What is good dps in CoH?

[SeraphimKensai]

As a retired pvper that likes to Speedrun, and play literally every powerset in the game to it's maximum potential I can say that @Croax was spot on with a lot of us using Fire/Fire blasters (although I have been theory crafting a fire/sonic blaster for the extra -14% resistance Debuff in disruption aura, I haven't tested it just yet though), otherwise I really enjoy my fire/cold Corruptor as well for speed runs.

 

DPS though is a bit tricky in this game that there's so many avenues to take into account from melee, ranged, single target, AoE, recharge, procs, your own damage mitigation, enemy resistances/defenses to various damage types, debuffs, player buffs, base empowerment, temp powers, inspiration stacking, and player skill.

 

Given all that it's difficult to nail the coffin shut, an example of that philosophy is when I boot up three masterminds I have on unique accounts to fire farm a meteor map. They were designed to be used in tandem with each other, and can't do it alone, but all three together even though it's just me playing all three clears a meteor map super fast because they can agro so many more mobs at once because of each of their pets. Given that mentality it's not impossible to clear a meteor map in under 2 minutes, it damn difficult as you have to coordinate everything perfectly but it's extremely efficient when you get good at it.

Edited January 14, 2022 by SeraphimKensai

[Carnifax]

4 hours ago, Croax said:

I run the combat parser from carnifax a little while ago and came to the conclusion that Inferno makes up for so much of your damage in every "normal" gameplay be it solo or TF, PuGs or SGs. Everything else was just diminishing. If you are interested in what comes a combat log closest in this game here is the link:

This is pretty much why I wrote the Combat Parser. I wasn't really interested in raw DPS (although it will show it). I was more interested in both the damage each power was doing and proc was contributing and how the damage in pets / pseudopets broke down. 

 

Also wee update today, because Croax reminded me, it now records "bonus" damage like Crits and Shocked for you (totals always had them, this is just a new section showing you the damage for each bonus damage type). 

 

It's also important to note that in CoH AoEs will typically dominate the Parser damage graphs. However that doesn't mean that AoE is king (since it is typically hitting a lot of the"chaff" minions who were likely to be melted anyway) because often single target is directed at the really dangerous enemies in the group (Bosses and Lieuts). 

 

[Seed22]

On 1/13/2022 at 9:39 PM, Brawlin said:

"Your dps changes every level as you level up."

A vet level 999 player and a vet level 1 player will deal the same damage if they're playing the same build and have the same rotation. Vet levels have nothing to do with dps output.

"Different blaster types do different amounts of damage."

That is why I want to know what good dps is. So I can know the underpowered sets from the good power sets.

"They all affect DPS."

I know. Thats why I want to test things. Try stuff out. I wanted to know what the bar was set at.

Vet lvls lead to Incarnate threads n such, so yeah they do affect your DPS.

[Seed22]

On 1/13/2022 at 11:08 PM, Ignatz the Insane said:

Unhelpful as NPC hitpoints also increase with level.  

Sure, Incarnates can increase DPS, IOs do as well.  Stacking Recharge arguably is the most important factor for increased DPS.

Min-maxing is fun for me.  I'm not alone.

This is entirely subjective, at best.  Personally, I think it's a garbage statement.  Speak for yourself.

Bingo. Look, you can do DAMAGE with any set, but it's hard to sell, say, a Psi/Ment blaster vs a Ice/Fire on damage without straight up lying. From a min-max perspective, that is. And, I had one at 50 and loved it preshutdown( maaaay make it again. Trying to discern whether it's worth it for endgame times or not.) Also, I may be meh at mids, but it takes ~40 seconds to go to the forums and find a similar ish build to work off of. You'll be in the game in ~5 minutes after that. Probably.

 

If you're looking from an objective damage standpoint, don't let people who feel offended that their set isn't in consideration stop you. Here's the tops:

1.) Fire

2.)Ice

3.) Water

4.)??? Maybe, idk, Beam? Gets a bit murky here.

 

Usually Fire secondary is top damage. Well, not usually, it's objectively top damage.

 

Final note: Don't completely cut out other sets though. Some of the greatest fun can be had playing, say, a mid or low damage set like AR or something of the sort. But those primaries listed above are the top end of damage, if that's legit all you're after.

[Brawlin]

2 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Vet lvls lead to Incarnate threads n such, so yeah they do affect your DPS.

you can mail merits to any toon on your account so it still doesnt affect your dps. Also I have said this many times in this thread I was not after the best. I was was not after the 99.9%. I was just wondering where the bar was for good. It is somewhere around 400 dps.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Single target DPS is a helpful metric to consider when building a blaster. But, in addition, sustained and burst AOE DPS also matter, at least to some degree. 

