Observations upon return to CoH

[Yomo Kimyata]

9 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Let me know if you would like to see 80mill in about 20 minutes of dedicated time. I do that about once to twice a week, so maybe 30-40 minutes of actual time spent for about 140-180 million. So, maybe 250 mill an hour, no farming necessary.

 

My ears just started to twitch.

[DrBasics]

Just wanted to drop in here and remind everyone that EVERY play style is valid and no one is wrong for how they enjoy the game. I am noticing a lot of people not really understanding this. Some people seem to think those that farm or "speed through their +4 / x8 missions" only do it because they are money-loving greedy hogs who wish they could just have a button they can push to get their infamy.

 

In reality, they just enjoy that style of play. Rushing through enemies and annihilating groups in seconds, then speeding to the next group to see how much havoc and destruction they can cause. The same way that people are saying that those who wish to take it slow shouldn't be chastised should also be said for those who enjoy the rushers. My only wish is that people be TRULY unbiased. You can't say that you hate people who try to dictate the way others play, then also say that it's okay to hate on those people who enjoy the speedy, damage play style.

[biostem]

42 minutes ago, DrBasics said:

Just wanted to drop in here and remind everyone that EVERY play style is valid and no one is wrong for how they enjoy the game. I am noticing a lot of people not really understanding this. Some people seem to think those that farm or "speed through their +4 / x8 missions" only do it because they are money-loving greedy hogs who wish they could just have a button they can push to get their infamy.

 

In reality, they just enjoy that style of play. Rushing through enemies and annihilating groups in seconds, then speeding to the next group to see how much havoc and destruction they can cause. The same way that people are saying that those who wish to take it slow shouldn't be chastised should also be said for those who enjoy the rushers. My only wish is that people be TRULY unbiased. You can't say that you hate people who try to dictate the way others play, then also say that it's okay to hate on those people who enjoy the speedy, damage play style.

 

It's not a matter of which playstyle is valid or correct - it's a matter of communicating to your teammates so you can come to some sort of agreement as to which particular playstyle you all will adopt.  One issue that stands out in particular is the instance of a player joining an existing team, then not adapting to the playstyle that that team is already running with.  I do not think it is reasonable to assume that you can join an existing group and expect them to change to fit your favored style of play...

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

 

It's not a matter of which playstyle is valid or correct - it's a matter of communicating to your teammates so you can come to some sort of agreement as to which particular playstyle you all will adopt.  One issue that stands out in particular is the instance of a player joining an existing team, then not adapting to the playstyle that that team is already running with.  I do not think it is reasonable to assume that you can join an existing group and expect them to change to fit your favored style of play...

This is it exactly.  The Khan I joined and ranted about earlier was NOT advertised as a +4.  I did not realize it until we loaded in.  I asked for it not to be +4 but the leader said "they looked at team composition" and decided we could handle it.  I still kind of wish I could take him to Port Oakes docks for a long walk.

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, Snarky said:

This is it exactly.  The Khan I joined and ranted about earlier was NOT advertised as a +4.  I did not realize it until we loaded in.  I asked for it not to be +4 but the leader said "they looked at team composition" and decided we could handle it.  I still kind of wish I could take him to Port Oakes docks for a long walk.

 

It would be nice if the current team settings were easier to see.  That being said, did you ask what the team settings were when you joined?  Communication is a 2-way street...

[RikOz]

9 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

That said, there's a chance that if you opened your mission window and clicked the "show more" button that Indigo's information could be displayed there to re-read. I'll do this sometimes if I get a "multiclick" bug where the game thinks I clicked my mouse twice and closes a window immediately after I open it. The information lost isn't always there, but it often

This was actually on a mission for Crimson, where for some reason you have to go report to Indigo and she tells you a bunch of stuff, but doesn't give you a new mission - you have to talk to Crimson again to get the next one.

[RikOz]

7 hours ago, DrBasics said:

Just wanted to drop in here and remind everyone that EVERY play style is valid and no one is wrong for how they enjoy the game.

