Sweeping defense changes

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

It's not that the game is easy... the game CAN be easy, if you choose it... but it can be hard too.  Some ATs and/or powerset combos cannot solo and if they can, not all can even do so at +4x8. 

Every powerset combo in the game can solo +4x8 with caveats (IO/Incarnate up, AV’s not guaranteed to be included in package, absolute worst combos ever may struggle with a number of enemy groups). So this here is kind of just plain incorrect.

[Troo]

8 hours ago, Sirius.Games said:

The game is easy, let's be honest.

 

Take the feed back you're receiving. You're not the first to think defense should be addressed and you're not gonna be the last.

While I will not say your ideas are ludicrous, they may need a little more refinement.

 

For my perspective, I've always thought recognition and reaction should be rewarded a bit more in the game.

My preference leans toward anything that rewards situational awareness over just button mashing.

 

Good luck.

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, arcane said:

 

We’ve all been on that point in the learning curve before. Give it time you’ll get better.

When? My brute is already fully incarnate with all T4 powers and all my set IOs are slotted. And on some maps I won't use my judgement power because the added aggro from 5 other groups often kills me. Though I admit, that is only on the asteroid AE map. I could look up the recommended build for my brute and probably do better, but I want to have fun my way.

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, arcane said:

Every powerset combo in the game can solo +4x8 with caveats (IO/Incarnate up, AV’s not guaranteed to be included in package, absolute worst combos ever may struggle with a number of enemy groups). So this here is kind of just plain incorrect.

I have a few level 50s with incarnate powers, mostly low tier ones, that I still will not play above +2/x2. Because they insta-die if I play a higher difficulty. So, while YOU may able to pull that off, please don't assume everyone can.

[Frozen Burn]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

Every powerset combo in the game can solo +4x8 with caveats (IO/Incarnate up, AV’s not guaranteed to be included in package, absolute worst combos ever may struggle with a number of enemy groups). So this here is kind of just plain incorrect.

 

Righter there... you said it... "with caveats... and worst combos ever may struggle..." This means you are acknowledging there are sub-optimal powerset combos for soloing +4x8.  ...which is what I was stating.  

 

This is all about the definition of "soloing."  Can any toon with Barrier Destiny stand in front of a mob of +4x8 and survive?  Probably.  But that's not soloing.  You have to be able to defeat them too.  And how long does it take to get through that +4x8 group? 

 

To me, soloing is not about standing in front of a single group and slaving away at it for a long period of time even if I survive.  If it takes too long to get through a reasonable map... that isn't soloing. 

 

For example, my Ice/Ice controller... can't kill a thing reasonably fast enough to do anything productive even with IOs and my Incarnates.  I am generally wiped to the floor by large upper level groups when solo because partly, the sets and bonuses for my primary and secondary do not lend to "ideal" soloing stats.  If I do survive, it takes SO long to kill a single group, and it take SO long (and TONS of awakens) just to get through a map that it's not worth soloing.  +2x4 is about all this toon can do for reasonable soloing.  And even then, it takes a while at +2.  At +4x8, I may survive for a bit using inspires (including my incarnates), but I will fall in the end.  If by chance I do survive, I have to exit the map, get more inspires, and trudge along again to the next mob.  This isn't "soloing" imo.  

 

Yes, I could also gimp my toon and remove all team buffs and take more power pools to only benefit me, but even still, it would take a long time to kill the mobs in a reasonable amount of time for "soloing."  ...and then I'm gimped for teaming.  So again, not all toons / powerset combos can solo +4x8.  

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

And how long does it take to get through that +4x8 group? 

 

This is the part I notice. I have two controllers, a dom and a defender that can all solo at +4/x8 without faceplanting. As long as I'm 100% on the ball and even then they're going to take a LOT longer to get the job done than my meleers. My fire/time blaster can not. I suck at not dying on blasters. Any melee character I build that struggles too much at max diff gets deleted.

 

But I completely disagree that the longer time taken to get the job done somehow means I'm not soloing. It took me an hour and a half today to get through the first two missions of DASF on Vicious diff and I was most assuredly soloing it.

 

Soloing means one thing and one thing only: You have one character in the map/mission and you're completing the objective, whatever that may be. This isn't open for debate. It's literally the definition.

