What makes a power a "proc monster"?

[the1egend1ives]

I'm curious what makes certain powers more deadly with procs than other powers? How come I don't just stack procs in every single one of my powers? Isn't that just extra damage that I'm gonna be doing?  And are certain procs better or worse than others?

[Snarky]

I do not build proc builds.  But the things to look at would be recharge for one.  How often a power is up will affect how often it procs.  Again, I do not build to proc so I do not know the peculiarities and subtleties of the topic.  
 

another obvious thing to look at is what powersets can you slot into the power.  Certain powers will take more sets with procs than others

 

Finally I am sure there is the matter of how many mobs you can hit with the power.  The more you hit the more you proc

 

so, optimizing procs per minute, choosing a build that can slot many procs, and choosing a build that can hit a lot of mobs with the procs.   
 

Basically volume.  Volume makes the proc into a proc monster

[Without_Pause]

It partly depends on the rate of firing of the proc. They tend to be slotted more in powers with lower/no damage so the proc damage adds a decent amount of damage. You also need to still factor in things like acc or what the power is built for. Some powers, for Brutes, can get away with less slotting of damage since Fury drives so much of theirs so they can slot heavier in procs. As mentioned, you lose out in set bonuses so there is a bit of give and take. Controllers and Defenders are two AT which are really good and slotting lots of procs. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Without_Pause

[A Cat]

Long animation + recharge time and also slottable proc types. So for example, a single target ranged hold can use ranged procs (of which there's very few, but importantly, has a purple, which does more damage/more firings. It can also use hold procs though, which ALSO has a purple damage proc. Single target range holds from APP's also tend to have pretty long native recharge. Damage procs have a fire rate of 3.5 per minute. So for a single target attack, a good recharge to have is ~15 seconds even though 60 seconds/3.5 is ~17 seconds, since procs can only have a max chance of 90% firing. Now you do not want to change this recharge with enhancements OR your alpha slot, since these both decrease your proc chance. However, global recharge doesn't count, so pump those numbers up. AoE's are more complicated. There is an area factor that reduces proc chance as well. Bigger the area the less the chance. Notably on stuff with long enough recharge like Ground Zero from Rad Armor or Blast Nukes, the recharge is long enough that you'll always have 90% proc chance anyway. These powers thus are pretty good for procs if you can sacrifice the set bonuses. 

 

Damage procs are all the same except for damage type and whether or not it is a purple proc or not. Purple procs fire 4 per minute and also do more damage. 

[arcane]

You should be comparing what procs do vs regular damage enhancement to make this determination. I calculate the average damage per proc (proc rate x 71.75) and then calculate what percentage damage enhancement that equates to. 
 

You also need to consider proc rate vs recharge. For instance, Scrapper/Stalker snipes might do more damage if well frankenslotted and proc bombed, but you have little to no chance of working them into a coherent attack chain if the recharge is too long.

 

 

[the1egend1ives]

19 minutes ago, A Cat said:

Long animation + recharge time and also slottable proc types. So for example, a single target ranged hold can use ranged procs (of which there's very few, but importantly, has a purple, which does more damage/more firings. It can also use hold procs though, which ALSO has a purple damage proc. Single target range holds from APP's also tend to have pretty long native recharge. Damage procs have a fire rate of 3.5 per minute. So for a single target attack, a good recharge to have is ~15 seconds even though 60 seconds/3.5 is ~17 seconds, since procs can only have a max chance of 90% firing. Now you do not want to change this recharge with enhancements OR your alpha slot, since these both decrease your proc chance. However, global recharge doesn't count, so pump those numbers up. AoE's are more complicated. There is an area factor that reduces proc chance as well. Bigger the area the less the chance. Notably on stuff with long enough recharge like Ground Zero from Rad Armor or Blast Nukes, the recharge is long enough that you'll always have 90% proc chance anyway. These powers thus are pretty good for procs if you can sacrifice the set bonuses. 

 

Damage procs are all the same except for damage type and whether or not it is a purple proc or not. Purple procs fire 4 per minute and also do more damage. 

 

 

So powers that have less than a 15 second recharge reduce the chance of procs firing? Suppose a power has a quick enough recharge that it comes up every 5 seconds. So I could fire that power 10 times a minute. Of those 10 activations, my proc will only fire 3 times?

[TheZag]

Its the recharge time of a power before global recharge is applied that can reduce the proc rate.  Grab hasten and 5 luck of the gambler global recharge and as many global recharge set bonuses as you can and your powers will be recharged much more quickly without lowering the proc rate.  However the alpha slot recharge counts as individual enhancements on each power so it can reduce your proc chance.