 

Where blasters truly shine in comparison to other ATs is through their ability to bring high burst AOE DPS to teams; although other ATs have nukes, blaster nukes stand out for how well they tend to decimate spawns, often leaving just a handful of mobs out of an 8-player spawn still standing after they've been used. 

[Doomguide2005]

@BrawlinFor some numbers and other thoughts see some of the responses in a post in the 'Archtypes' forum (07/16/2021) entitled:

 

     "Has anyone done any homework on what is needed to kill Romulus or the ITF bosses in general solo?"  

 

 

[Troo]

On 1/14/2022 at 2:06 AM, Croax said:

Hey folks. i got lost here looking for the Stalker forum but the title was too clickbaity.

 

awesome

 

On 1/14/2022 at 2:06 AM, Croax said:

And since the OP has got very little help so far

 

hey now.. 

[Saikochoro]

On 1/13/2022 at 7:58 PM, UltraAlt said:

 

Level 1-50 your dps changes by level, the gear you have, and what powers you select.

After 50, your leveling is somewhat related to your access to incarnate powers, the gear you have, and what powers you select.

 

 

This isn't like other games.

Just have fun, you don't have to mini-max. If you want to mini-max, use MIDs

 

 

If you want to bypass experiencing the game yourself, use MIDs.

 

 

The OP was opposing the statement that vet levels impact dps. Vet levels themselves are entirely irrelevant to DPS. Yes, you get threads and emp merits to create incarnate powers, but you can just as easily dump a bunch of emp merits on a fresh level 50 and get them to T4 as soon as their incarnates are unlocked.

 

As to your second statement, there are plenty of players that love to min max and find that very fun and rewarding. To imply that min maxing isn’t the same as “just having fun” for the OP is short sighted.

 

The third statement is entirely subjective and also somewhat insulting in its implications to players that don’t view the game the same way you do. There are plenty of avid players of the game that love using mids to build their characters and then throw them at the game whether as they level or after power leveling to 50 and running trials and other challenges.  This is not bypassing experiencing the game. It is merely a different playstyle that is every bit as valid as using SOs while going through every contact in the game and turning off xp when necessary. Neither style of play is better than the other. They are just different. 
 

Now to the OP: you are going to have a hard time finding an agreed upon number for a dps benchmark. The pylon damage thread in the scrapper forums is probably where most of the single target testing occurs.  This forum also has the trap door test that covers damage in a more complete picture. There are also a few threads that discuss how much is required to kill certain AVs or to survive some hard AE missions (801 series). 
 

I will agree with others that have said, that in general, there really isn’t a dps bar that you have to meet for the mass majority of the game even at end game. This is especially so on teams. It really only starts to matter in extreme solo challenges and and some edge case extreme challenges modes for teams.  These will often also require you to take survivability into account as well. 

Id say, if you can do a +4/8 ITF solo even without extreme challenge restrictions than you are golden. 
 

Edit: +4/8 is actually not a good suggestion. Blasters will have survivability issues. I was mainly trying to think of a real game benchmark for dps.  And taking out the +4 AVs in the popular task forces before they kill you I think is good. But, I was too focused on the AVs to think too much about the other mobs spawn. I think this is why people do pylon testing. It’s slightly different, but you don’t have to slog through a TF to get to hard target. And it doesn’t have tons of mobs. I still think fighting a + 4 AV would be better though.  +4/1 would be better, but still might have too many other spawns to make it a good test. 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Saikochoro

[Tahliah]

On 1/13/2022 at 10:58 PM, UltraAlt said:

This isn't like other games.

Just have fun, you don't have to mini-max. If you want to mini-max, use MIDs

/this

 

Mids is a great resource, so be sure to check it out.

 

And welcome to the game!  🙂

 

[Tahliah]

10 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

Id say, if you can do a +4/8 ITF solo even without extreme challenge restrictions than you are golden. 

 

Oooh, I want to hear more about this, Saikochoro!  You solo the ITF at 4/8 on a blaster?  What are you running?   I have to have one!  I am serious, this sounds like a great challenge to me, and I want to do it (I'm pretty sure my main can run it on normal settings solo, though I haven't tried, but I know she wouldn't make it through the final battle with Rom x3 at 4/8. . . at least without it being such a ridiculous time suck of death and frustration that finally finishing it would be more annoying than fulfilling, heh).

[ForeverLaxx]

I'm going to preface this first by stating that, generally speaking, I'm a min/max player. I'm a PvPer. I tend to care a lot about fractions of a percent if those fractions mean I cross a threshold or not. Before anyone goes hunting, I gave up PvPing in this game back on Live because I'm a solo PvPer and Fight Clubs started getting boring.