Indeed. I'm one of those who likes to go through a mission and track down and defeat every single mob, whether doing so is required or not. Like, what kind of hero would I be if I just left half a cell of Arachnos or Council sitting there in Paragon City, just because I got their boss? I'm baffled by players who say they stealth past everything and just kill the boss at the end. To me, that's just leaving a bunch of XP on the table. So I won't group with players like that.

 

Actually, I play pretty much entirely solo. I'm pretty anal about having a "system" for progressing through maps, so somebody else going the "wrong" way is just going to stress me out, and me complaining about it is just going to annoy the other guy, so it's best all around if I just play solo :D

[UltraAlt]

On 7/8/2021 at 5:55 PM, DrZeus said:

Every time I see yet another broadcast for “Posi1 TF LF3M” or “SBB”… I think of the damage these do to newbies.  One of the things I always liked about CoH was the community – it was so newbie friendly, so welcoming and someone could jump in and find comrades almost instantly.  Not so much now.  Now you’re more likely to be turned away from a group because you’re not the right level and they didn’t bother say that on the broadcast… or wind up joining a task force only to find out that the heroes aren’t actually playing the game, they’re trying to skip past all the content and you’re stuck standing at the door.

 

Yep. In full agreement.

Basically, if you see someone listing stuff like that you are going to get on a team that wants a speed run. They are jaded on the content and really are just doing it for the merits.

So, when it comes down to it, those are really the teams to avoid if you are a new player, just coming back, or  *gasp* actually run the content.

 

On 7/8/2021 at 5:55 PM, DrZeus said:

truth be told it was the reason I never cared for CoV as much as CoH.  The community was worse.

 

I didn't say it. Honest! The OP did.

 

On 7/8/2021 at 5:55 PM, DrZeus said:

And the second part… which I think feeds the first are all the “quality of life” improvements.  I recognize these weren’t generally done by the homecoming team, they were a lot of changes when CoH went free to play…  Being able to level incredibly fast… and then for no drawback double that rate.  Travel powers at level 4 instead of 14.   Being able to teleport from one zone to another without ever really seeing any of them through supergroup portals or Ouroboros at level 1.  Being able to pick up an additional 3 powers right at level one.  These things make the game easier.  Faster.  But meanwhile… the journey is somewhat lost.  I have fond memories of exploring King’s Row… trying to get to the rooftops to take out Circle of Thorns rituals – but no new player would ever do that.  They’d just fly up. 

 

Back then, it really made THE CITY seem big and awe inspiring. It was hard to get around at low levels. Fighting was a challenge. You really felt like you were achieving something as you leveled up.

All the running around on Task Forces was secretly a tour of THE CITY.

 

Now it's like, "well, I outleveled that arc already. Where should I go next?" - that is, if you weren't already farmed to 50.

 

On 7/8/2021 at 5:55 PM, DrZeus said:

Or that when fighting Vahlizok.. you can kill the doctors and then run away and the zombies themselves become mindless and stop chasing you (and won’t team up either, they’ll only defend themselves without the doctors around).  They’ll probably miss that stuff if for no other reason the leveling is so fast they’re only fighting Vahlizok for an hour and then moving to the next villain group.

 

I have seen plenty of players complain about how dangerous the Vahzilok are.

As you have indicated, those players haven't taken time to figure out what is going on with the villain group.

There is much Leroy Jenkins, bull-in-the-china-shop, and Hulk-smash going on. Throw in the "I'm a level 8Zilion incarnate. Don't get in my way, kid. I got this."

 

On 7/8/2021 at 5:55 PM, DrZeus said:

what they’ve done to mitigate the drawbacks.

 

If you are running a task force and you don't want it to be a speed task force. Tell people in advance that you are running a "leveling" or "XP" taskforce. And never give away the star. (same goes for regular content when it comes down to it)

 

If you join other people's teams, look for teams where they announce what zone they are in or what arc they are on. (do the same for other people).

 

List the name of the Taskforce and the lowest level that can be on the team when recruiting. (and make sure to entice other with the lure of the team having cookies ... or pancakes/waffles...)

 

You don't have to get 2xp.

You don't have to use any of the P2W stuff.

You don't have to farm.

You don't have to join a level 50 team when you are level 1 (or 30 for that matter).

