when it happens.

 

I would be surprised if the dev team add an open-world duel request system that behaves almost identically to what we already have. (Instanced.) They'd have to create a custom PvP map with dedicated spawn points (and observer spawn points) for every map instance in the game. (That's hundreds of maps.)

 

A better thing to focus on, IMO, is allowing base builders the option to flag PvP on/off in their bases. That way people can host public events.

[Menelruin]

Because everyone knows, Superheroes are mature and logical and always get along, and NEVER suddenly lose patience and start duking it out with eachother in the middle of a city......

[Alchemystic]

I'd like to see this sort of thing being introduced, but I would add the caveat that police/arachnos drones would also turn hostile, just to discourage players from engaging in PvP in what are supposed to be non-combat zones.

 

I'd also ensure that PvP can't be enabled in places like Pocket D, Echo Plaza or RWZ, so it isnt disruptive to the activities there.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Luminara]

On 5/28/2021 at 3:16 PM, golstat2003 said:

If you right click and send duel to someone, and they accept, then let it teleport them both to the arena setup kiosk in the arena. There you have your duel option, and no one else has to see it. 🙂 

 

Wouldn't even need to teleport to the arena, actually.  Just phase them.

[Menelruin]

3 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

I'd like to see this sort of thing being introduced, but I would add the caveat that police/arachnos drones would also turn hostile, just to discourage players from engaging in PvP in what are supposed to be non-combat zones.

 

I'd also ensure that PvP can't be enabled in places like Pocket D, Echo Plaza or RWZ, so it isnt disruptive to the activities there.

 

 

I imagine if you start fighting in Pocket D, the DJ instantly KOs you.

[MTeague]

22 hours ago, Menelruin said:

Because everyone knows, Superheroes are mature and logical and always get along, and NEVER suddenly lose patience and start duking it out with eachother in the middle of a city......

Super espectially ones name Stark or Rogers.

[MTeague]

I'm never going to like PvP as a general rule.

 

Too many early scarring experiences with it in Diablo 2 Hardcore.  In that game, someone could declare hostility and attack you unexpectedly, and in hardcore mode for Diablo 2,  if your character died, even once, for any reason, even internet lag, they STAYED DEAD. Forever.  Permadeath. No getting back up.  Your Deeds of Valor will be Long Remembered on your gravestone, that's all.  D2 had a pack of folks who got their jollies running around being Player-Killers and TRYING to murder the characters you'd invested so much effort in.  You very rapidly learned to ONLY play password-protected games, ONLY with people you knew well, and it was a round table discussion among the group if we wanted to admit someone new / hand out the passwords we used.  That left a lifetimes worth of "F That" in my reaction to any PvP.

 

That said.  A consensual duel?  Both parties choosing to accept duel invites, both parties choosing to accept the fight? Sure. Go nuts. I don't care if you duke it out in the Arena, or under the Atlas Statue, or in a Hazard Zone, or the Top of the Talos Hill, or some wierd remote nook in Eden. I

 

But it probably DOES make sense to restrict it to "Not within X many yards of a Trainer or other NPC Contact".  Gotta let folks who are entirely uninterested level up, adjust costumes, get their next missions, etc. 

[Menelruin]

What everyone would hate, but would be REALLY funny, is if anyone starting a duel in a non-PVP area suddenly became a valid target for ANYONE ELSE who wanted to join in....a la, "Dammit, Hulk and Thing are at it again, we need to neutralize them both before they cause too much collateral damage!"

[Black Zot]

6 hours ago, Menelruin said:

What everyone would hate, but would be REALLY funny, is if anyone starting a duel in a non-PVP area suddenly became a valid target for ANYONE ELSE who wanted to join in....a la, "Dammit, Hulk and Thing are at it again, we need to neutralize them both before they cause too much collateral damage!"

 

That just opens up the most common of the long list of "force-flag someone for pvp so you can gank them" exploits - jump into their aoe while you're flagged and they're trying to fight pve mobs.

[Menelruin]

1 minute ago, Black Zot said:

 

That just opens up the most common of the long list of "force-flag someone for pvp so you can gank them" exploits - jump into their aoe while you're flagged and they're trying to fight pve mobs.

Oh, I'm not seriously suggesting it, it would just be funny (and narratively make sense) if it happened.

[XaoGarrent]

On 5/28/2021 at 7:21 PM, America's Angel said:

 

Just wanted to correct this: the reason PvPers largely rejected the live devs changes is because those changes were bad, not because PvPers wanted to "abuse broken stuff". PvPers in CoH have a vested interest in good game balance. Because a well balanced game is a competitive one.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks

 

Give whatever reasons you want, any changes would have been treated the same way, because it was in fact about "abusing broken stuff." Not that the PvP community could ever openly admit that, knowing how bad it would make them look. But they don't need to: Actions speak louder than words, and the actions and behavior of the PvP community was not consistent with what you claim ever, or at all. Rather it was a pattern of behavior consistent with exploitation, something that absolutely defined this game's PvP.

Edited June 2, 2021 by XaoGarrent