MASSIVELY: Has Homecoming torched the plans of City of Heroes successors?

[A Cat]

8 hours ago, Albion said:

I think they never were really serious about their U.S. and Europe subsidiaries, they keep focusing on cellphone games and those that appeal to the southern asia market.

I can believe that. The small amount of profit generated by CoX annually was probably dwarfed by one good day of gacha revenue, and a new banner or outfit is cheaper development-wise to boot. 

[JnEricsonx]

2 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

The new Marvel MMO property seems to be going ahead with Jack Emmert, and given what happened with Avengers, I don't think they're overly worried about quality.

 

I just miss Marvel Heroes Online.   I'm sorry, getting to play as Spiderman voiced by Christopher Daniel Barnes.... the only way that could have been better if they'd gotten Cal Dodd to voice Wolverine!    Nothing against Steve Blum btw.

[Rishidian]

2 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

The new Marvel MMO property seems to be going ahead with Jack Emmert, and given what happened with Avengers, I don't think they're overly worried about quality.

 

From what I played of the last Marvel MMO (I lasted less than 30 minutes), this is what I would expect.

 

Not much hope of me changing - I'm more than happy here.

[SaintD]

For some reason Jack Emmert gets cred for City of Heroes, when really the only thing he did right was say, "Let's make a superhero MMO."

He then proceeded to try and nail us down to 'three minions and a lieutenant is a one hero fight, and a Boss can probably beat you'. You know the Rest power? It had a ten minute cooldown. Because Jack Emmert, and Jack Emmert doesn't know what fun is. Or what superheroes are either, apparently.

CoX pretty much only became a good game because he got flushed. He then went off and once again had total control over Champions Online, which proceeded to inhale buttholes, and make Cryptic into a kind of messed up puppy mill of an MMO company dedicated to pooping out as many properties as possible with as much of the same assets in the same engine as it could. Hearing 'Jack Emmert' attached to a project immediately makes me think 'so it's going to be terrible then'.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, Jack Emmert is the Chris Roberts of superhero MMO's. See, Chris Roberts has spent his whole life trying to make this giant space sim he's dreamed about forever, with the small problem of being possibly one of the worst project leaders the game industry has ever known - he's an utterly boneheaded moron who got thrown out of his projects by any publisher he managed to sell a space sim idea to, because he's utterly incapable of running and delivering a project. And now, since publishers consider him to be made entirely of radioactive incompetence, he got himself funded by the only people stupid enough to not have any pattern recognition.....the general public.

That's Jack Emmert. He keeps trying to make a Marvel superhero MMO, with the small problem being that he's simply terrible at it. At least King Midas turned things to gold. Jack turns them to poop. He wanted to make a Marvel superhero MMO and ended up with City of Heroes because Marvel wouldn't go for it, and left because everyone else on the team wanted to make a game that was actually good. Then he left, founded Cryptic, wanted to make a Marvel superhero MMO, and ended up with Champions Online because Marvel wouldn't go for it, then left Cryptic because weirdly enough, no-one seemed to care about trying very hard except the Star Trek team, and it's the Marvel superhero MMO that he cares about. Now he's actually GOT A MARVEL MMO and it's going to be terrible because we know he's really bad at this.

Edited December 15, 2021 by SaintD

[Glacier Peak]

I don't get the disdain for past developer studios. It was a business arrangement. Way I see it - the consumer gets to have fun and the publisher gets paid. When it wasn't fun anymore for the consumer, they canceled their subscription. When it wasn't making enough money for publisher, they canceled the game. 

[DoctorDitko]

My understanding is that Korean MMOs are basically free to play, and sustained by microtransactions (some of which can get pretty damn macro, as I see it).

 

From that perspective, you can see how CoH looked like a non-starter to the bigwigs at NCSoft.

They made a cursory attempt to recast CoH in their mold, then folded it and concentrated on their license-to-print-money flagships.

 

As far as Jack is concerned, he deserves a daily nerfbat to the knees. There should be a lottery as to who gets the privilege of delivering same.

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by DoctorDitko
Punctuation is important, kids!

[Ironblade]

23 hours ago, SaintD said:

EDIT: Now that I think about it, Jack Emmert is the Chris Roberts of superhero MMO's. See, Chris Roberts has spent his whole life trying to make this giant space sim he's dreamed about forever, with the small problem of being possibly one of the worst project leaders the game industry has ever known - he's an utterly boneheaded moron who got thrown out of his projects by any publisher he managed to sell a space sim idea to, because he's utterly incapable of running and delivering a project. And now, since publishers consider him to be made entirely of radioactive incompetence, he got himself funded by the only people stupid enough to not have any pattern recognition.....the general public.

To be fair, Chris Roberts has been behind some great games - created when someone other than him was responsible for running the project/company.