 

Recruit for the kind of content you want to run.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2021 by UltraAlt

[UltraAlt]

On 7/10/2021 at 9:53 AM, DrZeus said:

Perhaps a solution would be to have the P2W vendor have a setting you can get where you just get a million merits all at once.  I mean, if content is to be bypassed anyway, just let people do it directly.  Don't force people to play the game... or even pretend to.  Just let them get their max level uber characters right from the get go, like they do with bases.  Press a button, get the resources, and do what you like.

 

This is what farming is for. Power Leveling and looting without thinking or worrying about the level or difficulty of the enemies.

Sit at the door and get dragged to 50.

 

Farming is for the people that don't want to play the game and want to go directly to the end-game.

 

You don't have to Farm. (missions or the AE)

It does happen, but most of the time there isn't some farmer running around "psst, hey, kid. You only level 1. You want a hit of real power? Come door sit for me and I'll make you ding so fast you won't believe it! I'll have you at 50 in no time. Am I the best and coolest gamer you ever met?"

 

 

[DrZeus]

On 7/16/2021 at 2:35 PM, ZemX said:

As far the +4/x8 thing goes, it's common exactly where you'd expect it to be common:  If you join a kill-most ITF  or a PI radio team, it's usually 50+4/x8.  The occasional Dark Astoria team seems to be there as well since it's now an Incarnate zone and lots of people running around there are already at +3 level shift.  TinPex, iTrials, etc.   

 

This is something I'm figuring out... I tend to run a LOT of alts.    I can't even call them alts, because I have no main.  So I've been in tons of positron task forces.  However, yesterday I had a character high enough to do a synapse task force and they asked if people wanted to do a speed run.  I indicated I did not.  However... the speedy version we did wasn't that bad.   Yes, we had one blaster who just kept trying to go through and clear all the missions for us.  However, many of those missions are killalls anyway... and fortunately the rest of the team kind of ignored the blaster and just plowed through taking out bad guys left and right so eventually we either caught up with him or almost did... so we at least got to participate despite that blaster.  Due to this... I'm assuming most Synapse task forces aren't speed runs, because it would be harder to do.  

 

So while I was assuming that a vast majority of the content is overrun with uber characters... it might have just been the majority of what I was doing.  If I see someone inviting for a group, I'll usually jump in.. I love groups.  But if PI is something to avoid... I should just avoid those.  (I've been in several which leveled my characters way too fast)

 

What content should be avoided in groups?  Seems like Posi task forces are highly suspect... PI radio teams are as well... not sure what tinpex is, but i've seen it advertised over and over again.  What would you suggest be avoided... and what would you suggest to look out for? (I've found so far the synapse task force and the SBB to be pretty participatory)

[tidge]

I have absolutely no problem with a player striking out on their own in "defeat all" missions if they can handle it, and wouldn't make things go faster by having 8-players stick together. The only thing I expect is that those players take care of all their own runners, since it can be pretty annoying to discover that a couple of minions were left alive... delaying the mission end for everyone.

 

Synapse can be a bit tricky because of the level (players may not have their full offense and defenses); there have been plenty of times when I've been tempted to skip entire missions (e.g. Bertha). I judge the competency of a Synapse PUG by how they split up to handle the patrol/call box missions.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

I will just point out that on live, and in every official MMO, the rules players are to conduct themselves by actually make doing things like telling a player you will boot them if they do not conform to your demands simply because you are the team leader considered an act of harassment. On live you could quite literally get a ban for booting someone from a TF for not submitting to your commands( this to my chagrin happened to me more then a few times during my early control freak phase of TF leading on live, and did in fact help shape me into a better team leader) The default rule on just about any and every single MMO is if you for any reason do not like how another player is playing, is its on you to remove yourself from the team, not try to force the other to leave the team. The leaders ability to boot a team member is supposed to be used only for when you have someone actively violating the rules of player conduct themselves, and you do not want to wait around for a GM to resolve the issue. At least that is my experience with MMO and how they treat this topic in general. HC is obviously not required to abide by the same strict standards real MMO tend to adhere to. Considering how tolerant they seem to be on people talking in very graphic and intimate detail in public chat exposing anyone and everyone to peoples ERP, it seems rather clear HC is not exactly trying to uphold much in the way of social standards.

