Changes to Fly, Hover, Afterburner, etc.

[Luminara]

59 minutes ago, Zepp said:

I should just accept that they implemented it to stop trying to provide Suggestions & Feedback

 

Yes, this is the forum for suggestions and feedback.  But you made your suggestions and gave your feedback on that topic months ago.  Revisiting the topic now, in a thread only tangentially related, despite there being no changes which warrant revisiting the topic, isn't giving feedback, it's drowning out feedback (@Jimmy has asked us explicitly not to do that); and it's not making a suggestion, it's pestering and harassing the development team who already considered and rejected your proposal.

 

Let it go.

[RageusQuitus2]

10 minutes ago, Luminara said:

But you made your suggestions and gave your feedback on that topic months ago. 

Curious if that applies to my post in this thread as well?  Im almost thinking i should either let it go (which i had) or start a separate suggestion. 

[Zepp]

To clarify, the reason I brought up the previous discussion was because it was related to my support  for the OP's assertion that Afterburner should be restored to a toggle without a time limit. I suggested that it would be reasonable, especially since Fly is disproportionately slow compared to SS & SJ. Wavicle made the false assertion that the current distribution was "correct" to which I responded with reference to data which disproved this assertion. Luminara jumped on this with arguments from authority and accusations that I was leading the discussion off topic.

 

As such, I am clarifying my statements and attempting to frame them so that it is clear that they are relevant to this discourse and not a hijacking of this thread.

 

Even if Afterburner were reverted to a non-time-limited toggle, it would still be slower than it was prior to the change (as a percentage of SS speed), As such, this is a reasonable suggestion. In fact, even if my suggested numbers were to be accepted, Fly+Afterburner would still be taking a hit (as compared to the pre-update comparative numbers).

 

As for the rest of the OP's suggestions, I do not agree with a return to toggle exclusivity between the Travel and Defense versions of the powers. It adds a needless extra step when entering/exiting combat. Also, Hover has the added benefits of flight control and Magneto flight pose (optional).

Evasive Maneuvers is not that good when paired with Fly, but is exceptional when paired with Hover to reach pre-update cap numbers without combat suppression. The only issue with EvMan is that it requires you to take an extra power.

Most of the changes were good, however, as the data suggests, the proportional speed caps were not adjusted properly. That being said, the OP's suggestion of a reversion is not a good idea, however some adjustments may be appropriate.

[Zepp]

23 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

Curious if that applies to my post in this thread as well?  Im almost thinking i should either let it go (which i had) or start a separate suggestion. 

While I think the Group Fly issue is important and related to the Travel Pool Updates addressed in this thread. This thread seems to be more focused on Travel-Defense toggle exclusivity and the Afterburner nerf. If you can clearly and specifically state your position on Group Fly/Group Teleport as pertaining to MMs, that would be a good thread to start.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Zepp said:

 Wavicle made the false assertion that the current distribution was "correct" to which I responded with reference to data which disproved this assertion.

 

No you didn't. You supplied numbers and asserted that they disproved what I said, but they do not.

Your numbers show that SS is fastest over a straightaway, such as North/South in Indy Port. If you test somewhere else, like NW/SE in St. Martial or in Dark Astoria, you'll see why they are currently balanced as is.

Again, this was gone over and over in beta. They are correctly balanced as they currently are.

[Wavicle]

9 minutes ago, Zepp said:

the proportional speed caps were not adjusted properly

 

This assertion is not demonstrated by the data but is based on an assumption.

[arcane]

14 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

This assertion is not demonstrated by the data but is based on an assumption.

That’s what I read too. It was based on his own arbitrarily defined concepts of balance and equity and nothing more.

[Rathulfr]

On 8/11/2021 at 11:09 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Nice. I'd have to change a lot to cover that end usage. As it stands, for my ranged characters, I'll leave on hover all the time and toggle fly on and off as needed.

 

For the meleers, I use powexecname binds for fly, hover and afterburner (H, J and K) so I can just click them again to turn them off.

 

/bind F12 "powexectoggleon Hover$$powexecname Fly"

 

Problem solved: this keeps Hover on all the time, and toggles Fly off and on as needed.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

21 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

/bind F12 "powexectoggleon Hover$$powexecname Fly"

 

Problem solved: this keeps Hover on all the time, and toggles Fly off and on as needed.

