Water Spout

[oedipus_tex]

Can I get some validation from my love of Water Spout?

 

I've never seen a numerical analysis prove it, and I don't think a pylon test would bear it out. But in actual play am I am the only one who finds Water Spout more effective than its numbers would suggest?

 

These things are so hard to put a finger on. But I have a Dominator who had been using Water Spout for a long time. I recently respecced him to use Sleet instead. Everything on paper suggests Sleet is the better choice. On teams or versus an AV that's definitely true.

But in actual solo play I can feel a huge difference without the Water Spout. Its damage numbers aren't amazing. Not terrible either. It should be doing a little over 530 damage over 30 seconds prior to debuffs. Somehow it feels like its contributing a lot more than those numbers suggest though. 

Am I mistaken in this feeling or do other people feel that way about this power? Part of me thinks it has something to do with how mobile the spout is, and how if you cast it towards the end of a previous group, it will mop them up and then follow you onto the next pack, so damage isn't wasted. But then the Spout also has a habit of wandering the battle field at times not really hitting anything for a couple of seconds. 

What are your thoughts?

[The_Warpact]

Could it be because of the def debuff your feeling it that way?

[MrAxe]

I love it. I've taken it on my storm controller to add even more chaos into the mix.

[Psyonico]

5 minutes ago, MrAxe said:

I love it. I've taken it on my storm controller to add even more chaos into the mix.

This.

 

I have it on my illusion/storm and I've considered respeccing out of it for indomitable will, but it's just such a good/fun power.

[oedipus_tex]

47 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Could it be because of the def debuff your feeling it that way?

 

 

I don't think so. Sleet also has a defense debuff, and it hits a larger area.

 

What Sleet doesn't have is direct damage, and that could be what's responsible for the perceived difference. Water Spout is mobile, and it moves quickly. 

 

I think what may be coloring my perception is the "competition for clicks" that happens in the opening seconds of a fight. Water Spout will trail after you after you've finished the last pack, so there's less concern about "wasting" it like a lot of other long cooldown powers. My builds usually have the downtime on the power to around 20 seconds, so it's up more often than it's down.

 

The actual damage it does is both good and bad. It's 550-ish damage with an animation time of 1.17 seconds, which in a normal attack would be considered incredible. However it takes so long to Recharge and the DoT takes 30 seconds to fully uncork, plus will only rarely focus fire a single enemy, so the actual DPS is pretty low. Or so it would seem.

The place I really feel it handling its business is when I come up on a big pack of enemies and need to unload a stack of controls. Sleet also has knockdown, but for some reason I don't feel like it creates the same kind of chaos. I've long wondered if the Spout might be attracted to enemies who are currently not mezzed and that's why it feels that way. Nothing in the code I've seen suggests that, though.  

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

Can I get some validation

 

*issues @oedipus_tex parking validation voucher*

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

Can I get some validation from my love of Water Spout?

 

 

You are both strong AND pretty.

[catsi563]

the cat approves you

 

you may feed me and scritch my ears

[The_Warpact]

Maybe it's the human factor of perceived damage. 

You can always try it on a pylon and record the results.

 

 

For those that posted before you all get a "FTW" badge.

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Maybe it's the human factor of perceived damage. 

You can always try it on a pylon and record the results.

 

 

For those that posted before you all get a "FTW" badge.

 

 

I think a pylon test is going to bear out the predictable result, Sleet adding ~30% damage, and Water Spout dealing 550-ish damage. That would track with how this power interacts with most AVs. I don't feel like it makes a lot of impact there.

 

I'm not sure how much I buy into mission run time competitions, but I think that may be a better measuring tool in this case. It's so hard to put a finger on why this power feels so effective. I picked up a Plant/Trick Arrow/Leviathan a moment ago and ran it through some Council missions, and the feeling was still there. When I pressed myself for why it feels that way, I think it may be connected to never feeling like the Spout is wasted. I can click at the start or end of a fight, and because it will follow me to the next pack, it feels like I'm not trying to squeeze as many clickable powers into the salvo. Not sure if this would bear out numerically..   