[Dark Dove]

2 hours ago, DrZeus said:

not sure what tinpex is, but i've seen it advertised over and over again

 

Tin Mage and Apex (TinPex) task forces started in the Rikti War Zone, run together back to back usually, and almost always as fast as possible because it is a gateway to incarnate components and strong merit rewards all at the same time.  You must have unlocked your incarnate alpha slot to join these task forces, so you must already be level 50.

 

2 hours ago, DrZeus said:

What content should be avoided in groups?

 

Only Peregrine Island radio missions, Grandville papers, specifically advertised speedruns or specifically advertised +4 content, Imperious task forces, Dark Astoria (the new one) missions, are common fast moving or higher difficulty.  Everything else is on a team by team basis.  I've run Positron 1/2 it feels like hundreds of times and maybe eight out of ten are just normal, fight the stuff at normal level, do the objectives as they come, only skip the giant last maps that are full of mobs and would take an hour to clear.  The other two out of ten will be XP runs where the leader sets the team at +2 or something for higher rewards or they will be speed runs where only the objectives are attended as fast as possible.  Your chances are pretty good, at least on the server I play, to get a pretty normal team most of the time.  Unless your standards for "normal" are too stringent, and then well... that's on you.  You can always make your own teams if that's the case, so nothing lost really.

 

Task forces that can't be easily done with skips are Citadel (25) and Synapse (15) on the earlier levels, both of those are full of defeat alls and require the team to clear most maps.  Penelope Yin (20) is a common speedrun task force for merits, although even that doesn't happen as often as it used to, most people don't mind clearing those maps because freaks and council are easy. Manticore (30) can be done speedily or slow as well, it's an either or situation, and Numina (35) is pretty slow even when you try to go really fast.  Anything can be done at maximum speed, but again, people usually say when that's the goal, or you are empowered to ask when you join a team so that you can make an informed decision about whether to continue with that team or not.

 

2 hours ago, DrZeus said:

Yes, we had one blaster who just kept trying to go through and clear all the missions for us.

 

It doesn't matter if someone clears the mission, you're still allowed to stay in the mission as long as you like as long as the leader doesn't advance the arc.  Fight whatever you like, they'll (the person who cleared it) just end up waiting outside the mission while everyone else defeats mobs and stuff.  I've seen this happen plenty of times on lots of different content.

[Snarky]

3 hours ago, DrZeus said:

This is something I'm figuring out... I tend to run a LOT of alts.    I can't even call them alts, because I have no main.  So I've been in tons of positron task forces.  However, yesterday I had a character high enough to do a synapse task force and they asked if people wanted to do a speed run.  I indicated I did not.  However... the speedy version we did wasn't that bad.   Yes, we had one blaster who just kept trying to go through and clear all the missions for us.  However, many of those missions are killalls anyway... and fortunately the rest of the team kind of ignored the blaster and just plowed through taking out bad guys left and right so eventually we either caught up with him or almost did... so we at least got to participate despite that blaster.  Due to this... I'm assuming most Synapse task forces aren't speed runs, because it would be harder to do.  

 

So while I was assuming that a vast majority of the content is overrun with uber characters... it might have just been the majority of what I was doing.  If I see someone inviting for a group, I'll usually jump in.. I love groups.  But if PI is something to avoid... I should just avoid those.  (I've been in several which leveled my characters way too fast)

 

What content should be avoided in groups?  Seems like Posi task forces are highly suspect... PI radio teams are as well... not sure what tinpex is, but i've seen it advertised over and over again.  What would you suggest be avoided... and what would you suggest to look out for? (I've found so far the synapse task force and the SBB to be pretty participatory)

Synapse “speed run”. The thing gas mostly kill alls and a couple “kill most” to accomplish the goals.  Oh no, some Blaster is killing a bunch of stuff.  Somebody stop him the defender did not get to shoot it with anything yet.  

Edited July 18, 2021 by Snarky

[Ghost]

 

 

Why is advertising for needing more TF participants a bad thing?

Why does it automatically mean it’s a speed run?

 

I put together PUG TFs all the time, and have never run a speed TF in my life.  In fact, I have removed players who joined, and decided they were going to speed through it after being asked not to.  I have also left TFs when I found them to be unadvertised speed runs.

