Mind Control/Mass Confusion recharge needs a buff

[wjrasmussen]

On 7/10/2021 at 7:20 AM, th0ughtGun said:

Lord yes PLEASE fix Mind Control! I LOVE the mind control concept but the way it was implemented in this game is just bad. Mass Confusion < Seeds of Confusion, Mass Hypnosis < Static Field, Telekinesis = Nearly Useless. I mean COME ON!! Please revamp Mind Control! 

 

lol sorry, but I needed to vent... Mind Control is a trigger for me...

Not a suggestion, but I often have thought how fun it would be to mind control an NPC to keep as a pet for a period time.   It have to have some solid limits, but might be fun to pick up a  few pets.

[Super Atom]

25 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

That's support set specific.  People from MMO's gravitate to thinking in a box and choose empathy.  Not HC's fault they do so.  Its a list to show a trend and Fire blast is highly chosen across all sets for a reason.  

 

It's safe to assume some support sets get chosen based on what their reputation should be and the personality of the person picking it.  If we're talking damage and strength of a character to excel on their own merit people tend to go for the more efficient power choices.  So yes Empathy is highly picked for nostalgia, Fire is highly picked because it's the best.  

 

I'd reckon such the divergence in selection of Mind control between Doms and Controllers that there may be some efficiency evaluation going on.  

 

Except

 

Thermal / Cold Domination are far more powerful than anything above it on controllers/defenders/Masterminds and don't even get me started on def/res sets and how horribly out of whack those are. This list is proof of nothing other than players vaguely choose what they hear is good and not what is actually the strongest.

 

The term for what you're doing is called confirmation bias. You've found a year old thing that said there was a lot of mind doms created and have now used that to support your argument that the set is "good" because you like it and people who think otherwise are somehow just bad at the set. Respectfully, I have no interest in going in a forever loop of clashing opinion on the use of an outdated graph for evidence of a sets balance. At the end of the day, the Homecoming team has yet to let me down on their balancing decisions and if they did review control sets, at this point I have trust they'd probably do a good job on it.

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Super Atom

[Kaballah]

3 hours ago, Mezmera said:

 In summary yes "rookies" would throw their hands up and say Mind control is trash when from my perspective it is anything but.

 

 

"You have the right to respond CONSTRUCTIVELY to an idea.

If you don’t like it, no problem.  Just say “I don’t like it”.  You don't have to say why if you don’t want to.  If you have a reason why you don’t like it, please tell us why.  Focus your response on the idea, not the person. "

 

[Mezmera]

27 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

Except

 

Thermal / Cold Domination are far more powerful than anything above it on controllers/defenders/Masterminds and don't even get me started on def/res sets and how horribly out of whack those are. This list is proof of nothing other than players vaguely choose what they hear is good and not what is actually the strongest.

 

 

 

People that play the obvious assault sets i.e. Scrappers, Stalkers, Blasters, Doms, Brutes and Tanks tend to want to make the most efficient machine they can make.  People that play support may be a bit more casual and are stuck thinking they need to bring some sort of heal0r.  

 

Cold is very powerful, I know I have one.  But my mindset is not stuck in fanciful thinking, I'm more prone to play something I find to be the most efficient, especially with IO's and how teammates will already be decked out with them.  Which a great deal of that list DOES show the trend.  Why else would there have been such a high amount of Titan Weapon's scrappers if it weren't good?  That's really the only major thing that has changed since this list was made.  

 

Yes you can't infer everything from the list, but it does give you a good idea of what works well.  Being that doms are all about assault where someone with a mindset of support would be rooted out and someone geared more towards making an efficient character would be more prevalent and Mind control being so high kind of tells me it's good.  Then having played it and seeing what I can do compared to my blasters, tanks, stalkers and debuffers....  Yeah Mind is A-okay.  

Edited July 12, 2021 by Mezmera

[Mezmera]

36 minutes ago, Kaballah said:

 

"You have the right to respond CONSTRUCTIVELY to an idea.

If you don’t like it, no problem.  Just say “I don’t like it”.  You don't have to say why if you don’t want to.  If you have a reason why you don’t like it, please tell us why.  Focus your response on the idea, not the person. "

 

 

I have, you're saying it's bad with little to back up your claim beyond your opinion.  I show you a list where people think otherwise.  Then drawing on my years of wizardly knowledge about the subject. 

 

What's there for me not to like?  Mind has been like this for ages, so the onus it seems would be for YOU to prove why it's not that good wouldn't it?  Maybe some back story you may have?  A lousy experience perhaps?