[Without_Pause]

SoH won for Best Indie MMO and it isn't even out. Granted it is 4th in the people's voting.

https://massivelyop.com/2021/12/19/massively-ops-2021-awards-indie-mmo-of-the-year/

 

[Hyperstrike]

On 12/14/2021 at 9:38 PM, SaintD said:

For some reason Jack Emmert gets cred for City of Heroes, when really the only thing he did right was say, "Let's make a superhero MMO."

 

 

Hey, say what you will about Jack, actually DELIVERING on a project deserves kudos.
Sure, it's not what you may want, or what you want NOW.

But back in the day...

 

On 12/14/2021 at 9:38 PM, SaintD said:

He then proceeded to try and nail us down to 'three minions and a lieutenant is a one hero fight, and a Boss can probably beat you'. You know the Rest power? It had a ten minute cooldown. Because Jack Emmert, and Jack Emmert doesn't know what fun is. Or what superheroes are either, apparently.

Please, understand, that from a game balance perspective, you REALLY aren't supposed to be able to burn your way through to max level and hit all the content in a day.

Also, changes since then have made the need to rest FAR less important.

And your idea of "fun" and his are different.

And MY idea of fun probably differs from yours as well.


 

On 12/14/2021 at 9:38 PM, SaintD said:

CoX pretty much only became a good game because he got flushed. He then went off and once again had total control over Champions Online, which proceeded to inhale buttholes, and make Cryptic into a kind of messed up puppy mill of an MMO company dedicated to pooping out as many properties as possible with as much of the same assets in the same engine as it could. Hearing 'Jack Emmert' attached to a project immediately makes me think 'so it's going to be terrible then'.

CoH had a roaring population for several years before many of the changes you're talking about.
And yes, some of the changes weren't popular.  But they gave rise to several of the systems we now take for granted.  With the Invention system being first and foremost.
 

On 12/14/2021 at 9:38 PM, SaintD said:

EDIT: Now that I think about it, Jack Emmert is the Chris Roberts of superhero MMO's. See, Chris Roberts has spent his whole life trying to make this giant space sim he's dreamed about forever, with the small problem of being possibly one of the worst project leaders the game industry has ever known - he's an utterly boneheaded moron who got thrown out of his projects by any publisher he managed to sell a space sim idea to, because he's utterly incapable of running and delivering a project. And now, since publishers consider him to be made entirely of radioactive incompetence, he got himself funded by the only people stupid enough to not have any pattern recognition.....the general public.

 

That's entirely uncalled for.

I've actually met the guy.

I've also met people who've worked with him.  And you're presenting a VERY warped view of him and his actions.
 

On 12/14/2021 at 9:38 PM, SaintD said:

That's Jack Emmert. He keeps trying to make a Marvel superhero MMO, with the small problem being that he's simply terrible at it. At least King Midas turned things to gold. Jack turns them to poop. He wanted to make a Marvel superhero MMO and ended up with City of Heroes because Marvel wouldn't go for it, and left because everyone else on the team wanted to make a game that was actually good. Then he left, founded Cryptic, wanted to make a Marvel superhero MMO, and ended up with Champions Online because Marvel wouldn't go for it, then left Cryptic because weirdly enough, no-one seemed to care about trying very hard except the Star Trek team, and it's the Marvel superhero MMO that he cares about. Now he's actually GOT A MARVEL MMO and it's going to be terrible because we know he's really bad at this.

And if Jack is so terrible at it, why are people STILL playing both his superhero properties?

CO is, essentially, STILL the same exact game it was 12 years ago.

I VASTLY prefer CoH to CO.  But that's primarily because I was introduced to CO first.  And it's "my" game.

Doesn't mean I don't still hold a lifetime sub for CO and still visit it every now and again.


And crapping all over the guy who delivered them is just childish.
 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Hyperstrike

[SaintD]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

And if Jack is so terrible at it, why are people STILL playing both his superhero properties?

CO is, essentially, STILL the same exact game it was 12 years ago.

 

Josh Strife Hayes has an entire series of trying to find and play the worst MMO possible, and people are still playing every single one. People are still posting about masks and Ivermectin as they literally choke to death on reality.

 

"Why are people doing it then, huh?" is the dumbest, most utterly simpleton nonsense take anyone can possibly make.

 

....but that makes sense from someone trying to defend a guy who's bad at his job because you met him and he's nice. I have evaluated only a single bad teacher who wasn't nice. They were all still bad teachers.

 

And the cherry on top being to point out CO is still basically the same after twelve years as if that's great, and not because it instantly flopped into maintenance mode and fossilized.

 

I'm not wasting my time typing on a phone to all your points, because there would be no point. Reality is the point. Emmert hasn't delivered a major project that didn't flop (including an entire major development studio with multiple high profile IPs) since CoX, and realistically that wasn't even overly successful for the hype of being the first ever superhero MMO when people would eat their family for one.

