Focused Feedback: Changes to Sleep and Placate

[Take One]

You know what might really help? 

If 'sleeping' foes fell to the ground and stayed there for as long as they were asleep.

This would let the whole team know that they are sleeping, more visibly than the 'standing up with bowed head' animation.

It would also mean that even if they wake up, they have to spend a second or two on standing back up, which makes 'sleep' useful even if the mob is instantly awakened by a fireball from a trigger happy blaster.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Take One said:

You know what might really help? 

If 'sleeping' foes fell to the ground and stayed there for as long as they were asleep.

This would let the whole team know that they are sleeping, more visibly than the 'standing up with bowed head' animation.

It would also mean that even if they wake up, they have to spend a second or two on standing back up, which makes 'sleep' useful even if the mob is instantly awakened by a fireball from a trigger happy blaster.

This is great idea!

[Blackfeather]

3 hours ago, Take One said:

You know what might really help? 

If 'sleeping' foes fell to the ground and stayed there for as long as they were asleep.

This would let the whole team know that they are sleeping, more visibly than the 'standing up with bowed head' animation.

It would also mean that even if they wake up, they have to spend a second or two on standing back up, which makes 'sleep' useful even if the mob is instantly awakened by a fireball from a trigger happy blaster.

 

I'd probably only let that work for Sleeps that actually put enemies to sleep flavour wise myself (Mass Hypnosis, Mesmerize). For something like Salt Crystals that traps enemies in a structure, I could see fragile pets forming around each enemy that they'd need to break, similar to Scrapper's Stone Armour T9, Geode, except self targeted.

[Take One]

32 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

For something like Salt Crystals

 

Those are already very clearly marked as affected by something, by the crystals, so they don't have to drop to the ground while asleep. But maybe they should when released from the crystals, so the benefit of forcing them to stand up is consistent among all sleep powers. That was the effect I was looking for the most really, adding a very brief extra detriment to those who have been affected by Sleep.

[Blackfeather]

20 minutes ago, Take One said:

Those are already very clearly marked as affected by something, by the crystals, so they don't have to drop to the ground while asleep. But maybe they should when released from the crystals, so the benefit of forcing them to stand up is consistent among all sleep powers. That was the effect I was looking for the most really, adding a very brief extra detriment to those who have been affected by Sleep.

 

Mmhm - I don't think having enemies get up from that kind of Sleep would fit. Also consider ticking Sleep powers like Static Field; they don't need additional forms of lockdown. So I think it's better to go through them on a case by case basis. For Sleep powers that trap enemies in fragile structures, I'd say having enemies 'break out' of said structures after awakening would be the way to go.

[oedipus_tex]

Interesting changes to Sleep. I think this is a good first step. I can't say that having Sleep autohit would make me rethink taking a Sleep power I previously skipped, but it's at least nice that its reliable. Thank you for at least being willing to visit the issue.

 

RE: AoE Control powers specifically, I still think a reduction in their recharge and animation time is warranted unless there are other planned changes. Even without needing Accuracy you still need a lot of Recharge (in the power and globally) to justify the power. Salt Crystals and Flash Freeze aren't powers of the same caliber as Earthquake and Stalagmites and should probably animate and recharge two to three times as fast. 30 base Recharge would at least tempt me, even if the Sleep duration were drastically reduced (Sleep duration hardly matters).

 

 

Thanks again.

Edited November 13, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[aethereal]

I don't like the change in build 2 to make sleep powers auto-hit except against raid targets.  It feels like a weird deal where now probably your sleeps really suck against AVs because you didn't bother to slot them for accuracy, and so now they can't hit the few people they actually roll to hit against?

 

I guess it's maybe not a huge deal because who actually tries to use a sleep against an AV, but if there is going to be a real niche of sleep as a toggle dropper, AVs may have the kind of sustained powers that you really would want to drop?

 

It just feels like it's a nasty bind, where if you want your power to be effective in the hardest fights, you have to slot it in ways that are literally useless in 99% of fights. 

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

I don't like the change in build 2 to make sleep powers auto-hit except against raid targets.  It feels like a weird deal where now probably your sleeps really suck against AVs because you didn't bother to slot them for accuracy, and so now they can't hit the few people they actually roll to hit against?

 

I guess it's maybe not a huge deal because who actually tries to use a sleep against an AV, but if there is going to be a real niche of sleep as a toggle dropper, AVs may have the kind of sustained powers that you really would want to drop?

 

It just feels like it's a nasty bind, where if you want your power to be effective in the hardest fights, you have to slot it in ways that are literally useless in 99% of fights. 

A bit of bummer. I was enjoying sleeping the AV in the cauldron fight with mesmerize in one shot while I cleared the turrets.

 

But I can see how that could be exploited.

 

Still I love the sleep change, nothing like resetting a fight that got out of control with one Mass Hypnosis.

[Mezmera]

7 hours ago, aethereal said:

I don't like the change in build 2 to make sleep powers auto-hit except against raid targets.  It feels like a weird deal where now probably your sleeps really suck against AVs because you didn't bother to slot them for accuracy, and so now they can't hit the few people they actually roll to hit against?