 

With that out of the way, worrying about raw DPS will only matter in this game if you're soloing content meant for a team or you're trying to compare your numbers to someone else doing the same thing. That is, the only time it matters is if you're trying to burn down Pylons (not generally a good use of your time for anything other than seeing what your numbers are), or outpacing an AV's regeneration (something that matters far, far less when you have a team).

 

CoH isn't like other MMOs. There really aren't any functional "dps checks" in the game unless you go out of your way to create those scenarios. Sets like Fire, touted as "king of damage" will falter against fire-resistant foes and sets considered middleground like Energy can outpace its "betters" when fighting the correct enemies.

 

What you should be asking is not how to maximize DPS, but rather, what enemies you're going to expect to fight the most often in the late game and picking powersets that either attack their weaknesses, or at the very least, don't suffer from their resistances. Maximizing your attack chain with proper IO slotting will just naturally give you the "leet deeps" you're looking for, assuming you execute your attacks properly.

 

Which, by the way, is basically unnecessary in this game for previously stated reasons.

[SeraphimKensai]

19 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I'm going to preface this first by stating that, generally speaking, I'm a min/max player. I'm a PvPer. I tend to care a lot about fractions of a percent if those fractions mean I cross a threshold or not. Before anyone goes hunting, I gave up PvPing in this game back on Live because I'm a solo PvPer and Fight Clubs started getting boring.

A fellow scholar and gentleman. There are far too few of us amongst the common rabble with a discerning taste separating the meek from bold. Good journey fellow knight errant.

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, Tahliah said:

Mids is a great resource, so be sure to check it out.

 

And welcome to the game!  🙂

 

Er, what?

I didn't join yesterday.

I joined Homecoming November 12,  2019.

I have 838+ posts

I started playing City of Heroes before Episode 2 dropped.

 

I'll never use Mids. I don't need it.

You don't need to use Mids to play City of Heroes.

No one ever did.

 

[SeraphimKensai]

4 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I'll never use Mids. I don't need it.

You don't need to use Mids to play City of Heroes.

No one ever did.

 

I can understand why one wouldn't need it. I'm pretty good with math and have most (95% or so) of the set bonuses memorized at this point so I usually make a build in my head.

 

I do have mids though and occasionally use it for theory crafting toons I don't plan to roll or to give someone else a build (however I hesitate on sharing them a lot of time as I want people to hone their critical thinking skills.

[Saikochoro]

9 hours ago, Tahliah said:

 

Oooh, I want to hear more about this, Saikochoro!  You solo the ITF at 4/8 on a blaster?  What are you running?   I have to have one!  I am serious, this sounds like a great challenge to me, and I want to do it (I'm pretty sure my main can run it on normal settings solo, though I haven't tried, but I know she wouldn't make it through the final battle with Rom x3 at 4/8. . . at least without it being such a ridiculous time suck of death and frustration that finally finishing it would be more annoying than fulfilling, heh).

You know what? I honestly got lost in what I was saying when thinking about about how a damage benchmark. I had mentioned the threads in the scrapper forums and then forgot this was specifically about blasters.
 

I was mainly thinking of fighting AVs solo. And one of the more popular task forces is the ITF. It wouldn’t be much a personally dps test when fighting them as a team so I said solo, but was really only thinking of the individual AVs at +4, as that is a bit different than fighting pylons. Though I get why people do the pylons. I know I’ve seen at least one thread where someone did a Werner rules solo ITF with a blaster successfully. I personally can’t do it. The blaster will have survivability difficulties doing a solo ITF. But if a blaster can do enough damage to solo +4 AVs such as the ones in the popular task forces, then their damage is plenty good enough. 
 

Now if a blaster can do the whole TF solo, then they are absolutely fine to do whatever else. Thanks for asking that question. I’m going to clarify most post. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Saikochoro

[Tahliah]

On 2/5/2022 at 12:19 PM, Saikochoro said:

Now if a blaster can do the whole TF solo, then they are absolutely fine to do whatever else. Thanks for asking that question. I’m going to clarify most post. 

 

I've done it with three and duo'd it, so I think (believe, hope?) that my main blaster can solo it . . . but only on normal settings and probably with not a few deaths and many extras, from Lore to Katie to Shivans, etc.).

 

Appreciate your response, though.  🙂

 

[Tahliah]

On 2/5/2022 at 7:41 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

Er, what?

I didn't join yesterday.

I joined Homecoming November 12,  2019.

I have 838+ posts

I started playing City of Heroes before Episode 2 dropped.