[Aurora_Girl]

4 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Frankly it makes it difficult to take your suggestion seriously when you demonstrate that you clearly don't have a full understanding of the subject.

 

Can I save this as a post reply template somewhere? 

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, hard no vote 

[Sirius.Games]

6 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Frankly it makes it difficult to take your suggestion seriously when you demonstrate that you clearly don't have a full understanding of the subject.

 

Just because I was wrong about a detail (something I was taught during live but hey a over a decade can make details fuzzy) doesn't mean much in the overarching theme. Any balance change is going to be met with pushback.

 

Frankly it makes it difficult to take you seriously when you demonstrate that you clearly don't have full understanding of how game balance and behavioral economics work.

[Tahliah]

10 hours ago, arcane said:

I think it’s probably too late for a revamp the OP wants. That being said, I would like to pick at something.

 

The current problem with difficulty in this game is that, yes, you can choose your difficulty, but, as long as you avoid the absolute hardest content and enemy types, *+4x8* is actually considered part of the easy end of the spectrum, *even when solo*. If you understand what that 4 means and what that 8 means, that should be a ludicrous statement. And yet it’s not if you know how god damn easy CoX is. That’s slightly messed up.

 

Honestly, I can't stand to run on +4/x8 on my main; it's not "harder," it just takes longer and gets boring as heck really really fast.  Sitting there smashing my attack chain over and over and over while nothing touches me is . . . not hard.  I tend to start watching whatever's on tv and not really even paying attention because it's just click, click, click, click over and over.  And over.  This may occasionally result in my main's demise, but I'm pretty good with that (she still needs death badges), and besides, who the heck cares when the whole thing is so boring that I can't stay interested in it, anyway?

 

I also can't stand to run +4/x8 on lowbies (I literally LOL when I see someone LFG a Posi 1 at +4/x8); this is just an absolute waste of time, assuming, since it's LFG, that the majority of the team will actually be level 8ish and running on red enhancements either from the start or from two minutes into the first mission.  Masochism has its place, of course, and I think it's great that people want to do this and CAN (i.e. have that option if it's their cup of tea).  But omg, not me. 

 

I think that the sweet spot for +4/x8 is the terrible 30s and 40s, when you have your toon kind of built, slotted with IO's, maybe even a few sets/procs by that point, and need the xp to hit 50.  Other than that, it just makes zero sense to me to run at that setting.   Obviously, YMMV.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Tahliah
typo

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

This is the part I notice. I have two controllers, a dom and a defender that can all solo at +4/x8 without faceplanting. As long as I'm 100% on the ball and even then they're going to take a LOT longer to get the job done than my meleers. My fire/time blaster can not. I suck at not dying on blasters. Any melee character I build that struggles too much at max diff gets deleted.

 

But I completely disagree that the longer time taken to get the job done somehow means I'm not soloing. It took me an hour and a half today to get through the first two missions of DASF on Vicious diff and I was most assuredly soloing it.

 

Soloing means one thing and one thing only: You have one character in the map/mission and you're completing the objective, whatever that may be. This isn't open for debate. It's literally the definition.

You are correct, sir! (Yeah, you didn't need me to say so, but I needed it as an opener.) Playing a character without the benefit of other players to help during a mission is indeed soloing! That said, there is a difference between a character that can make his/her way through a mission effectively and a character that takes an hour or longer to clear a 5 minute mission. I guess the statement should be "able to solo effectively" instead. In the example given (earlier in the post, please don't ask me to quote/link everything), having to burn every inspiration in your tray to clear a single spawn of 2 or 3 mobs over the course of however many minutes (I've had a single fight with 3 equal level mobs take me 5 minutes before deleting the character after the hour and a half slog it took to get through the small map on +0/x0 difficulty), then exit the mission, burn your (presumably limited if lower level) inf' on a new tray of inspirations, to go back to the mission and spend another however many minutes on the next group is by definition soloing. It is not however, reasonable for most people. And that hour and a half slog through a small map wasn't even the worst character I ever made. So the point of the game being easy and every character can solo +4/x8 even if they have to be full incarnate to do so is pretty laughable. So as I have said multiple times on this thread and will likely say again because the expectation that a player can solo anything in the game (s)he wants means everyone else can too keeps coming back up: no. This proposal is beyond bad. You want a challenge? Go challenge yourself. On Live they had MAN builds for people to have a difficult game. Then when MAN builds became common place and others were clearing missions with only pool powers, they came up with a new challenge. (I do not remember what the new challenge was. I was flabbergasted people were even doing the MAN challenge.) Again, please don't ask me to have to play according to others' standards. I'm not them. Many other players aren't either.