 

Maybe you can send some thoughts and prayers to his project history. Buy it some Hydroxychloroquine. Meanwhile, everyone is gonna watch another very mediocre at best game happen and be entirely unsurprised.

Edited December 22, 2021 by SaintD

[Without_Pause]

3 hours ago, SaintD said:

CoX, and realistically that wasn't even overly successful for the hype of being the first ever superhero MMO when people would eat their family for one.

The only reason I'm here is in the year that WoW won Game of the Year CoH won MMO of the Year in a PC gaming magazine. CoH had been running for years and was still profitable even when it was shutdown. CoH could have cakewalked to be being around for a decade. With it switching to F2P, it could have gone on even up to today. Add in it being a new IP and nothing Marvel, DC, or even Image related, I would think that qualifies as being overly successful.

[AShyStarspawn]

This thread just comes across to me as a bunch of people trying to piss on successors despite their being no real reason too considering you can like both Homecoming CoH and the successors or just Homecoming if you so please. I genuinely do not get why we have to be so nasty towards the successors considering Homecoming is still a thing and I don't see the successors somehow taking it away anytime soon.

 

I personally think the whole question is pointless as the successors are still running and are still having people working on them. I am not sure about Ship of Heroes or Valiance but I do know City of Titans team is made of volunteer CoH players and they are actively still working on the game.

[Nerva]

2 hours ago, Feyspeaker said:

This thread just comes across to me as a bunch of people trying to piss on successors despite their being no real reason too considering you can like both Homecoming CoH and the successors or just Homecoming if you so please. I genuinely do not get why we have to be so nasty towards the successors considering Homecoming is still a thing and I don't see the successors somehow taking it away anytime soon.

 

I'm not going to speak for anyone but the facts as they stand and myself here.

 

Lemme be real with you; most of the successor projects went in with a flawed goal from day one - to replace CoH. CoH was a special kind of magic of a game, and that sort of lightning doesn't strike twice easily. Champions Online tried to replace CoH; it became an overmonetized second fiddle, despite a good license, fantastic ideas, and Cryptic. DCUO tried to replace CoH; same thing happened to it, despite one of the best-recognized licenses possible and a solid budget. Now, the successor projects did have one advantage, in that CoH wasn't publicly available when they started. They didn't feel they were competing against the original. If they were the only means of getting a proper CoH-like game, they might've had a chance with the design philosophy they had going in.

 

That's not the case anymore. Homecoming (and other CoH servers) are here now. They're free, and they're publicly available. The stated goal of the successor projects - to provide something like CoH now that CoH wasn't around - is moot, because CoH is back. Under new management and no longer commercial, but it's back. The successor projects had two options; either strive to make a game that was distinct from and better than CoH, or close up shop and join (or start!) a CoH server.  So far, as far as I'm concerned, those that went with that first option have failed. Others are welcome to prove me wrong, if they can, but I'm not going to hold my breath for a second miracle when I've got one I appreciate right here.

 

The successor projects will live or die by their own merits vs. CoH; just like Champions and DCUO did.  That's not pissing on them, that's just stating facts.

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Nerva
Couple corrections

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Feyspeaker said:

This thread just comes across to me as a bunch of people trying to piss on successors

 

What?  People respond poorly to vaporware and undelivered projects funded by donations?

No.  Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.  I'm shocked.  Shocked, I say!

[Clave Dark 5]

On 12/24/2021 at 2:05 AM, Feyspeaker said:

This thread just comes across to me as a bunch of people trying to piss on successors despite their being no real reason too considering you can like both Homecoming CoH and the successors or just Homecoming if you so please.

There has been some of that, I'll agree.   Me though, I'm here "pissing on" one of them because I once worked for them and saw how they did things - or may still be doing things, I dunno.  Maybe I'm just a lone disgruntled sour-graper, but I feel you might think the same had you been there yourself.   We'll see what happens, and of course you can enjoy those games when they come out too, we certainly can't stop you..

[battlewraith]

On 12/24/2021 at 3:05 AM, Feyspeaker said:

This thread just comes across to me as a bunch of people trying to piss on successors despite their being no real reason too considering you can like both Homecoming CoH and the successors or just Homecoming if you so please. I genuinely do not get why we have to be so nasty towards the successors considering Homecoming is still a thing and I don't see the successors somehow taking it away anytime soon.

 

I personally think the whole question is pointless as the successors are still running and are still having people working on them. I am not sure about Ship of Heroes or Valiance but I do know City of Titans team is made of volunteer CoH players and they are actively still working on the game.

 

I agree. I understand the anger of people that donated to a successor project that has still not delivered. However, the people pissing on them are leaving out some key facts.

 

Homecoming is here because of being stolen goods. The initial illicit server ran for years with people working on the code and running it. Then when word got out, coh fans lost their shit and harrassed the guy running that server into turning the code over. My understanding is that he then helped the new teams get going, who are now continuing to improve and update an existing game, not something they own or made from scratch.