Some of the elitist, holier than thou attitudes around here, are simply confusing.  

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Ghost

[Snarky]

25 minutes ago, Ghost said:

 

 

Why is advertising for needing more TF participants a bad thing?

Why does it automatically mean it’s a speed run?

 

I put together PUG TFs all the time, and have never run a speed TF in my life.  In fact, I have removed players who joined, and decided they were going to speed through it after being asked not to.  I have also left TFs when I found them to be unadvertised speed runs.

Some of the elitist, holier than thou attitudes around here, are simply confusing.  

 

You kick peeps from TFs.  Then immediately complain about elitism.  
 

does your head threaten to explode? 

[Ghost]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

You kick peeps from TFs.  Then immediately complain about elitism.  
 

does your head threaten to explode? 

It has been lately with this forum.

 

if I recruit a non speed TF, and a player is consistently running off and completing sections - should I ignore it?  If the others on the team are expecting a casual run and it’s being ruined by one individual, am I the one in the wrong?  If I have to ask several times for someone not to ruin it for others, eventually something has to be done.

 

funny it would be you who griped at me.  The person who constantly has bad PUG experience.  Shame on me for trying to maintain the experience that I promise at the start of the TF.  Maybe you wouldn’t have so much to complain about, if your team leaders cared about what was going on.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Ghost

[ZemX]

11 hours ago, DrZeus said:

What content should be avoided in groups?  Seems like Posi task forces are highly suspect... PI radio teams are as well... not sure what tinpex is, but i've seen it advertised over and over again.  What would you suggest be avoided... and what would you suggest to look out for? (I've found so far the synapse task force and the SBB to be pretty participatory)

 

Thing is, anything that is repeatable and has a decent pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is going to be something most people want to do quickly.  So that's most TFs and Trials.  The exceptions are when people tell you it's a "casual" or "kill most" or "kill through" which all basically mean "we're not speeding".  But that still may involve a high powered steamroller team depending on what mix you end up with.  Radio missions teams are usually this way.  They aren't there for the end of mission rewards.  The defeats along the way are the whole point.  You might find mid-level radio teams tolerable.  "Casual" specifically (usually) means the lead isn't concerned about speed OR high-difficulty, so people interested in that stuff stay away.. mostly.

 

Beyond that, it sounds like your best fit is a contact mission team.  This is someone doing story arc content from someone on their contact list.  It can be somewhat varied.  It might take you to different zones.  But people doing them are usually not in a hurry to complete.  And you might try striking up some banter while on such missions to see who bites.  It can be a fun side thing.  The game, let's be honest, doesn't provide a great deal of story to engage with. 

 

But here's the bad news... this is about the least common type of mission team I've seen advertised.  If you want this sort of thing, you may have to be willing to lead it.  Send out a request for team to do "contact missions".  Maybe give the contact name, zone, and level/settings you're running at.  That's always good info to have.  But be prepared to not always fill that team quickly.   Best do it blueside for the larger population, sad to say. 

 

Lastly, RP teams on Everlasting seem to be very casual in terms of the gameplay and difficulty.  You don't see them that often in public LFG channels so if you're interested in that I'd go investigate RP forums and talk to people.  There's probably channels to join for more of that, though you'll want to be sure just what kind of RP you're getting into.   There's... different kinds.  I ended up on a casual RP team last night on Everlasting that wasn't advertised as such and it was a lot of fun.  Just someone doing mission arcs in First Ward who advertised they were doing so if anyone else wanted to come along.  It must attract the sort of person who enjoys a bit of in-character banter while doing missions because we all ended up doing that.  

[tidge]

7 hours ago, Snarky said:

You kick peeps from TFs.  Then immediately complain about elitism.  
 

does your head threaten to explode? 

 

And if thy PUG offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole PUG should be cast into hell.

 

If someone is forming a SF/TF and doesn't want to "speed", consider running it with only 4 members but set at x8. Not only will you reduce the chance of having one (or heaven forbid, a majority) of PUGgers that would prefer to play another way, but the larger spawn sizes will slow things down.