 

I guess it's maybe not a huge deal because who actually tries to use a sleep against an AV, but if there is going to be a real niche of sleep as a toggle dropper, AVs may have the kind of sustained powers that you really would want to drop?

 

It just feels like it's a nasty bind, where if you want your power to be effective in the hardest fights, you have to slot it in ways that are literally useless in 99% of fights. 

 

I use sleeps against AV's all the time, particularly Mesmerize. 

 

Here's a tip for you, in the Zoe and Rodney fight if you sleep Rodney he won't be taunting the team, that way you can focus on Zoe first.  

 

So long as the change doesn't make them all immune to sleep that's fine, a few already are which is cool.  Your sleep powers should likely have a decent set with some accuracy in it anyways so it seems a minor inconvenience.  

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Your sleep powers should likely have a decent set with some accuracy in it anyways so it seems a minor inconvenience.  

I mean, I think that one benefit of the auto-hit change is that it means that you don't actually have to devote slots to a sleep power?

 

Like, sleeps are usually pretty long duration, and most characters aren't going to spam them enough that they really want that much end redx or recharge redx.  With no need for accuracy, you can just one-slot them and be fine...  except that then they can't hit AVs.

 

Now, I dunno, maybe that wasn't the design anyway.  It seems almost like what @Captain Powerhouse wants to do is not so much make them auto-hit as make them immune to to-hit debuffs and defense buffs, but of course that's not really something you can do -- so auto-hit approximates it.

[KaizenSoze]

22 minutes ago, aethereal said:

I mean, I think that one benefit of the auto-hit change is that it means that you don't actually have to devote slots to a sleep power?

 

Like, sleeps are usually pretty long duration, and most characters aren't going to spam them enough that they really want that much end redx or recharge redx.  With no need for accuracy, you can just one-slot them and be fine...  except that then they can't hit AVs.

Funny enough I wanted to slot it more for recharge. Of course, doms want it for the purple set recharge also.

 

Having it up every twelve second due to slotting and global recharge is a nice get out of trouble card.

[ForeverLaxx]

11 hours ago, aethereal said:

It feels like a weird deal where now probably your sleeps really suck against AVs because you didn't bother to slot them for accuracy, and so now they can't hit the few people they actually roll to hit against?

Powers that were auto-hit in PvE but still accepted Accuracy Enhancements was for using those powers against players. The split there made sense and didn't impact anyone who only PvE'd or only PvP'd. You never had to use accuracy in those powers until you stepped into a PvP zone/arena. I agree that splitting these powers' accuracy checks based on enemy rank is a step too far. Powers that work differently, with different rules, based on what you target in PvE, is not a precedent I really want to see set. This isn't an issue of higher ranks having higher resistance/protection, or a villain group with certain powers that make things harder for all characters of a certain type, or even an issue of AVs with their Purple Triangles -- this is just straight up different rules for AVs for the sake of having different rules for AVs (and I guess GMs).

 

Having reduced effectiveness on powers vs "raid targets" is one thing. It's expected behavior because that's how everything else works in the game. The tougher a target is, the less effective mez, debuff, and damage tends to be against them. Making "raid targets" require accuracy checks for a specific type of mez simply because they're "raid targets" actively punishes players who can go their entire career with an unslotted sleep (since it's auto-hit and sleeps tend to last long by default) when the rules suddenly change and now they need to slot Accuracy.

 

I don't care if most of the Set IOs and Set Bonus Suites include a bunch of residual Accuracy in them. I'm sure the dev team doesn't think this will be an issue because of how IOs are designed, but I don't want more decisions about this game's systems to assume everyone builds the same way or PLs up to 50 and skips low/mid-tier content. AVs exist at lower levels where slotting is at a premium, and many players (myself included) don't bother with Set IOs while leveling. You're just punishing these people for no reason whatsoever.

[Mezmera]

3 hours ago, aethereal said:

I mean, I think that one benefit of the auto-hit change is that it means that you don't actually have to devote slots to a sleep power?

 

Like, sleeps are usually pretty long duration, and most characters aren't going to spam them enough that they really want that much end redx or recharge redx.  With no need for accuracy, you can just one-slot them and be fine...  except that then they can't hit AVs.

 

Now, I dunno, maybe that wasn't the design anyway.  It seems almost like what @Captain Powerhouse wants to do is not so much make them auto-hit as make them immune to to-hit debuffs and defense buffs, but of course that's not really something you can do -- so auto-hit approximates it.

 

You didn't really need to devote anything before for them to be useful out of the box.  If I slot Mesmerize it'll be 5 of the decimation set, if I don't usually on that build I will just have it slotted with a 50+5 Apoc dmg IO and will have tactics and Soul Drain powering my accuracy along with accuracy bonuses.  The sleep component will last for as long as I want it to until teammates break it.  