 

(*Also, these comments are not directed at you specifically. Your comment just gave me a lead in to my thought. Sorry if it seems otherwise.)

Edited January 20, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add disclaimer.

[Frozen Burn]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

This is the part I notice. I have two controllers, a dom and a defender that can all solo at +4/x8 without faceplanting. As long as I'm 100% on the ball and even then they're going to take a LOT longer to get the job done than my meleers. My fire/time blaster can not. I suck at not dying on blasters. Any melee character I build that struggles too much at max diff gets deleted.

 

But I completely disagree that the longer time taken to get the job done somehow means I'm not soloing. It took me an hour and a half today to get through the first two missions of DASF on Vicious diff and I was most assuredly soloing it.

 

Soloing means one thing and one thing only: You have one character in the map/mission and you're completing the objective, whatever that may be. This isn't open for debate. It's literally the definition.

 

Yes, you are correct, that is "soloing."  That is the technical definition of the term.  However, in practice and in game play, "soloing" takes on another meaning and connotation.  Not everyone has an unlimited time to die repeatedly and whittle away through +4x8 group after group in a single mission.   While they may be solo -- the only one on the map -- they still may not be able to finish the task in the time they have due to the increase of mob level and size -- thus, they can't really "solo."

[arcane]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Soloing means one thing and one thing only: You have one character in the map/mission and you're completing the objective, whatever that may be. This isn't open for debate. It's literally the definition.

This. Obviously completion rates will vary wildly, but under this definition every combo can solo once a *solo-friendly build* is completed at level 50. And yes, I have an Ice Controller. And a Force Field Defender. And some Masterminds.

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

Not everyone has an unlimited time to die repeatedly and whittle away through +4x8 group after group in a single mission.  

That won’t happen if you have a good solo build.

[Frozen Burn]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

That won’t happen if you have a good solo build.

 

And still, not every AT and powerset combo lends itself to good or viable solo building for +4x8.  But obviously, we will not agree on this and we are off topic.

[Rudra]

17 minutes ago, arcane said:

That won’t happen if you have a good solo build.

And again, if the game is easy and any character with any power set can solo at +4/x8, then the statement that this won't happen if you have a good solo build wouldn't even exist. The fact you have to have a specific build with specific powers using specific enhancements is the only way to make some characters able to solo (effectively) renders this entire thread moot.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to change "every" to "any" for character and power set.

[arcane]

Played around a little on my ice/time troller in a +4x8 farm because of this thread.. not the best example because time is OP butttt at least it does force you to take the controller epic with power boost that contributes crap to your offense. And yes ice control is “sub-optimal” too. Anyway, I am killing at an acceptable rate for me as long as I pull bosses together once their minions are dead. I have 23 damage procs and 2 -res procs on whatever this build is supposed to be, but I think I could do better if I wanted to build it more for soloing.

 

Now on to some time with my grav/sonic, which I already know melts mobs with its build.

Edited January 20, 2022 by arcane

[Rudra]

40 minutes ago, arcane said:

Played around a little on my ice/time troller in a +4x8 farm because of this thread.. not the best example because time is OP butttt at least it does force you to take the controller epic with power boost that contributes crap to your offense. And yes ice control is “sub-optimal” too. Anyway, I am killing at an acceptable rate for me as long as I pull bosses together once their minions are dead. I have 23 damage procs and 2 -res procs on whatever this build is supposed to be, but I think I could do better if I wanted to build it more for soloing.

 

Now on to some time with my grav/sonic, which I already know melts mobs with its build.