 

I'll never use Mids. I don't need it.

You don't need to use Mids to play City of Heroes.

No one ever did.

 

So my initial response to this was:

 

Quote

 

Oops, just misdirected the comment, meant to reply to the OP.  My bad.

 

But wow, you seem you really nice.

 

 

But then I got to thinking, when on earth did I insult UltraAlt?  Would I even do that?  What the . . . . ?

 

So here is what actually happened:

 

You said:

 

Quote

 

"This isn't like other games.

Just have fun, you don't have to mini-max. If you want to mini-max, use MIDs"

 

 

And I said:

 

Quote

 

/this

 

Mids is a great resource, so be sure to check it out.

 

And welcome to the game! 

 

🙂

 

So to my feeble mind,  I thought I was agreeing with what you said for the OP and then adding that MIds is a great resource and welcoming him/her/whatever to the game.

 

You jumped on this as some kind of insult to you because you have X number of posts and have been on HC since blah blah.

 

Yeah, you seem even nicer now that I reviewed my original comment. Can we be besties?

 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Tahliah

[EnjoyTheJourney]

FWIW, my main blaster has been part of a trio of blappers that successfully completed a +4x8 MoITF under the old rules, with no inspirations as an added challenge, in about 33 minutes. 

 

There were a handful of touch-and-go situations that came up. And, to be up front, the other two players were much more experienced at high difficulty speed MoITF runs than I am (and more skillful players overall). My main goals were to not die and to slow us down as little as possible. 

 

My takeaway from that and similar experiences is that soloing a +4x8 ITF with a blaster must be possible, especially if you allow yourself to use inspirations. 

[Doomguide2005]

<snipped>

2 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

My takeaway from that and similar experiences is that soloing a +4x8 ITF with a blaster must be possible, especially if you allow yourself to use inspirations. 

     It's probably well buried now but there's a thread of that well known powerhouse of Blaster builds a Rad/Devices soloing a Master of the ITF no inspires, no amps, no temps, enemies buffed, player debuffed (on page 15 currently).

 

     So yes I'm guessing pretty much any blaster can solo an ITF.

 

Edit:  completion time 2:48:30

Edited February 7, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[DarknessEternal]

400.

[Doomguide2005]

3 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

400.

No, no pretty sure you want 405.  Maybe 407.🤪

[UltraAlt]

15 hours ago, Tahliah said:

You jumped on this as some kind of insult

 

I've been getting jumped on for a while.

Sometimes it hard to tell what direction things are going.

Some people try to be satirical so that they can get away with mocking people.

Other people can't get away with satire and get burned for it.

 

It's hard to tell sometimes.

The world is like that.

 

You can relate; some other people are like "Well, if you can make a super L337 character without MIDS, then I guess you don't need it."

I could care less about making a UBER character. 

I'm character conception player and some people can't understand that.

I rarely respect. I think I've /respec less than 5 time since I've been back. If something is a little off, that's just extra character flavor to me.

 

I don't even know what my point is at this point.

I'm tired.

 

15 hours ago, Tahliah said:

Oops, just misdirected the comment, meant to reply to the OP.  My bad.

 

That would have been sweet of you.

[oldskool]

On 1/16/2022 at 3:21 PM, Brawlin said:

I was just wondering where the bar was for good. It is somewhere around 400 dps.

 

I think a lot of responses are skirting around the issue of subjectivity here. If 400 DPS is "good" for a Blaster, then 99.99% of the player base is royally screwed. There is no way the majority of players are hitting this number as a baseline. AoE is more likely, but not single target. Especially not on ranged only builds that aren't specialized to the gills. 

The Pylon thread *is not* the majority of this game. It is the upper 1% of the player base that are hardcore min-maxers and genuinely curious about pushing limits. I don't state this to bash those folks, I love them to death and respect the hell out of those contributors. However, this should not be where you place a bar to make a generalized statement about what is good. Maybe, good to you, but just understand this is actually exceptional, even unattainable, to many others. 

Someone else already mentioned a bar of being able to out damage AV regeneration as being a target metric. That's around 150 DPS. That's OLD numbers and much of the game hadn't scaled (until some of the new content on HC) in over 15 years. Back in the old live game the original Pylon thread had people wetting themselves flexing their 170-190 DPS. 

Congrats on sub 2 minute Pylon time. This likely has a lot to do with your years of playing MMOs, being into focused play like that, and doing research on what makes a strong build. You're in a small group of the player base with that level of ability and execution. Please take that into consideration.

[Brawlin]

So 150/200 is the average. 400 is the target for good/great. My original question was what is good dps in CoH, not what is passable.