[The_Warpact]

25 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

I think a pylon test is going to bear out the predictable result, Sleet adding ~30% damage, and Water Spout dealing 550-ish damage. That would track with how this power interacts with most AVs. I don't feel like it makes a lot of impact there.

 

I'm not sure how much I buy into mission run time competitions, but I think that may be a better measuring tool in this case. It's so hard to put a finger on why this power feels so effective. I picked up a Plant/Trick Arrow/Leviathan a moment ago and ran it through some Council missions, and the feeling was still there. When I pressed myself for why it feels that way, I think it may be connected to never feeling like the Spout is wasted. I can click at the start or end of a fight, and because it will follow me to the next pack, it feels like I'm not trying to squeeze as many clickable powers into the salvo. Not sure if this would bear out numerically..   

Well definitely post the results either way.

[UltraAlt]

5 hours ago, MrAxe said:

I love it. I've taken it on my storm controller to add even more chaos into the mix.

 

 

Eris approves of this message.

[ZorkNemesis]

6 hours ago, MrAxe said:

I love it. I've taken it on my storm controller to add even more chaos into the mix.

 

The best option.  It's basicall an extra half-tornado to add to the three you already have, and the four clouds you've already setup.

[Crysis]

DPS/DPA is an absolute measure of effectiveness of a power, but ‘efficacy’ isn’t exactly the same thing.

 

I think you nailed it with the ‘follows me to next spawn’ perception.  Water Spout, like Tornado, is mostly a fire-and-forget power.  It does it’s thing tearing up targets and just keeps doing it until you have to recast it.  Most of your other powers require a bit more effort to bring some pain.  Sleet is great unless that group over yonder says “Hey lookit all our buddies getting ripped up, mebbe we should go investigate?” And they start firing Ranged attacks laughing at your sleet.  No problem…..there goes your Water Spout over to say hi to them, welcoming them to party.  And you did absolutely nothing.

 

Pets are pets and I always find them, even the less powerful ones (howdy Gremlins!) to be nice little emotional support buddies who do their thing without me needing to manage them.  Very different than playing an MM where they will literally sit there stupidly in BG mode waiting for something to throw a rock at me unless I command them to be aggressive.  Water Spout?  She’s -always- aggressive.

[KaizenSoze]

I have tried Water Spout a few times. I feel that it causes too much fear and running.

 

I even tried it with my grav/psi dom who could hold the mobs in a nice clump. Still did not notice a damage benefit over sleet.

[Riverdusk]

Probably my most popular epic pick, at least on my scrappers.  It is a nice one pick wonder.  Most of the other epic pools it feels like I need to go at least 2 powers into them to get the "good stuff".  So, for only one pick into an epic pool you get pretty much free extra damage, a knockup (and not knockback like tornado), a minor stun, and a nice defense debuff.  So, extra offense, extra defense (through control), and a nice debuff for when you fight hard to hit things.  You get a lot out of one power.  Most of my scrappers have a taunt aura so I don't notice too much running from it and often enemies are too busy getting knocked down to run much anyway.

 

Bit tougher choice on my controllers/doms as they are more likely to need to go for a defense shield in the epic and I also just feel like there are a lot of good epic choices for those AT's.  Scrappers don't get something as amazing as sleet for a choice.  

[Zeraphia]

The reason is because well, Water Spout IS a high damage ability. It does a lot more against an AV than just Sleet alone does. It actually has been proven on pylons multiple times in the Scrapper thread to improve DPS (although whether it or Moonbeam are better is a mixed bag.) In solo play, Water Spout is going to be more effective than Sleet in terms of damage, it also gives fairly decent CC. It's a great ability, but it falls off in team settings where everyone has T9 nukes, judgement, etc. and Water Spout tends to not be as apparent compared to the immediate debuff of Sleet. 

 

I think iirc with proper slotting Water Spout deals somewhere in the 1000's of damage (assuming little to no resist) for a moderate cast time making it extremely effective in a rotation.