[SeraphimKensai]

Here's a good resource to refer to for Procs and PPM. Make sure to make your own copy....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vd4ZZd1jfhOzdZZkGxC9O0NN5G0T1EdWPu_XRrV6s0U/edit#gid=905771942

[A Cat]

2 hours ago, the1egend1ives said:

 

 

So powers that have less than a 15 second recharge reduce the chance of procs firing? Suppose a power has a quick enough recharge that it comes up every 5 seconds. So I could fire that power 10 times a minute. Of those 10 activations, my proc will only fire 3 times?

At ~15 seconds, you will be at the max chance of firing (90)% for normal procs. Your example sounds about right. However, you can have say, a power with 15 second recharge base, and you don't enhance it at all, but you have 200% global recharge that makes it have 7 second recharge in actuality, you will still have 90% proc chance per activation. In the words of the flex seal guy, that's a lot of damage. You can basically think of global recharge with procs as making the procs fire MORE than the 3.5 or 4 times per minute rate. 

 

Mids does take in account average damage added by procs and also tells you the proc chance if you mouse over the damage breakdown in the power window on the left. 

[the1egend1ives]

45 minutes ago, A Cat said:

At ~15 seconds, you will be at the max chance of firing (90)% for normal procs. Your example sounds about right. However, you can have say, a power with 15 second recharge base, and you don't enhance it at all, but you have 200% global recharge that makes it have 7 second recharge in actuality, you will still have 90% proc chance per activation. In the words of the flex seal guy, that's a lot of damage. You can basically think of global recharge with procs as making the procs fire MORE than the 3.5 or 4 times per minute rate. 

 

Mids does take in account average damage added by procs and also tells you the proc chance if you mouse over the damage breakdown in the power window on the left. 

Now I finally understand why my Ice Arrow hits every single proc on every activation versus only occasionally on Entangling Arrow. So let me get this straight.... suppose I have a power who's native recharge rate is 20 seconds with no enhancements, but with my global recharge buffs It's only 8 seconds. Am I still getting the 90% proc rate on activation?  

 

Now could you explain how pets are impacted by procs?

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by the1egend1ives

[A Cat]

36 minutes ago, the1egend1ives said:

Now I finally understand why my Ice Arrow hits every single proc on every activation versus only occasionally on Entangling Arrow. So let me get this straight.... suppose I have a power who's native recharge rate is 20 seconds with no enhancements, but with my global recharge buffs It's only 8 seconds. Am I still getting the 90% proc rate on activation?  

 

Now could you explain how pets are impacted by procs?

 

 

 

Yep. As for pets, I have no idea. I never play pet classes, lol. I only play brainless DPS. I see enemy and my monkey brain goes OOH OOH AAH AAH. 

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, the1egend1ives said:

Now I finally understand why my Ice Arrow hits every single proc on every activation versus only occasionally on Entangling Arrow. So let me get this straight.... suppose I have a power who's native recharge rate is 20 seconds with no enhancements, but with my global recharge buffs It's only 8 seconds. Am I still getting the 90% proc rate on activation?  

 

Now could you explain how pets are impacted by procs?

 

 

 

 

Procs in pets work the same way, although pets are immune to recharge so their proc rate is based on whatever their attack's base recharge rate is.   Also, the proc has to be part of the actual attack.  So, if your pet has one hold attack, but 5 other attacks that don't have hold as part of the attack, and you slot a proc from a hold set, the proc will only trigger when they use their hold, not any of their other powers.

 

For instance, it is why a cloud senses damage proc is popular in dark servant or necro's Lich, rather than trying to load them up with procs from a hold set.  They do a lot of things with tohit debuffing, but they only have one hold.

[Obus Form]

@the1egend1ives you're looking for these 2  threads of mechanics and implementation example

 

 

 

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/7116-proc-monsters-the-new-offender/

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Obus Form

[Carnifax]

11 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

So, if your pet has one hold attack, but 5 other attacks that don't have hold as part of the attack, and you slot a proc from a hold set, the proc will only trigger when they use their hold, not any of their other powers.

This basically. Good examples of "proccy pets" are Clouded Senses in Dark Servant, because all his attacks have some -ToHit.

Achilles & Shield Breaker in Fly Trap because most of their attacks do -Def. Ditto with Grave Knights for a Necro MM, all their Sword attacks have some -Def. 

Explosive Strike isn't bad in Phantasm, 2 of his attacks do knockback (add a Overwhelming kb2kd to make him less annoying)

Overwhelming Chance to Knockdown in any pet power which summons a lot of pets, like MM Tier 1s and Imps. This is just because there's a lot to go around. 

[tidge]

On 11/24/2021 at 4:44 PM, the1egend1ives said:

 How come I don't just stack procs in every single one of my powers? Isn't that just extra damage that I'm gonna be doing?  And are certain procs better or worse than others?