 

But I still indulged you and detailed reasons and links on why you shouldn't turn already my best character into a god.  I have to agree with @SwitchFade that these topics keep popping up don't move the needle any further for those of you asking for a major buff to a powerset that at best could use a slight tuning.   

Edited July 12, 2021 by Mezmera

[EmperorSteele]

I mean, I used to be a Mind cheerleader, but then I played, like, other ATs and other Controller sets, and my opinion on Mind has become a bit more nuanced. And then I went and made an SOs only Mind/Time build and it was the slowest, most tedious thing EVER. Yeah, I didn't take a single point of damage going through a 0/4 radio mission, but it took ALMOST AN HOUR.

 

It's kinda disheartening =(

[SeraphimKensai]

My personal opinions for an overhaul to the Mind Control Set for Controllers/Dominators would be the following:

 

	Power	Level	Effect
	Levitate	1	Ranged, Moderate DMG(Smash), Foe Knockup, -Fly
	Dominate	1	Ranged, Moderate DMG(Psionic), Foe Hold
	Mass Hypnosis	2	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Sleep/Immobilize - Fly
	Nightmare	6	Ranged Chain, Moderate DMG(Psionic), Foe Sleep/Fear(Special)
	Telekinesis	8	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Hold, Repel
	Mass Confusion	12	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Confuse
	Total Domination	18	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Hold
	Terrify	26	Ranged (Cone), Minor DMG(Psionic), Foe Fear(Special)
	Confuse	32	Ranged, Permanent Foe Confuse

 

The idea here is that it tries to redistribute Mind Control's powers to address some issues within the set and shortcomings revealed with the introduction of newer control powersets.

 

First off Mesmerize is moved from lvl 1 to lvl 6, renamed Nightmare and added a chained effect, dealing moderate Psionic Damage to targets it chains to, and has a special built in that causes Sleeping mobs to also be Feared. Mobs that aren't asleep are not feared, but are put to sleep. This allows you to build off of Mass Hypnosis.

 

Secondly, Mind Control has always lacked an AoE Imob to help set up containment, so I moved Mass Hypnosis here, and envisioned reducing the sleep duration/recharge of the power by half. However, mobs that are awakened are placed under a short Immobilization as they regain their bearings. Moving this power to lvl 2 from lvl 8, allows to help set up for the revamped Mesmerize power above, Nightmare.

Dominate has been moved to allow taking it at lvl 1 as all other control sets allow you to take your single target hold from lvl 1.

Mass Confusion is moved from being available at lvl 32, to level 12. The Confuse duration/recharge reduced to reflect Seeds of Confusion, which balances Mass Confusion and Seeds from the Plant Control Set.

Confuse is moved from lvl 6 to lvl 32. Mind Control has also dealt with never having a true pet like other control powersets. To address this, Confuse will now only work on 1 target as a time, and the effect will last until the target is killed or Confuse is used on another target. Elite Bosses/Monsters/Giant Monsters/AVs/Heroes are immune.  The base recharge is doubled, which will still allow you to stack applications on 1 target, as in the case if you want to confuse an NPC boss. The confused target scales to the player's combat level.

 

 

What do you all think? Did I miss anything? I tried pretty hard to visualize how to balance this with other control sets.

[SwitchFade]

12 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

My personal opinions for an overhaul to the Mind Control Set for Controllers/Dominators would be the following:

 

	Power	Level	Effect
	Levitate	1	Ranged, Moderate DMG(Smash), Foe Knockup, -Fly
	Dominate	1	Ranged, Moderate DMG(Psionic), Foe Hold
	Mass Hypnosis	2	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Sleep/Immobilize - Fly
	Nightmare	6	Ranged Chain, Moderate DMG(Psionic), Foe Sleep/Fear(Special)
	Telekinesis	8	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Hold, Repel
	Mass Confusion	12	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Confuse
	Total Domination	18	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Hold
	Terrify	26	Ranged (Cone), Minor DMG(Psionic), Foe Fear(Special)
	Confuse	32	Ranged, Permanent Foe Confuse

 

The idea here is that it tries to redistribute Mind Control's powers to address some issues within the set and shortcomings revealed with the introduction of newer control powersets.

 

First off Mesmerize is moved from lvl 1 to lvl 6, renamed Nightmare and added a chained effect, dealing moderate Psionic Damage to targets it chains to, and has a special built in that causes Sleeping mobs to also be Feared. Mobs that aren't asleep are not feared, but are put to sleep. This allows you to build off of Mass Hypnosis.