 

F12?

 

I'm far too lazy to have to cross that much keyboard.

[arcane]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

F12?

 

I'm far too lazy to have to cross that much keyboard.

Lol my thoughts exactly. Just stretching for powers 6 and 7 puts me out.

[Zepp]

The numbers: Testing in NW<->SE zone travel on an equal footing (travel powers between 87.95-88.00) showed that in most zones SS was 95-97% as effective as Fly and SJ was 98-100% as effective. Outlier zones where this did not hold were Boomtown, Grandville, Faultline, Skyway, and the Shadow Shards. Dark Astoria was not an outlier.

Testing at speed caps by myself and others showed differences in travel times correlated strongly with cap differences outside the five aforementioned outlier zones.

 

Furthermore, while SJ saw the largest boost (it went from 84.3% SS speed cap to 91.8% SS speed cap) Fly + Afterburner saw the greatest comparative nerf (95% to 77.1% of SS speed cap).

Making AB a toggle would raise Fly+AB speed cap to 85% of SS speed cap, which would still be an overall nerf compared to pre-update comparative performance.

The Cottage Principle suggests that the game developers give weight to precedent.

 

The Parity Principle suggests that equivalent powers should perform relatively equally.

 

Based on the numbers, both of these principles were ignored in implementation of the new caps.

Could you please point out where I am making an assumption?

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

The numbers: Testing in NW<->SE zone travel on an equal footing (travel powers between 87.95-88.00) showed that in most zones SS was 95-97% as effective as Fly and SJ was 98-100% as effective. Outlier zones where this did not hold were Boomtown, Grandville, Faultline, Skyway, and the Shadow Shards. Dark Astoria was not an outlier.

Testing at speed caps by myself and others showed differences in travel times correlated strongly with cap differences outside the five aforementioned outlier zones.

 

Furthermore, while SJ saw the largest boost (it went from 84.3% SS speed cap to 91.8% SS speed cap) Fly + Afterburner saw the greatest comparative nerf (95% to 77.1% of SS speed cap).

Making AB a toggle would raise Fly+AB speed cap to 85% of SS speed cap, which would still be an overall nerf compared to pre-update comparative performance.

The Cottage Principle suggests that the game developers give weight to precedent.

 

The Parity Principle suggests that equivalent powers should perform relatively equally.

 

Based on the numbers, both of these principles were ignored in implementation of the new caps.

Could you please point out where I am making an assumption?

Use actual numbers, not percentages.

Using actual numbers you'll see the difference in travel time (other than Teleport) is a matter of a couple seconds in most cases. THAT IS PARITY.
 

What you have not figured into your analysis is the relative ease of use of each power.

Fly is slower because of how easy it is to use and how it lets you literally get above everything.

 

Super Speed is faster because it has to deal with obstacles.

 

Teleport is faster still because of how much effort it takes.

 

Super Jump is the best of both worlds and as such is smack in the middle.

 

You've made an assumption by declaring that the OLD proportions were "correct", but there's really no basis for that.

[Aurora_Girl]

Jesus Mary cheesecake factory Christmas y'all. 

It doesn't have to be this complicated. 

 

If you want to be "a flier" bind fly to middle mouse button. Click on when needed, off when not. Leave hover and the combat maneuvering on like toggle armors. Shoot things. Profit. 

[Zepp]

I made an argument based on the stated development principle that some weight be given to precedent. I was not arguing it was "correct" as it was. In fact you can see that I am actually supporting a relative nerf to Fly+AB.

 

I use percentages because they are easier to grok. Going across PI in 1m 22s (SS) v 1m 50s (Fly) can more easily be dismissed without considering the constant feel of the disparity.

 

Furthermore, with three solid secondary effects (stealth, phasing, and momentum) SS has many more perks that you omitted in your argument.

 

My proposal would maintain the SS>SJ>Fly paradigm but make it feel like a choice rather than a RP sacrifice to choose Fly.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Zepp said:

My proposal would maintain the SS>SJ>Fly paradigm but make it feel like a choice rather than a RP sacrifice to choose Fly.

 

Except it is no sacrifice. You continue to assert or imply that flyers are losing out compared to other toons and there is simply no basis for that.