 

Hopefully the point everyone else made about recharge times in powers made sense. As for "all the extra damage",  I tend to avoid slotting %damage pieces in AT that are already doing significant damage; the damage value from %procs is the same without respect to AT. Low scale AT are better served by %damage procs. Even so, I don't usually put %damage in Mastermind attacks, because that AT pays an extraordinary Endurance penalty to make attacks.

 

I didn't see anyone mention this aspect of non-damage %procs: a %proc that applies an effect can be slotted in multiple attacks, but if triggered the effect is only extended in duration; magnitude is not increased.

 

I believe this is another subtlety: If there is a %proc in an "autohit" power, the %proc still is treated as requiring a ToHit check.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I have a number of guidelines when it comes to procs.

 

First of all, it helps to understand roughly how often you can expect the effect to trigger.  There are calculators (I use one I got from @macskulls sig, @Bopper has a lot of useful stuff, those are the ones I remember offhand).  It’s not very important knowing exactly what your percentage is, but I like to have a rough idea.  Your odds cap at 90%, I believe.  If you have 4 damage procs in a power, and each one has a 50% chance to activate, there is a 1 / 16 chance all four trigger, and a 15 / 16 chance at least one activates.

 

Next, I think of a proc bomb as as power I can put multiple procs in that have a capped chance to activate.  My favorite is DNA Siphon from Bio Armor.  I think its base recharge is 90 seconds.  I don’t have a calculator with me, but even with tons of built in recharge (and lots of global recharge), I can get a bomb with up to 6 procs that each have a maxxed out activation chance that is available every 30-40 seconds.  
 

Finally, there are some procs that I find so useful that I work them in almost anywhere I can, particularly in an aoe.  Theft of Essence + end comes to mind.  Any of the -res procs.  I generally don’t, for example, put a damage proc in a single target attack unless it has a good chance to activate *or* unless it is a power that normally doesn’t do much/any damage.  I’d much rather boost the inherent damage or recharge.

[A Cat]

17 hours ago, tidge said:

I tend to avoid slotting %damage pieces in AT that are already doing significant damage; the damage value from %procs is the same without respect to AT.

I still consider it on high damage AT's as long as I don't have to sacrifice any or much actual damage enhancement. You'll hit ED on damage easy pretty much, so the only thing you save by not making the 6th slot a damage proc is something that matters less if you are all IO'd out (little extra accuracy, end reduction, or recharge). This is especially true with purples, which WAY overenhances damage generally. You are better served by skipping the plain damage IO in those sets, eliminating the 6th slot, or putting in some sort of proc, whether damage or otherwise, and just boosting to +5 the Dam/End or something to get to ED (even without boosting, you are still enhancing it to like, 89% or something). TL;DR, it's just a way to break past the ED damage limit. Or have some other utility like -res or FF+recharge etc. Obviously this pays off way less on high recharge attacks, so usually I 5 slot those (or just use the ATO there, since the set bonuses are good, but they don't necessarily have a proc). 

[the1egend1ives]

On 11/25/2021 at 9:04 AM, Carnifax said:

This basically. Good examples of "proccy pets" are Clouded Senses in Dark Servant, because all his attacks have some -ToHit.

Achilles & Shield Breaker in Fly Trap because most of their attacks do -Def. Ditto with Grave Knights for a Necro MM, all their Sword attacks have some -Def. 

Explosive Strike isn't bad in Phantasm, 2 of his attacks do knockback (add a Overwhelming kb2kd to make him less annoying)

Overwhelming Chance to Knockdown in any pet power which summons a lot of pets, like MM Tier 1s and Imps. This is just because there's a lot to go around. 

What about pseudopets? Powers like Volcanic Gasses or Tornado? How do procs work on this?

[DreadShinobi]

Things not discussed:

 

+dmg buffs do not affect proc damage.

base damage/archetype damage modifier does not affect proc damage

-res does boost proc damage

----This is indicative of which archetypes you will see maximize proc value. Less so blasters that are built around +dmg from defiance and high base damage and more so archetypes with lower base damage and support powersets to augment the attacks that are proc loaded.

 

slotting a damage proc instead of a damage enhancement when the average damage comes out to be similar tends to favor the proc because it gives your damage cap more room.

sets that offer high levels of +tohit can find more room for procs by not needing to slot for accuracy.

sets that offer high levels of +dmg buffs like soul drain and fulcrum shift allow more room for procs while also capping out base damage.

sets with high levels of survivability, like time manipulation find more room for procs because they need to devote less slots to +def softcaps.

sets with endurance management tools like chrono shift, transference, overgrowth, and conserve power allow more room for procs by not needing to slot attacks for endredux.

Vigor Alpha (+endredux/+acc) is an incredible backbone for a proc build.