 

We've already had the discussion about why folks won't turn up the difficulty on a Synapse TF (Too slow! Waa!) so there really aren't than many more dials to turn. I suppose players can run content all solo with signature summons/temporary summons/henchmen and just pretend to be "boss of the world."

[Snarky]

4 hours ago, Ghost said:

funny it would be you who griped at me.  The person who constantly has bad PUG experience. 

I complain (loudly) about the bad ones. It is cathartic and hopefully instructive.

 

I never quit or kick.  Okay, if someone was starting to get verbally abusive, you got to kick. If someone is deliberately screwing a badge run (or wont stop when instructed) you probably got to kick.  Someone is running off to kill mobs.....yeah, I am not seeing it.  Someone sets the difficulty to high and will not listen to reason.  I got to see how this train wreck plays out.  Do the freight cars actually stand on end like in Hancock?

[Coyotedancer]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

Lastly, RP teams on Everlasting seem to be very casual in terms of the gameplay and difficulty.  You don't see them that often in public LFG channels so if you're interested in that I'd go investigate RP forums and talk to people.  There's probably channels to join for more of that, though you'll want to be sure just what kind of RP you're getting into.   There's... different kinds.  I ended up on a casual RP team last night on Everlasting that wasn't advertised as such and it was a lot of fun.  Just someone doing mission arcs in First Ward who advertised they were doing so if anyone else wanted to come along.  It must attract the sort of person who enjoys a bit of in-character banter while doing missions because we all ended up doing that.  

 

That matches my experiences on Ev. Even the missions teams that aren't pitched as roleplay teams tend to be pretty chatty, and are typically fairly laid-back in terms of speed and difficulty setting.

 

I would warn DocZ of one thing, though, that was mentioned up-thread. There are a fair number of us on Everlasting who like to exemplar. His odds of ending up on one of those mid-level teams with an exemp-ed level 50 character or two is fairly high, and he expressed some reluctance about that. No one is going to be throwing around iPowers when they're running with a level 35 group, but between having finished, potentially attuned IO builds and an available extra power or two compared to the natural level 35s in the group they might still fall into "overpowered" territory for him.  

[tidge]

53 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Do the freight cars actually stand on end like in Hancock?

 

For the answer to this question, talk to Infernia in the RWZ.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

I never quit or kick.  Okay, if someone was starting to...

 

That's the thing.  Everyone has a line. I don't see a team lead kicking one stealther as a problem.  If it was advertised no-speed, and that person got reminded it was no-speed and they STILL won't listen?  Boot.   It's not  hurting anyone.  They're already fighting without that jerk anyway.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

 

That's the thing.  Everyone has a line. I don't see a team lead kicking one stealther as a problem.  If it was advertised no-speed, and that person got reminded it was no-speed and they STILL won't listen?  Boot.   It's not  hurting anyone.  They're already fighting without that jerk anyway.

 

In the case of a "stealther", the team lead can stay in the mission and not advance the storyline. The first time this happens, the PUGmates may make a "quick exit", at which point the person with the star can explain their preferred approach and not to make a quick exit in the next mission. Until the storyline is advanced, the team will be at the mercy of the player with the star, so they are a captive audience... so expect folks to let everyone else know how they feel about the approach.

 

For example: when I was "held captive" by the team lead of a Penny Yin TF who wanted to destroy every door in the PPD station "for the badge", despite everyone else leaving, I took the time to identify several Ouroboros missions that could be easily farmed solo for Door Buster... presumably while the team lead was using P2W Shadow Maul to destroy doors. The team leader let me know he thought I was being a jerk, but he didn't kick me.

[DrZeus]

16 hours ago, tidge said:

I judge the competency of a Synapse PUG by how they split up to handle the patrol/call box missions.

I wouldn't say competency... I would say... ability to memorize something they've done before.

 

Your experience may differ, but I try not to conflate the two things.  And honestly.. i'm usually a little daunted when that happens.  I ran a posi2 the other day and noticed that people were making a beeline to the next mission before the map marker happened.  That was to me at least... NOT a good sign.  They're not playing the game, they're running the numbers.  They're... on autopilot so to speak.  Personally, I prefer it when the games are randomized enough so you can't do that any more, but that's obviously a game design, not a player strategy issue.