 

Secondly, Mind Control has always lacked an AoE Imob to help set up containment, so I moved Mass Hypnosis here, and envisioned reducing the sleep duration/recharge of the power by half. However, mobs that are awakened are placed under a short Immobilization as they regain their bearings. Moving this power to lvl 2 from lvl 8, allows to help set up for the revamped Mesmerize power above, Nightmare.

Dominate has been moved to allow taking it at lvl 1 as all other control sets allow you to take your single target hold from lvl 1.

Mass Confusion is moved from being available at lvl 32, to level 12. The Confuse duration/recharge reduced to reflect Seeds of Confusion, which balances Mass Confusion and Seeds from the Plant Control Set.

Confuse is moved from lvl 6 to lvl 32. Mind Control has also dealt with never having a true pet like other control powersets. To address this, Confuse will now only work on 1 target as a time, and the effect will last until the target is killed or Confuse is used on another target. Elite Bosses/Monsters/Giant Monsters/AVs/Heroes are immune.  The base recharge is doubled, which will still allow you to stack applications on 1 target, as in the case if you want to confuse an NPC boss. The confused target scales to the player's combat level.

 

 

What do you all think? Did I miss anything? I tried pretty hard to visualize how to balance this with other control sets.

Uh, I don't really want a single target permanent confuse pet. That's one of the unique aspects of mind, no single pet. Confuse as is is fine, I can spam it on multiple targets. No vote on one target only.

 

Mesmerize is fine at 1. Pulsing sleep would be nice, like elec.

 

Hard no on changing MC to be a seeds clone, seeds needs a detune. MC is the signature power, I don't want a single pet.

 

Containment activating is not because mind lacks aoe immob, it has it. Containment should activate on mind primary powers, like other sets. No vote on changing mass hypnosis in such a way. Better if it pulsed sleep, like elec.

 

Sleep us a very powerful tool, what it needs is a refresh, as we have seen in other sets that pulse sleep, versus once and done.

 

Mind shouldn't be yet nother clone of other sets, it should be different.

 

 

[arcane]

Think I’m gonna respec my Mind/Ice over from pvp to pve and see how it goes. Haven’t done Mind Control pve since live. Made a build for it yesterday. Will let you know if I observe any of this alleged gimpfest, but color me skeptical.

[Vanden]

31 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Mass Confusion is moved from being available at lvl 32, to level 12. The Confuse duration/recharge reduced to reflect Seeds of Confusion, which balances Mass Confusion and Seeds from the Plant Control Set.

 

Seeds is the same confuse scale as Mass Confusion, scale 20. So this would just be reducing the recharge of MC, which has already been pointed out to be broken.

[arcane]

Man the pros here really gush about Static Field but I don’t really get it. I just can’t see how even a pulsing sleep is worth much once AoE DoT is out there whether from you or a teammate.

[RageusQuitus2]

If mind control is so op or so shitty, then can't we prove it.

 

We do pylon tests, door tests, and that crazy ae mish designed to wreck players.  But we cant get the few of ya going at it hard in this thread to compete in game?  Versus competing who can come up with the wittiest put down.

 

Showcase your toon, make a friggin video.  Put a definitive stamp on this thread with your badass or just plain bad toon. 

 

Just a thought.  Cause id love to see the in game carnage.

[Super Atom]

24 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

If mind control is so op or so shitty, then can't we prove it.

 

We do pylon tests, door tests, and that crazy ae mish designed to wreck players.  But we cant get the few of ya going at it hard in this thread to compete in game?  Versus competing who can come up with the wittiest put down.

 

Showcase your toon, make a friggin video.  Put a definitive stamp on this thread with your badass or just plain bad toon. 

 

Just a thought.  Cause id love to see the in game carnage.

 

Nearly every character can solo +4/x8 content due to how the game is designed. Under performance would be a numerical issue, not an in game one.

[Mezmera]

37 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

If mind control is so op or so shitty, then can't we prove it.

 

We do pylon tests, door tests, and that crazy ae mish designed to wreck players.  But we cant get the few of ya going at it hard in this thread to compete in game?  Versus competing who can come up with the wittiest put down.

 

Showcase your toon, make a friggin video.  Put a definitive stamp on this thread with your badass or just plain bad toon. 

 

Just a thought.  Cause id love to see the in game carnage.

 

I don't stream nor do I feel a need to show off my recreational activity, I'm from the day when you played your Nintendo and were content in that. 