Great. Now take out all your damage procs. Then take out every other IO you have slotted as well. (They give set bonuses.) Ready? Now slot SOs or lower instead. NOW tell me how well your controller handles +4/x8. Why? Because that is how this thread opens. Paraphrasing for space: you don't need IOs or incarnates to solo +4/x8. The OP is about changing how defense works and increasing the hit rate on top of weakening defense to make the game a challenge. So if anyone is going to say the game is easy as part of this thread? My challenge to you is to play the way the OP says you already can. Not a single IO of any kind slotted. Regardless of your AT or power choices. We can argue about how well power sets in any given AT works and how to solo effectively with the "correct" power choices and slotted enhancements all day. The thread is about changing the game to increase difficulty because without any set bonuses or procs, any character regardless of AT using any mix of powers without consideration to power effectiveness at soloing and without any invention origin enhancements which includes all sets in the game can solo at +4/x8. So let's get out of the weeds and address the OP. There are players that can find a way to make even the "worst" power sets work. Kudos to them. Not relevant to the thread. I disagree that any power set is inherently bad, though some are questionable as to their effectiveness, but that is a completely different discussion. This is all about how easy it is to solo the game at +4/x8 without incarnate powers (granted, that is true for some ATs/builds) or IOs, and the "need" to change the basic game to increase the difficulty.

 

Oh yeah. Remove any slotted incarnate powers even if you don't intend to use them for the test. Three of them give passive level boosts (2 only work in incarnate content) and 2 of them at least give passive buffs to your character. And the OP says you don't need those to solo +4/x8.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add bottom paragraph.

[Bill Z Bubba]

28 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Paraphrasing for space: you don't need IOs or incarnates to solo +4/x8.

 

But there's the rub. If the base assumption is horseshit, everything built from it remains horseshit.

[Troo]

6 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

To me, soloing is not about standing in front of a single group and slaving away at it for a long period of time even if I survive.  If it takes too long to get through a reasonable map... that isn't soloing. 

 

Highlighted is the only part of what you said that I needed clarification on.

 

If it took a week to finish a mission with a single player that would count as soloing, wouldn't it?

 

That's pretty epic soloing in my mind (I don't have that kind of time or patience). I'd concede if a player didn't finish a mission maybe that's not soloing, I could see folks saying that is more like 'attempted soloing'. Seems like semantics to me.

 

[edit] I saw this was already addressed. No need to rehash.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Troo

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Highlighted is the only part of what you said that I needed clarification on.

 

If it took a week to finish a mission with a single player that would count as soloing, wouldn't it?

 

That's pretty epic soloing in my mind (I don't have that kind of time or patience). I'd concede if a player didn't finish a mission maybe that's not soloing, I could see folks saying that is more like 'attempted soloing'. Seems like semantics to me.

 

 

That is getting back into the weeds again. Basically, if it takes you more than a half hour to clear a 5-minute mission, sure, you may have soloed it, but you are not an effective soloist. I don't know how other solo players feel, but taking a week to finish a mission as a single player isn't soloing except in the strictly technical sense, it is self-torture. That is likely how Frozen Burn feels too, but he would have to answer that. Now, back to the regularly scheduled tail chasing, I mean circular arguing, I mean OP discussion.

 

(Not to cut you off, but we have been down too many rabbit holes on this thread and it really should have died after the first response.)

[Myrmidon]

/JRanger

 

 

 

It was Page Two and left to me for this? So disappointing…

[Troo]

@Rudra Ha! My edit sniped you.

 

Regardless, I'm a little more relaxed with the soloing term.

 

You're correct about being in the weeds, soling is also off-topic.. That's my bad.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Troo

[MoonSheep]

i’m also a fan of increased difficulty - a more palatable suggestion in my view would be to allow for the TF difficulties to be applied to regular content and receiving an XP/inf boost for choosing them, perhaps 25% 

 

i often run my TFs with enemies buffed enabled. even if running at +0 it gives more of a classic CoH feel and encourages closer teamplay

[Haijinx]

20 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Defense and how it functions isn't the problem.

 

Actually it sorta is.  Not the only problem, but a big part of it.  But its not going to get fixed by making the proposed changes in this thread.  TBH its not going to get fixed. 

 

This game was designed essentially following the old Dungeons and Dragons roll a 20 sided die and see what you get.   Thats why the last 5% is always a hit (Natural 20), and a 5% is always a miss (Natural 1). 

 

That sort of system was never intended to only live on one rail or the other.  They figured the players would live more in the mediocre area.  Which seems funny since it didn't work for the games they took the system from either, really.  Not unless player powercreep was tightly controlled.