[Wavicle]

Anyway, no one in this thread has raised any points that were not raised, considered, and rejected during beta. The conversation has already been had and the current balance is what was arrived at after much debate and testing.

 

You would have to raise NEW points to have an adjustment be seriously considered, but no new points have been made.

[arcane]

10 hours ago, Zepp said:

The Parity Principle suggests that equivalent powers should perform relatively equally.

 

Based on the numbers, both of these principles were ignored in implementation of the new caps.

Could you please point out where I am making an assumption?

Well you’ve assumed running, jumping, and flying are somehow supposed to be “equivalent” for one thing. I guess vertical travel means absolutely zero to you?

 

There’s so much more to these powers than time from mission to mission. 
 

How has your analysis accounted for a flyer’s ability to be essentially immune to melee damage without moving? And, with a couple range bonuses, essentially immune to ranged damage as well on an outdoor map?

 

How has your analysis accounted for Super Speed’s stealth? Super Speed’s inability to reach some ledges at all?

 

Did you think of any of this? Or is a one variable analysis really how you think this works?

Edited August 13, 2021 by arcane

[srmalloy]

22 hours ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

Great so im mental and cant spell.  Screw you both 😀

 

I work at a hospital, and I see the same mistake in emails from both doctors and the management, so you're not alone by a long shot.

[ZacKing]

22 hours ago, arcane said:

I provided nothing but hard facts in my first reply to this thread. “This change sucks” on the other hand, is a tad bit less supported.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree here.  you can post all the numbers and nerdy math formulas you like and cry balance all you want, if it still isn't fun for me your math and numbers don't work. 

[dtj714]

A week late and $10 short - not that it would have (or did) matter anyway. COH was already the easiest/least grindy of the “old school” MMOs. Challenge was never its appeal - concept and customization was. 

 

The passage of time means that both the dev team and player base are even more tilted towards the “instant gratification” mindset. As someone else alluded to earlier, no “status quo” argument will ever find traction here. If a change = easier/faster/“better”/more, then it’s a done deal. 

[lemming]

Ever since the travel pool changes, I've been putting teleport in since the long hang time is nice.

I've never assumed flight as a "fast" power.  It's my casual go to for getting from one end of the map to the other while checking messages. I tend to pickup Evasive now more than I ever picked up Afterburner.

Superjump is still one of the more fun powers, and with the ability to leap again in mid-jump, useful in the shadow shard.

SS is probably my least favorite and I tend to use Kinetic version, more than the real one.

And I'm Infiltration is nice for those chars where a real travel power isn't in their concept.  (usually with a jetpack for those times where they need vertical)

 

I wouldn't mind Afterburner being a longer toggle maybe with a shorter cooldown.

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 

We'll have to agree to disagree here.  you can post all the numbers and nerdy math formulas you like and cry balance all you want, if it still isn't fun for me your math and numbers don't work. 

 

Every travel power is now faster than before.

 

If the fact that they are proportionally slightly different makes it less fun then I'm sorry, but that isn't a reason to change it.

[ZacKing]

On 8/13/2021 at 4:09 PM, Wavicle said:

 

Every travel power is now faster than before.

 

If the fact that they are proportionally slightly different makes it less fun then I'm sorry, but that isn't a reason to change it.

 

Faster speed doesn't mean diddly to me in caves or indoor office maps.  Zone travel is meaningless as most everyone has TT now and we're ported right to the mission door.  there's always room for improvement imo.

[Wavicle]

7 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Faster speed doesn't mean diddly to me in caves or indoor office maps.  Zone travel is meaningless as most everyone has TT now and we're ported right to the mission door.  there's always room for improvement imo.

 

If it's "meaningless" then why do you care that travel powers were made faster? It doesn't effect you since you always have TT, right??

[ZacKing]

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

If it's "meaningless" then why do you care that travel powers were made faster? It doesn't effect you since you always have TT, right??

 

You mean other than I see it as a complete waste of time and effort on something that wasn't really needed to begin with?  I'd have liked for that talent and effort to have gone into other areas of the game.  I get that low hanging fruit is easy, but there's other parts of the game that need a lot of attention.  I'd like to see effort put into those things.  If that's ok with you of course?