 

If you have a twitch/whatever account and want to come along and video tape me while I play then sure.  I would need a good camera man but I'd have no qualms in showing what my dom can do.  No pylon's or farms though, just good old fashioned +4/8 Carnies, Arachnos, DA missions and what have you.  

[RageusQuitus2]

15 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

Nearly every character can solo +4/x8 content due to how the game is designed. Under performance would be a numerical issue, not an in game one.

And despite that these tests exist to identify whats "best".  And they do compare numbers.  Dps, pylon times, how deep into the ae mission you get.  Not saying those tests are for this, but that the playerbase does compare whats better.  

[RageusQuitus2]

3 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

I'm from the day when you played your Nintendo and were content in that.

Started with pong console so i feel ya.  Just suggesting that we dont need to argue theoretical performance.  Weve got a game world to prove our point and all kinds of digital tools to show it.

[arcane]

A pylon test seems pretty irrelevant to measuring the potency of a control set..

[Mezmera]

8 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

Started with pong console so i feel ya.  Just suggesting that we dont need to argue theoretical performance.  Weve got a game world to prove our point and all kinds of digital tools to show it.

 

I treasure my anonymity and recreation well above showing off.  I hear you though, seeing is believing.   

[RageusQuitus2]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

A pylon test seems pretty irrelevant to measuring the potency of a control set..

What are you talking about.  Its the perfect test.  Did the pylon move?  Nope.  Controls worked.

 

Kidding just showing that we do have players comparing in game performance.  Not suggesting this test.

[Super Atom]

@Kaballah Your post is being brigaded by never changers, have solace in that it didn't stop the EM changes, so there might be hope anyway.

[Senbonbanana]

On 7/9/2021 at 10:09 PM, Kaballah said:

A more thoughtful overhaul of the Mind Control set would be nice but I'm shooting for something small, simple and immediate.  This single change would be a tremendous help for the set, it's needed this since Live.

 I agree with this 100%.  Reducing the cooldown would help the set tremendously, and would be an immediate band-aid fix, but the whole of Mind Control (and all control sets in general) need some tuning.

 

I made a post on the Dominator forums, but I'm on-board for Mind Control getting a permanent pet option as part of a larger fix to control sets.

[Greycat]

59 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

If mind control is so op or so shitty, then can't we prove it.

 

Issues with these tests: What *are* we testing for?

 

Nobody's going to do pylon times with a controller. We're not there for DPS.

How long you can hold a boss or group? Not everything's based on holds.

Highest rank of something you can control? *sleeps all the AVs in MLTF* OK, done, next?

Highest rank of something you can defeat solo? First GM defeated solo was by an Illusion controller on SOs back in the day. Next?

Time to finish a mission? That's as much dependent on the secondary, pools and slotting as on the primary. Someone complained about how long Mind took to finish a mission a few posts back. They're welcome to try an Earth/FF 'troller. Enemies die of old age. Or my Ice/Emp, which is much the same. But they're great with other secondaries (or on a dom.) So that's fairly irrelevant.

 

There's frankly very little that can be shown objectively - AOE controls having a recharge that's too long, in general, with the current game? Sure. Seeds probably being too short? Yep. But frankly, most of the rest is "I like this," "I don't," or "I don't see a use for this."

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, Super Atom said:

@Kaballah Your post is being brigaded by never changers, have solace in that it didn't stop the EM changes, so there might be hope anyway.

 

If someone isn't able to grasp how well they can do on a Mind character wouldn't being unable to adapt qualify them as a "never changer"?  I'm all for changes where it makes sense, reverting EM back to what it was with a cute new mechanic was fine, you want to change my dom into a god, sure.  

 

But maybe some of the problem lies within those that are unable to adapt their play style.    

Edited July 12, 2021 by Mezmera

[Super Atom]

21 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

If someone isn't able to grasp how well they can do on a Mind character wouldn't being unable to adapt qualify them as a "never changer"?  I'm all for changes where it makes sense, reverting EM back to what it was with a cute new mechanic was fine, you want to change my dom into a god, sure.  

 

But maybe some of the problem lies within those that are unable to adapt their play style.    

 

It's not about you, your skill, or anyone's lack of skill. Stop trying to flex your ego it's really awkward and kind of cringey.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Super Atom

[Mezmera]

15 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

It's not about you, your skill, or anyone's lack of skill. Stop trying to flex your ego it's really awkward and kind of cringey.

 

If I can do it so can you is the gist of what I'm saying.  How easy do you want this game to become?

 

Don't assume the people here against the super buff being proposed are "never changers", that's "cringey".  

Edited July 12, 2021 by Mezmera