 

With Mass Hypnosis if I take it I'll be planning on using it so usually it gets the purple set.  If I took it with my last pick I'll usually be using TD, MC and Terrify and the Mass Hypnosis is a bonus aoe control, which I'll slot a 50+5 sleep/acc/rech purple.  I was hardly missing with that low slotting to begin with.  

 

Yes the consensus it feels from the dev team is to give sleeps a bit more viability by having this in your bag of tricks to be able to help the team with those harsh debuff/buffs.  Sleeps atm aren't a terribly reliable control on teams because of zerging play styles but giving them this kind of benefit will be a nice feature if they have more engagements that call for these kinds of tricks.  

Edited November 17, 2021 by Mezmera

[tidge]

16 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Powers that were auto-hit in PvE but still accepted Accuracy Enhancements was for using those powers against players. The split there made sense and didn't impact anyone who only PvE'd or only PvP'd. You never had to use accuracy in those powers until you stepped into a PvP zone/arena. I agree that splitting these powers' accuracy checks based on enemy rank is a step too far. Powers that work differently, with different rules, based on what you target in PvE, is not a precedent I really want to see set. This isn't an issue of higher ranks having higher resistance/protection, or a villain group with certain powers that make things harder for all characters of a certain type, or even an issue of AVs with their Purple Triangles -- this is just straight up different rules for AVs for the sake of having different rules for AVs (and I guess GMs).

 

The bolded part is basically where my feels land. This choice feels to me like it is putting effort in a peculiar part of the design space. For example:

• Enemy types (feel like they) can already be designed with specific resistances (to the point of "why bother") both in terms of mezz and debuffs... ehem, Slows on lightning-fast enemies that love to run... such as War Wolves. (I accept that I may be mixing game effects, but do we really need more opportunities for confusion by design?)
• (Future?) powers could be designed that actually benefit from slotting both Accuracy and Sleep, even if we think it doesn't make sense now.

I suppose I can get behind changes if we can get powers like Wormhole to work on +4 bosses. (Is this still an issue? I haven't played my Grav in a LONG time.)

[BZRKR]

27 minutes ago, tidge said:

I suppose I can get behind changes if we can get powers like Wormhole to work on +4 bosses. (Is this still an issue? I haven't played my Grav in a LONG time.)

Yeah, you currently need to use the Ultimate Inspirations to gain an effective level to grab +4 Bosses/Elite Bosses. 

[Bartacus]

It really feels like the most recent build makes this a 2 steps forward, 1 step back kind of situation for sleep. Why can't we let powers like Mesmerize really have their niche for things like AVs? It's still useful of course, but it sure was a nice bonus to not have to slot Accuracy in it for any targets in PvE. 

[nihilii]

I had a kneejerk reaction to the sleep change at first. I guess the design goal here might be for sleeps to get a buff against normal mobs, but for players to actually still slot their Sleeps and still be exposed to a small chance of failure in situations where they permasleep AV groups to focus on them 1 by 1. It seems like a convoluted solution, but fair enough.

[Replacement]

Auto-success effects having to roll vs Raid targets isn't new.

 

Every taunt rolls a ToHit roll vs Raid targets except the actual Taunt power.

 

Specifically, what I mean is Gauntlet, Fury, and every Taunt aura all have this same "roll vs Raid tag" mechanism.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/entity-tags.html?tag=raid&q=affects

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Replacement

[Bartacus]

Meh... sleep feels so useless except against AV's though. Reverting the to-hit check on raid targets would be a nice minor buff to Mind Control since Mind is currently outclassed. 

[Luminara]

Something's fucky with damage-dealing powers which Sleep.  Using Chilling Ray and Frozen Aura on my Ice/Willpower sentinel, I'm seeing the Sleep activate, but no damage dealt and no Miss message.  I don't know if I'm missing and the Sleep is auto-hitting, or if I'm hitting but the damage is bugged.  I don't like not knowing what's happening when I'm up to my ears in things trying to feast on my liver.

[Blackfeather]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

Something's fucky with damage-dealing powers which Sleep.  Using Chilling Ray and Frozen Aura on my Ice/Willpower sentinel, I'm seeing the Sleep activate, but no damage dealt and no Miss message.  I don't know if I'm missing and the Sleep is auto-hitting, or if I'm hitting but the damage is bugged.  I don't like not knowing what's happening when I'm up to my ears in things trying to feast on my liver.

 

Yup, only the sleep component of those powers is autohit, I think. So the damage part still rolls for accuracy.

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

 

Yup, only the sleep component of those powers is autohit, I think. So the damage part still rolls for accuracy.

 

I understand how the separate components function.  There's a problem with how the damage component is functioning, though.

 

 

No hit rolls being displayed for the powers with both Sleep and damage.  Other attacks, such as Frost Breath and Bitter Ice Blast, display hit rolls.

 

 

The powers with Sleep are still making internal hit checks for the damage component, but they're not passing those checks along.  So no Miss messages are generated.  Technically, even with the new 100% Sleep chance, attacks which miss should NOT Sleep the targets.

 

That's fucky.  This is a bug.  Two bugs caused by one bug.  Sleeps hitting when the attacks miss, and no hit rolls or Miss messages generated.